New to SN how would you have got him out of this tantrum?

[OHforDUCKScake]

Son 6.5, has regular tantrums. Weekly and we arent very good at preventing them and worse at talking him down from them. He can almost never be talked down from a tantrum, he has to do a full circle. Usually an hour or so long.

5pm dinner time (early but we all start the day early, go to bed early etc - this is rules by the kids, what works best for them).
DS refuses to eat dinner, says his tummy hurts (this old chestnut), was fine when he had an ice lollie and hr before, and seemed fine when playing out with friends before dinner.

So I tell him to lay on the sofa, or if its bad, go to bed and I'll come up after my dinner.

He chooses sofa but shouts and screams when I say no to TV. (im not having tv distract his brother further and neither have dinner).

After 30 mins DS decides that he does want his dinner, so we are behind schedule and that usually means adorable tantrums from him at bed time.

He finishes dinner, and starts screaming that he doesnt want bed time and he wants more TV.

I say that we arent getting into a row, we are going up, running a bath and he can join us or not.

30 more mins of him screaming from down stairs 'come and get meeeeee' im not having a bath etc etc etc

Hes had sun cream on so we say baby wipes if no bath. And bath in the morning.
More screaming and shouting.
his dad puts on a fun 'baby wipe monster/tickle monster' persona to get it done. DS screams and shouts. (He would have done without the babywipe monster).

Refuses to get undressed or let us undress him. Refuses to brush his teeth.

Constant screaming and shouting.

I settling his brother.

I go to DS's room to see DS on his coverless bed (hes kicked them off) kicking his dad in his back and screaming. His dad has his back turned, arms folded riding it out, Ive heard him try and calm him down for ages. Hes resorted to 'waiting out the tantrum'

I tell his dad to go dowmstairs and have a breather while Im take over.

Another 30 mins and the only way to placate him is with pencils and paper.

It works, he sleeps.

But not before saying to me "Mum, next time I, naughty at bed time can we do drawings again?"

The bloody drawings added a good half an hour on, NO im not doing it every bed time.

Im at a fricking loss because BOTH out children are very needy for completely different reasons and I camt be doing for 2 hour long bed times ending with only 30 mins of drawing.

Im the midst I tried distracting him with an errand. I read that worked.

It didnt.

But your post did read slightly to me like he is ruling the roost and you are scared to discipline him in case his reasons for objecting to things are down to SN, as then it would be unfair.

Have totally been there.

It depends a lot on level of understanding tbh. Ds ASD has very little understanding, has loads of sensory probs, is non verbal and has severe anxiety. If ds is in a tantrum then we simply have to stay calm and wait for him to calm down whilst trying to protect property, ourselves and himself. With dd also ASD but with more understanding I judge them on their merits. So for example if she has a tantrum because she is anxious or unwell then I will try and help her to calm down. If she is aggressive I will remove myself until she has calmed down. If however she is being difficult because she doesn't want to do something that is important like sleep in own bed then I will insist she does it or will wait until she has cal ed down and then get her to do it. I also would pick my battles. It sounds about from your description like you might be offering too many choices or getting too drawn into discussion with your ds. So I would say that if it was a school day then maybe he does need to have a wash. If it isn't then maybe go low key and say ok no wash if you're tired. You can then deal with a quick wash in am when tantrum has gone. I would also distance yourself as giving your ds an audience for this behaviour may encourage him. by needing to take turns to calm him or placate him you are probably unintentionally giving lots of drama and attention. Is he getting something else other than the original demand. Maybe try and do abc charts to see what is happening before he starts acting out and also see what he is getting from it. If he gets special 1:1 time with you drawing then maybe it would be better to just have this as part if his time before bed or during the day so he doesn't tantrum to achieve this. I am not saying the is an easy answer to all this. I have found its a bit of a mixture between doing what most parents do and also adapting to your circumstances. So what will work for dd would never work for ds. So I adapt, get it wrong sometimes and try and work out the triggers and avoid.

Ok sorry I disappeared for a bit. I had a good cry, took offence a bit, the pulled my socks up and came back.

Ok so DS is 6.5 and no he hasnt been diagnosed. The school has given us a questionnaire from a teachers dyspraxia text book, and she gave one tom his teacher. From what I saw he was positive for 98% of the questions and im interested as to what the teacher will put.

When we did the same for an autism assesment ai scored my son 2, and his teacher scored him considerably higher. Even now, just thinking about it I wonder why? But I did that test with the "theres no way he's autistic" attitude, so perhaps it made me score wrong im the first place, or feel defensive when I saw the score of the teacher.

When DS was 3 his nursery teacher (the manager) mentioned the word dyspraxia because he was so clumsy. But he was my pfb I was pissed off that she suggested that he was anything less than Einstein . Ok not literally, but I was very pfb.

When he got to 6 and he couldnt use a knife and fork, his teeth, put his socks on, etc etc the I started to research.

Now Im told there is no OT. The school says there isnt one. The GP shrugged at me, theres no OT.

we have to go private. Until he has an OT there is no diagnoses or review etc

So yes, my own 'diagnoses' is through my own extensive research but Im a well educated individual, I dont have munchausens by proxy and Id much rather my son didnt have an extra struggle but he does.

And unfortunately its clear from the outset that its going to be a huge struggle or huge expense to get him help he needs.

Fanjo quite the opposite.

His Dad and I are sick with guilt at how hard we have been on him all these years and now we find out he isnt a pain in the arse (our words, I know, I know, we feel fucking awful NOT that we ever said it loud of course> and he actually probably has SN.

We definitely havent let him rule the roost, but yes since out dx suspicion we have very much been guilty, placating him....

Thats not the opposite of what I was saying..it is what I was trying to say exactly :)

Don't feel guilty.

My DD has SN and can also be a pain in the arse.

aye, DD is also a PITA

ASD is a massive PITA, we know it, she knows it too

I meant now he is sensing you are placating him and ruling the roost a bit maybe.

Fanjo, yes yes and yes.

Thats totally it.

He is seeing it, and he's running with it too!

Don't feel guilty..

You obviously havent been over harsh over the years or he wouldn't feel.secure enough to play up now :)

DS has terrible tantrums sometimes. I can usually preempt and divert them, though don't always get it right.
One time he was really screaming wildly and didn't have a clue what to do, it was far worse than I had seen before. Out of desperation I rolled him in my duvet and lay over him. I had read on here that deep pressure can bring comfort to some children with SPD. It worked....he calmed down within a minute or two.
As a result I researched weighted blankets and made my own. He has learned to trot off to wrap himself in it if he feels like he is getting wound up.

Poltergoose thank you for the book tips. I will be buying a good few on Amazon this week for sure.

I have to say, Im not into self diagnosing usually, although I a, guilty of asking, researching, applying and trying to understand. I dont have munchausens by proxy, and I certainly dont want my son to be difficult for want of a better word.

And with regards to an actually dx, one thing that became strikingly obvious from the outset, is that this is not going to be easy. Not because the DX may be complex in itself, but because there is no one out there to diagnose him. Unless we have the money.

Which is fucking typical.

Apparently there are OT's for nursery age, OT for senior school age. But absolutely nothing for any child in between,

This makes me incandescent with rage. Is that usual or just my area?

I live in a 'wealthy' place too. Although we are the few on the arse end of that.

Ds1 was seen my a community paed who referred us onto physio to test for dyspraxia. Not OT. Round here you don't get to see OT at all. We were given a booklet containing lots of flow diagrams to work out what OT techniques to perform to help with his sensory issues. (He was not dx with dyspraxia, but acknowledged he has sensory problems....now being assessed for AS).

one thing i've learned (amongst the myriad of other stuff here)

is how services differ vastly all over the UK

DD was assessed, DXd and is still being supported by CAMHS - even for OT after her sensory assessment.

she doesn't have a comm paed, not seen the Ed Psych (yet )

she did have a SALT assessment on the NHS though, referred by our uber-supportive GP

There has been no mention of a paed, this is from the paed GP.

I am however planning to go back next week, to see a different GP, to beg and plead for something more. I though they'd at least give him exercises for his hypermobility, if not and the worst comes to the worst than we are going to have to ask our family to help financially because we don't have a penny for private help we could save, but it'd be a year waiting.

No CAMHS involvement here either.
We did have one physio session for hypermobility though.

Can you ask SENCO for advice? Ours has been helpful, telling us who to contact and making phone calls on my behalf.

2 boys with ASD who can both be massive pains in the arse, here. I should have tape recorded their bedtime spat. Better than tennis :o

And what works for DS1, who has massive build up to it all day meltdowns doesn't work at all for DS2 who screams and stomps and gets it out of his system. The only thing their episodes do have in common is a huge sensory component. We used to throw a big cotton quilt over DS1, much like you would a noisy parrot. When DS2 starts laying into me, quietly walking him across the room and sitting him on his own might work after an hour or so. Sitting him on my knee (with his back to me) holding him firmly and rubbing his arms and legs, and using his weighted snake if it's handy doesn't stop the behaviour much quicker, but is less stressful for both of us. While DS1 needs the weight to calm down, that sort of constraint simply enrages him further, though it used to help when he was younger.

Backing up the advice to analyse the tantrums/meltdowns to work out what precipitates them. Are they out of the blue, or is there a slow build up? Do specific events trigger them (bathtimes? changes in routine from the usual? wet weather? sunny weather? etc etc) Does he seem particularly tired on the days when they happen? Does he need a poo? (something that has historically made DS1 bath and meal adverse) Or is there simply a y in the day?...

If a bath is a common trigger, would a daily dunk in the bath help him to normalise it as part of his routine and overcome any possible sensory aversions? If not, would building an incentive into bath night routines make them seem less miserable for him?...

And, of course, talk to him when he's calm. Find out what he likes and dislikes about baths, dinner, or whatever the problem is, and what he thinks could make it better. Then is your time to negotiate solutions and compromises

"Wealthy" places are often the tightest with public services, btw, since the Tory councils are more interested in enterprise and money than actual people who need help. If we moved a few miles south to North Yorkshire, I'd probably have a lot more angst filled threads, here.

We have been having some help from sturgeons for our sons challenging behaviour. A few things they have suggested which help us.

1.Avoid confrontations when you are feeling stressed - when we unpicked some of the biggest battles there was usually something go on with dh or myself added into the mix. We have got quite good now at swopping over so if dh can see I am losing control he takes over and calms the situation or vice versa. If you are by yourself even going into a different room for 5 minutes might help -

1. Make yourself a 24 hour clock with the days timetable. The idea of this is so the child can see that something he likes is coming after whatever demand you are making of him be it having a bath or coming to sit down for a mealtime. If you always have battles at the same time each day is there anything you can change to make the day run better. For us ds2 will typically have a meltdown on Sunday night over eating his dinner and having a bath mainly because he starts to realise school is approaching (he hates school) so we make tea a bit earlier and bribe him and his brother with TV before bed.

1. Give you son ' a special job' to make him feel important and act a distraction when things are bubbling up. This should be something he enjoys doing and the idea is not that the job is done perfectly but that the child thinks he is doing well . The example given to us for a similarly aged child to yours was washing the car. We have found that giving our sons responsibility for certain tasks helps e.g. ds1 who would normally have refused point blank to go to the DIY store was given the role of finding a roll of wallpaper that was the closest match to our existing wallpaper.

If I've said bath, then bath it is. No negotiation, no terms and conditions, just bath.

If that is kicking and screaming then so be it and it'll take an awful long time with a consequence of no time for books at bedtime.

If it was a particularly troublesome situation then I'd repeat it the following day even if he didn't need a bath, so that he could repeat the learning (rather than avoid it out of fear that it will go the same way). I try and tackle the behaviours head on, and when I see one, I practice and practice resolving it.

I wouldn't discuss anything at all with regards to the bath.

I think the only difference between a child with SN and NT is that children with SN can be more narrowly focussed and delayed maturity.

Your ds sounds really hard work, and I do sympathise, but you absolutely have to gain control.

Perhaps hire a behavioural analysis to come and observe you and him at home and make some suggestions.

I would forget the big things like bath and begin work on complying with little things that are less dramatic or important. In ABA you begin with really simply things like 'touch your nose' with an immediate reward to practice the benefit of complying with instructions. You could start out like that as a game. 'Here is a game. Mummy is going to ask you to do something funny. When you do it straight away you get a minstrel'. Then spend half an hour asking funning things. Once you have the game sorted and engaged in, you can start to increase the demands. 'Come and sit at the table - whehey - minstrel'. 'Take you top off, - whehey minstrel'.

Just read you're feeling like a failure as a mother from the responses here.

I'm sorry if that is what you think people are saying. I didn't read it like that.

SN DOES make the situation more difficult. Much more difficult. The child will most likely have more extreme reactions and aversions due to sensory problems, maturity issues, rigidity and own agenda issues.

That all calls for 'extreme parenting' as well as some understanding of the underlying issues. However, some things just need determination and tenacity and an ability to ride through some unpleasant situations.

I'm sure your parenting is excellent and if you had a child who was NT everything would be great, so you DO have to acknowledge the SN. But regardless, your ds can't be allowed to behave like that at 6. If so, what happens when he is 13?

Thank you for all your messages, sorry for being a over sensitive pillock last night, have such a lot on our plates as a family that is really is the straw that broke the camels back.

Can I please rant about tonights episode?

So we have a routine. A strict routine which we have stuck to since he had colic when he was born. Its simple, upstairs, bath, teeth, pyjamas, bed.

Tonight, draw a simple digram of each with a clear simple space for a tick next to it. Outside his room all ready for him to tick after each task.

I explain to him this morning, and 20 mins before bed what I expect from him. That I will not be placating him tonight, bed time will be as normal (and wasnt it fucking just ).

I could tell at dinner time at 5pm that he'd kick off at bed time. I could tell by his giggly hyper behaviour. But I continued as normal.

Sure enough hes in the bath and reFUSES to stand up to be washed (he needs help with being washed) he gets told again and again, and finally he gets washed. I think his dad had to be physically firm with him to get it done.

Then the teeth. He puts it in his mouth but refuses. Says the tooth paste tastes horrible. Well this is a brand new one that hes pulled out the bag. Wonderful.

He has a choice of 4 tooth pastes if its that bad (not that he even knows the others exist, always best to keep things as simple as possible), theres screams and crying, refusing to brush his teeth, not allowing his dad or I to do it.

Lovely screaming tantrum which is as fun as usual. Refusing to put on his pyjamas, generally being as adorably difficult as he always is at bed time.

He almost NEVER behaves like this during the day. This is always saved for bed time.

He should be asleep by now, but guess what. His dad is up there drawing with him, the exact fucking thing I told him we WONT be doing. So Im seriously fucked off with his dad now too.

I can also hear DS crying so his dad has obviously withdrawn the option of drawing.

For Fucks sake when will this end?

I just really need to know, be it 1 year or 3, I really really need to know when bed times will stop being so horrific.

I know no one can tell me this.

His punishment is having his DS taken away tomorrow.

Too many demands in so little space I'd say.

Yes he'll need to do them all but for the moment stick to the ones that really matter.

A 6 yr old can probably be washed well enough just from sitting in a deep bath. I would probably not allow him out until his hair had been done once a week, but I wouldn't discuss it or get into an argument about it and I'd think carefully about how I could do it quickly and efficiently.

Teeth are also important.

however, PJs are not. You might if you shrug and say 'fine' and then carry on bedtime as usual he'll change himself or ask for help. The first night he might see if you mean it but honestly, what he wears for bed or doesn't isn't much of an issue.

What you need to aim for is as much compliance as possible and this will involve avoiding making demands unless they are a)easy for him to comply with, or b)absolutely essential. The rest can be battled another time.

Take away his choice of toothpastes. YOU choose one and insist that he uses it. If it is about control he'll throw a tantrum and demand another one. At this point you can either give in, or what I would do is say that if he does his teeth with no trouble tonight he can have the other toothpaste the next night.

Ive just gone ape shit with his dad. i can not believe he undermined me like this. He has never done that before and Im so disappointed. Its so important and he ignored everything I said.

He did exactly what I did last night with the drawing.

Exactly what I told them both we wouldnt be doing.

DS said to me last night when I left his room "Mum, if aim naughty tomorrow can I draw with someone then too?"

....