New to SN how would you have got him out of this tantrum?

[OHforDUCKScake]

Son 6.5, has regular tantrums. Weekly and we arent very good at preventing them and worse at talking him down from them. He can almost never be talked down from a tantrum, he has to do a full circle. Usually an hour or so long.

5pm dinner time (early but we all start the day early, go to bed early etc - this is rules by the kids, what works best for them).
DS refuses to eat dinner, says his tummy hurts (this old chestnut), was fine when he had an ice lollie and hr before, and seemed fine when playing out with friends before dinner.

So I tell him to lay on the sofa, or if its bad, go to bed and I'll come up after my dinner.

He chooses sofa but shouts and screams when I say no to TV. (im not having tv distract his brother further and neither have dinner).

After 30 mins DS decides that he does want his dinner, so we are behind schedule and that usually means adorable tantrums from him at bed time.

He finishes dinner, and starts screaming that he doesnt want bed time and he wants more TV.

I say that we arent getting into a row, we are going up, running a bath and he can join us or not.

30 more mins of him screaming from down stairs 'come and get meeeeee' im not having a bath etc etc etc

Hes had sun cream on so we say baby wipes if no bath. And bath in the morning.
More screaming and shouting.
his dad puts on a fun 'baby wipe monster/tickle monster' persona to get it done. DS screams and shouts. (He would have done without the babywipe monster).

Refuses to get undressed or let us undress him. Refuses to brush his teeth.

Constant screaming and shouting.

I settling his brother.

I go to DS's room to see DS on his coverless bed (hes kicked them off) kicking his dad in his back and screaming. His dad has his back turned, arms folded riding it out, Ive heard him try and calm him down for ages. Hes resorted to 'waiting out the tantrum'

I tell his dad to go dowmstairs and have a breather while Im take over.

Another 30 mins and the only way to placate him is with pencils and paper.

It works, he sleeps.

But not before saying to me "Mum, next time I, naughty at bed time can we do drawings again?"

The bloody drawings added a good half an hour on, NO im not doing it every bed time.

Im at a fricking loss because BOTH out children are very needy for completely different reasons and I camt be doing for 2 hour long bed times ending with only 30 mins of drawing.

Im the midst I tried distracting him with an errand. I read that worked.

It didnt.

Great. You know, none of us have got it perfect either, and most of us have gone through quite a number of strategies to figure out which ones work.

I think one of the hardest thing is that on top of what is a very difficult parenting job, there is the additional desperate worry about the future, both immediate and long term, the guilt of not having tried something earlier, sooner, more intensely, the pressure from outside to appear in control all the time over something that really cannot be dealt with using standard parenting effort, and then the exhaustion of simply having to live with the exhaustion of it all.

I'm sure you're doing better than you think you are.

I have a big weighted blanket that i use with DS1, when he can't sleep in winter (it's too hot for most of the summer) but we also bought a weighted snake from Amazon, which is great when one of them is unsettled, but not wanting to be covered. The snakes are no longer stocked, but there's a turtle which may be useful for heavy hugs when it's warmer. You could also try a lap blanket, which would be a lot cheaper and a good way to find out if the extra weight helps. DH sometimes improvises when he has restless legs in bed by chucking a couple of pairs of jeans or a folded patchwork quilt over his legs.

DS1 doesn't respond particularly well to rewards, unless they're immediate and meaningful. It was cold hard cash (to spend on lego!) that finally got him clean and dry in the day at almost 8 and matchbox cars that got him through visits to the supermarket after it was rebuilt and became too large and different for him to cope with. He likes doing a lucky dip in a box of cheap tat (pencil toppers, erasers, sheets of stickers, etc) at school and we're currently back into cold hard cash, trying to persuade him to re-expand his constantly repertoire of foods and simply become less afraid of trying new things (this evening we negotiated a trial of rice, next time i cook it - £2 for 3 spoonfuls or £1 for one! He earned a pound for trying an onion ring, the other evening!)

weighted turtle, btw
www.amazon.co.uk/Weighted-Turtle/dp/B0083TICPK/ref=sr_1_8?s=kids&ie=UTF8&qid=1370810204&sr=1-8&keywords=Sensamart

Ok great more ideas. Im not too awful at using sewing machines, perhaps I should get a second hand one again.

ouyre I know exactly what you mean about the cash for lego, prior to that matchbox cars and the lucky dip. Do we have the same son?!

Perhaps I should do a lucky dip back at home for a full week of no bed time tantrums. This worked for potty training actually. When no reward chart touched the sides.

And the weighed star or turtle great!

You have no idea how much better I feel now, I really feel like I can try something more. Ive got a proper action plan, GP demand referral, change dinner time, longer bath time, weighted blanket, sewing machine, weighed star, lucky dip bag.

This is brilliant, I dont mean to sound like a repetative plonker but THANK YOU.

You're very welcome, Duck. As has been re-iterated in this thread, evem kids with the same diagnosis can be very difficult and it's up to us, their parents and champions, to find out what makes them tick.

I second (third? nth?) the suggestion that you really need to push for a referral. Over the years, he has aquired various letters after his name, namely ASD and ADHD. They do fit and medication for ADHD has made a huge difference to his ability to function and communicate. I had one of those ring a ding ding moments when i first read about Pathological Demand Avoidance, though. His ASD trumps that, but behaviourally, PDA works and the LA ASD outreach person also made a link and asked me if I'd heard of it. This is why my focus is on choosing battles and finding currency (in calm moments) rather than intensively training out of a behaviour in the way that we have to with DS2.

I hope you can reach a good outcome with this particular battle. It does feel good when you do. DS2 let me just play with him, this afternoon. We had a 2 way following of each other's lead. He didn't back off and expect me to take over when I approached him while he was playing with the doll's house. I put a chair at the table. He added the rest. I put a few plates and cups on the table. He found and added the rest (OCD behaviour like the chairs, so slightly expected) but he then picked up some pots and pans and put them on the table, too and tapped my hand to make me look. These little things are lost on parents of only NT kids.

What are you going to do if he does well on day 1 and 2 but not day 3?

What if he still tantrums but tries hard and the tantrums are less dramatic?

even
different
it's late!

Though my two do difficult very well :o

You need to have a plan that rewards even slightly improved behaviour iyswim, just in case the work is just too much at the start until it becomes routine ti be sensible.

Perhaps a score out of 10 for 'being sensible' rather than not tantruming and his target for the first week is 25, second week more etc etc.?

Morning, we have it all set in place.

We have a cheapy lucky dip (that I will sort this week) that he can dip into after 5 days of good behaviour at bed time. (7 would have made more sense, but that goal would be too far away for him).

Drawing has GONE. Im in process of ordering a weighted blanket.

Story time is back in.

Earlier dinner time and longer bath time. And I think no bath with his brother as well. Which puts a right spanner in the works but there we go, we have to work this out.

He seems very keen with the lucky dip idea....

Star I missed your above question. If he gets better, he gets his DS back.

Im also making an appointment this morning. I'll ask for a different gp.

What exactly do I say? What is it I want from this appointment? I need an action plan.

At the moment I think Im going to ask them for a paed referral.

Is tha all Im demanding?

Ask what the process is in your area. CAMHS (Psychologist) or Community or Developmental Paed. Make a list of behavioural concerns. Tell them he is likely Dyspraxic and you think this could be occurring alongside neurodevelopmental issues. Don't leave until referral is agreed. Let us know how it goes.

Right Im writing all that down, thank you. I got an appointment at 11am, my son wont be with me but I cant right now, I cant have him hearing me point out 'bad' things about him. Being criticised to a doctor is the last thing he needs to hear.

It would be helpful to write a list and hand it to the doctor, so that you don't forget anything but also so that they have a written record of what you discussed (rather than their interpretation) which might just spur them into action lest you accuse them of not acting in the future.

I went without DS the second time when we discussed behavioural issues. The first time I was more worried about physical like hypermobility and extreme clumsiness, plus pain writing , so took DS.

Definitely take a list. Our GP sent mine to the paed to add weight to the referral. She had read it in great detail so knew a lot about DS before the appt even started.

Ok so Im not sure if this was good or not.

The previous doctor had referred my son.

I asked todays doctor why he shrugged and said he couldnt help. She said it was probably to not get your hopes up but he has tried.

So I said, this referral might not work? She said she doesnt know.

I said, well if he shrugged, said he couldnt help and didnt tell me about the referral in case nothing came of it, then it sounds as though there is little out there to help my dyspraxic son (amongst other things) which seems ridiculous.

She said she didnt know. The referrals been done so I just have to wait.

Sounds a bit crap though.

But perhaps the referral will be alright and they are just being unhelpful im not sure.

Its a place called Hampden something in Eastbourne. I googled without success...

Of course there is help. Very little information often because that would empower people to make demands on funding.

Ask for the name of the paed you were referred to, the dept and tel. Number.

Then call them. Ask the sec to read/fax/send you a copy of the referral and give you an approx waiting time whilst registering you ability to take a cancellation.

Ok I will call them now and ask.

Ok, I haven't read the whole thread (I'm supposed to be studying and not on mn!) but a few suggestions that sometimes work with ds1:

Logic. I remain deadly calm and answer all his tantrummy accusations with logic and reason. I point out that I'm not controlling the situation, he is. He's being punished for x, which was his choice to do. As soon as he does y, the punishment will end and we can all be happy again, it's his choice whether he wants to do that. This probably won't work with a lot of kids but ds1 is a logic based control freak, giving him the choice of controlling the situation, counter intuitive as that sounds, often brings him round quicker than me trying to dominate him (which just gets me beaten up)

His current favourite past time is reading, it used to be the ds. So he gets 2 warnings, then he loses his current book/ DS (this is x from the point above). He gets told calmly what he needs to do to get them back. This has to be achievable in a short timeframe, ie speak to me nicely, calm himself, do as he's told. Return the item the second he complies. Long term punishments, extended earning back simply do not work, compensation has to be immediate.

We did have some OT and she suggested wrapping him tightly in blankets and squashing him with pillows or balls to give him deep sensory input. Those tactics only work if he asks for them. He also has tactile fidgets and stuff to mess with which help sometimes, he's a sensory seeker so getting sensory input can sometimes nip the hyperness leading to a tantrum in the bud.

I let him read in bed. They go up at 7.30/8 and I don't really moderate what time they settle, they aren't allowed lights on but he has a collection of torches and on these hot bright evenings light comes in the velux window. He's a lot easier to get to bed if he knows he can wind down in bed at his own pace. In your case I'd allow the colouring but do away with the parental input aspect and just let him colour quietly before going yo sleep.

If I think of anything else I'll post again, good luck!

Thanks Summer.

Ive tracked down the place star Ive been calling ever since but it just goes to answer phone. Im hoping to get through to someone, if not I will leave a message.

Can you find another way round? Like a switchboard that can put you through internally/give you the direct line/give you name or email address of the sec?

Not that I can see

Ok well I called 9 times and left a message. I will keep trying tomorrow.