Senco said my suggested punishment , for ds1, could be 'emotional abuse'.

[Oblomov]

Ds1(nearly 10). Aspergers.
Trouble in the summer, he spent money on internet.
Rude and shows me little respect, answering me back etc.

He is seeing the school counsellor, who I am not that impressed with.

He had a squint, and wore glasses 24/7 for 5 years. Then, this summer, he was told he only need to wear them for close up work. Not 24/7.
He lied to his teacher telling her he didn't need to wear his glasses anymore, at all. Even though I sent in a note, saying, close up work, which he didn't give to her.
He wasn't wearing them at all.I found out. Happened again.
I told him, if he couldn't be trusted to wear them, for close up work, he would have to go back to wearing them 24/7 again.

So yesterday I found out he hadn't worn them for 3 days.

I told him he would have to wear them 24/7. As agreed. He cried and pleaded. I said no. I will talk to Dad. I left the room. He ran after me, crying and pleading. No I said.

Then he pleaded and pleaded and I lost my cool. I really shouted. "Enough I said, you will wear them, because I have said so. That's is the end of it".

(He is very vain, hates wearing glasses and was the only boy who wore glasses in his year. He has been teased about it.)

"I knew you would do this. Shout at me. The counsellor said you would. She told me that you are unfair and unjust to me. "

That pushed me over the edge. Now I've got the counsellor undermining my parenting.

He is a martyr. Thinks that I am too tough on him. Whatever he has told the counsellor. He thinks she has said that she believes him, she is validating his feelings that I treat him unfairly.

She may not have said that. But that is what he THINKS.

Dh came home.

Ds is very vain recently. and has grown his hair longer. All the boys now flick their fringes, regularly and think this is cool.

Dh says , I told you that I wouldn't put up with you being rude to mummy. The way you speak to her is not ok. You don't treat her nicely, or with respect.

You have now been seeing the counsellor for 6 weeks, and it isn't getting any better. I told you that if this continued, that I would cut your hair. Cut the long fringe off. Because I know you love it. You don't seem to care about losing tv or dvd's, but you do care about your hair. But I told you that I would. Shave your head ( we always used to get the clippers out and shave dh, ds1 and ds2, on a long setting, an inch long).

I threatened this to you, shaving your head. And you've been rude to mummy again.
Dh said, ' if you are not careful, I really am going to shave you head boy. You need to think about this.

Ds1 was upset in school. Not himself, said teacher. He told her that daddy had threatened to shave his head.
Senco called me in.
Saying that if we did, he would never forgive us. And that we would have nowhere left to go, with punishments.

She said "it could be considered as emotional abuse"

I do hear what she is saying, about him hating it so much, he would never forgive. And I do appreciate the bit of, if we did do it, we would have nowhere left to go.

But I took offence, or didn't like her comment about it being 'emotional abuse'

Or do you think she is right?

I have woken this morning. Thank you for the posts last night.
I gave them a lot of thought.
I am very sad. And very ashamed.
And quite tearful.

I agreed with dh last night, that I would take a step back. Not talk to ds1. But only if I had to. Care for him. But not in an uncaring way, not talk to him. I just mean not talk about any of this.
For atleast a week. Until Dh sees the school counsellor.
I see this as a protective method. Mainly for me. But also for ds1.

Thank you for the messages this morning.
Especially Maria, who posts always hit me !00% spot on.
Many other peoples do too. So, thank you. I know you talk sense. And thus , it makes me even more sad.

I am a fab mother. In difficult circumstances. I am saddened that I ended up here.

vjg13's reporting is not fair.
I was only responding to Clam's post : "That's what they did to Jews in WW2".

I think reflecting in your own behaviour and addressing it is really brave.

Also, cutting yourself some slack is brave.

I am glad that you are doing both.

It is easy enough to get caught up in a battle of wills dynamic when well, but you are not well and must be feeling exhausted.

I think Aspies can find it so hard to fit in and have any clear sense of self-worth at school, that when they start to do things like grow their hair or become interested in the way they look, this is to be encouraged as a sign if growing independence.

My son, as he has got more confident, has started to grow his hair (not to hide behind) but because he likes it like that and likes the say he looks. I see that as a really good sign.

I hope things get better this week. It is good to step back and just try and do the good things with him and not the ' discipline 'things.

Good luck,

Loads of typos there - sorry, bloody ipad

OP well done for taking a step back. Please do talk to him at some point and acknowledge you have made a mistake. Do work with the school, they have his best interests at heart too.

And let ds make his own mistakes. He might try and grow his hair long, let the school monitor that and reprimand him they see fit.

Cut yourself some slack - it is an extremely difficult job caring for a child with AS. I was at a seminar on mental health and autism on Tuesday attended mostly by practitioners and they were on about how important it is to switch off from your job and not do double shifts. Unfortunately, as parents we do not get this opportunity....

Hi Oblomov

I've worked with children on the spectrum and their families for 12 years and the stress is unbearable, having my own children I can honestly say I was terrified of having a child on the spectrum because it can be so unpredictable in its course, it's like extreme parenting in that it takes what's typical - not having a clue what you're doing and guessing at what will work -and ratchets it up to maximum intensity as so much of what works is counter-intuitive and very specific to your child.

So I'm not concerned about all the identity stuff... and I don't think it is emotional abuse. I think it is sheer bloody desperation.

Of course that doesn't make it okay... but there's not much point harping on about that.

I agree you really need more support and if I were you I would seek out a social care referral. Unfortunately respite etc is so minimal that it's unlikely to be what happens here... but I'm not sure your son is the issue. I think you sound worn out, depleted and are thinking massively negatively as you feel trapped.

I think mostly what you need is personal support, free time and counselling. I don't think you are in the right headspace to be thinking about strategies focused on your son.

Do you think you might be depressed? Or more accurately do you think antidepressants might help? They can even if you are in grief or severe stress etc. Just as a crutch at a difficult time.

You can think about parenting strategies etc later.

It wasn't me that suggested cutting his hair, back to the old style of short'ish. It was dh. And it was suggested in a very calm time, when dh was discussing with ds1 why he was so nasty to me and so rude to me.
Ds1 said he "didn't know". Dh said that he didn't know what to do anymore to make ds1 be nice to me. Ds1 said he didn't know either.
That's was was when dh suggested it.

I think at the time, ds1 had just said at me, :
"just remember, you can't make me do anything. I know that and you know that", So just remember that next time".

and he says things like "yeah, and what are you gonna do about it"

I tell him, don't speak to me like that.

Sometimes, he speaks to me when he doesn't know dh is upstairs listening. On these few occasions , dh has been very shocked, by how badly, ds1 talks to me. Dh said he never quite believed it was that bad, until he heard it for himself.

Yesterday ds1 told the senco that he had been very rude to mummy.
He was horrible to me, but he didn't know why.

When dh discussed with him, why he wasn't being nicer to me, after the 6 weeks of school counsellor, he said that "he was trying really hard, but it just wasn't working".
Dh said that he didn't think that ds1 was actually trying that hard.

Camhs have said they have no funding for any help to ds1. This was when we went back to them when ds1 wanted to die. Camhs has offered us nothing, given is nothing. They say there is nothing available for us.

I waited 1.5 years for CBT , but they only had 6 weeks of counselling, and she suggested that I needed calming techniques because I was a coping with a difficult situation. But she never told me what, because my sessions finished.

Senco suggested yesterday that we should be offered family therapy. My Gp told me last year that there was a 12 mth waiting list. She did not refer me.
It would only be me there, because dh has a 1,5 hour commute, each way, and would not be able to attend weekly sessions.

I will try and look at some of the links, from previous threads, today and tomorrow.

How am I supposed to work with school? they offer nothing. He has no IEP, no support. They say he is "fine". They told me he would never get a diagnosis. And since he has had one, they have done nothing to help him. Its me with the problem. They aren't making any suggestions. Because they don't see there as being any problems.

How are things financially? Any hope of funding longer term cbt for yourself?

Mindfulness and Acceptance and Commitment Therapy good for situations like yours, too. I have a friend who swears by ACT, she was a parent of a child I worked with when I was an ABA tutor in his teens now and says it has been invaluable. I have used it a lot for my own depression and OCD. You can use self-help eg Russ Harris The Happiness Trap or The Reality Slap.

I wouldn't have been able to benefit from it without antidepressant support though as I was in too negative a place and I wonder if it's same for you now?

Also more and more support isn't going to be available publically. NHS trusts are given heavy financial fines for breaching 18 week waits and are understaffed so it is looking more and more as though the most people will get is assessment/diagnosis and a generic 6 week something.

It's dire but it is what it is.

Working9-5. I have seen my GP, my counsellor for CBT, the school counsellor, and I have been assessed by The pyschatrist, at my diabetes specialist team.

They all said that I was not depressed. They believe I "struggle to cope in very difficult circumstances".

I do kind of wish that I could have some AD's. I have talked about it many times with my Gp.
5 years ago, when ds2 was born, he was tongue tied but hospital decided not toe tell me. He screamed almost all night, off and on. And ds1 was at his worst. I was diabetic hypo'ing and fell down the stairs twice.
I kept going to Gp surgery, for ds2's weigh ins, and meeting with my PNG, and going on walks and coffee's. I begged everyone for help.
Then a different Gp said I I was an unfit mother, and given AD's. I tried 3 types and they had no effect.
I changed GP, because she said I 'not fit to be a mother' and my new Gp, who I still have 6 years later, was horrified. She took me off the AD's immediately. Telling me I clearly wasn't depressed. But have a very complex needs and difficult circumstances. And I just needed help and support.

But I have never had any of this so called help and support.
Or that which I have. I seem to be incapable of applying any strategies that work. Like I can't hear what is being said to me. or I can't absorb it. Or I can't apply it. Like i am so stupid I can't grasp the basics. Which is odd because I am an intelligent woman. Extremely Open. Caring. And my mum is a counsellor. And both me and dh are physically and emotionally demonstrative and caring and very cuddly.
It's as if I have such a mental block that I can not work out what to do with my son.

And yet I find ds2 so incredibly easy. To understand and work out.

The school told me that there was nothing wrong with my son. Suggested I might have munchausens. My mum was not convinced. She thought it was not me and it was ds1. And she paid for me to privately see the Paed.
I had already been on 2 parenting courses. And questioned myself. What's wrong with me. why can't I parent my son? I come from a totally loving family myself. I have a lovely husband. Why is my son not doing what he should/ what I expect. Are my expectations too high.

In the end I was told, I was applying all the rules, but they just didn't seem to be working and they didn't know why.

Eventually through the Paed, I got back to camhs, and they diagnosed AS. Despite the school objecting.

But nothing has got better since.
And no. I can't work him out. I can't understand why, if he loved me, he would answer me back so much and make me so sad, so miserable, so stressed. Affect my diabetes so badly.

I try to work out why he does things. What's making him do this. How can I make this better. Most of the time, I am simply none-the-wiser.
And I definitely don't know how to change it/what he does, or how to accommodate him, or how to encourage him, to stop him, for example being so rude to people. He is very rude, to others. Like when I took him tot he hairdresser, he was very rude to her.

And when we got home, I tried to talk to him. to help him understand that what he said was not ok. I want to help him so that he is nto rude to others. To benefit him. But we don't seem to get anywhere.

I encourage him greatly. Praise him. Invite his friends round for tea, to build his friendships. And find nice James bond party bits for his party bags. I work my socks off. And in return I get this battle of wills and he is so unloving towards me and so nasty:

" why should I be nice to you. You've never really looked after me"
Which just leaves me speechless.

As others have said, its a battle of wills, a nasty ride and I so want to get off. But I don't know how.

So, you are not getting the support you need. It's not fair, really it isn't. CAMHS is such a lottery, depending on which area you live in.

Personally, I found going on ADs (Citalopram, in my case) very helpful. They have enabled me to deal calmly with a child with SNs and to continue to be a good parent (I hope) to my other child. Could you go back to your GP and discuss this again?

School not recognising your son's SNs seems to be pretty standard, unfortunately. I often felt that the school regarded me as a mother who didn't discipline her son properly and blamed my lack of parenting skills on imaginary SNs. The truth is, they are not qualified to make this judgement and they often get it wrong for this very reason.

You are probably your son's punchbag for dealing with his stress, sadly for you. Him being rude to you doesn't mean he doesn't love you. If anything, it shows how secure he feels with you. But that doesn't mean you have to accept it. My son with SNs has been very rude to me in the past. I told him how it made me feel, then walked away. I tried not to take it personally, although it was difficult to do that.

The NAS have a helpline you could call for more help on dealing with a child with Aspergers.

I can't understand why, if he loved me, he would answer me back so much and make me so sad, so miserable, so stressed. Affect my diabetes so badly - Somehow, you need to get past this. Our children - with or without SNs - can be rude and cruel to us. It doesn't mean they don't love us. They may not realise how sad, miserable and stressed they make us feel because they are immature and self-centred. This is normal for a lot of children and, gradually, as they grow up and see us model better behaviour, they grow out of it. Children with Aspergers are obviously going to struggle more with these issues as they don't always realise they are being rude or recognise your response.

I am angry with CAMHS on your behalf. You obviously need more support and I'm sorry you aren't getting it. I think you should ask for another referral when/if you see your GP about going on ADs (if that's what you decide).

I can't understand why, if he loved me, he would answer me back so much and make me so sad, so miserable, so stressed.

Several reasons.

1. He's on autopilot. It's a learned behaviour. He's admitted that he doesn't know why he does it. The only way to break learned, automatic behaviours is to remove the triggers. Some are easier than others.
2. While it's not the case for everyone with AS/ASD, your feelings are your feelings and he has no idea of them. Even if you tell him in plain language, it's not what he's feeling, so makes little sense.
3. If he winds you up, he's getting a reaction. It's not a good one, but it's predictable. Like it or not, your reaction is a learned behaviour, too.

I missed one:

1. He doesn't know what else to do.

Does he understand what "rude" means or is it just a label he is applying because of the reaction and being told so ? Agree with pp he certainly gets a reaction to bad behaviour but maybe he can't discriminate between the types of behaviour and reaction. Am shocked you re getting so little support , please go back to gp and tell him you are near crisis point and see he can raise your situation as more urgent with CAHMS, family counselling etc. The situation has escalated completely out of proportion to his original disobedience and lying.

I think your beyond crisis point. Go back to your gp and spell it out very clearly. You can no longer cope, your health is in danger. You don't enjoy being with him as you are not being supported to deal with his condition.

Your not a crap mum or person. We all find our kids very hard at times. But I do have head space after a shit experience to digest when happened, why and what to do next time. For example one day ds had some change from school for dad ( dinner money I can't remember) his teacher gave it to him to give to me. He decided it was his. I told him no as I didn't agree in principle that he automatically though he had the right to it as it was in his possession

We got the car and he would not hand it over. I insisted he did. We argued so I took it. He was repeatedly shouting " give to me!" So I calmly said no. This went on and I said if he didn't stop our weekly trip for tea and cake on the way home wouldn't happen. He would not stop shouting. So we drove past the cake shop. All my kids and me was upset by this but I decided I was going to stick by my guns. But he would not stop. We got home and was still banging on for me to hand the money over. Shouting more and more. I shouted at him and he then literally blew up. He was beyond reason but then later calmed down.

Looking back it was because he gets jostled at pick up. He was tense. He didn't need much more to tip over the edge. It was my fault - so what if he wanted to hold the coin? I could have got it off him after a snack at home. Once in a state he didn't know how to let go so had to brake down completely to move on. Yes I was right to go through with withdrawing cake but I could have ignored him in the car. Yes it's totally his doing but so what. That's the way he deals with things.

If you don't have the head space you can't look back and think what was that all about? I could fight with ds all the time but we rarely argue. He can be explosive but rarely is. Mostly because I can see when to diffuse him. But I had to learn that.

It's not easy. It really isn't. Recently he is getting better at expressing feelings and that has been a real insight to some I knew he felt

Good example, 2boys, but I do hope your DS didn't 'literally' blow up .

He wasn't left all over the walls - but it felt like he was. Lucky he doesn't do that too often, but I think he could be like it a lot. The more I engage in a argument with him and try to reason the more it escalates

That sounds so much like my DS when he was younger, 2Boys.
BOOM! Krakatoa!

What support do you think I am going to get from my gp?
I have already exhausted camhs and NAS.
There is no money, no allocation to fund any support to ds or me.

Well, for a start, couldn't you get ADs from your GP? That might help you cope better.