New to SN how would you have got him out of this tantrum?

[OHforDUCKScake]

Son 6.5, has regular tantrums. Weekly and we arent very good at preventing them and worse at talking him down from them. He can almost never be talked down from a tantrum, he has to do a full circle. Usually an hour or so long.

5pm dinner time (early but we all start the day early, go to bed early etc - this is rules by the kids, what works best for them).
DS refuses to eat dinner, says his tummy hurts (this old chestnut), was fine when he had an ice lollie and hr before, and seemed fine when playing out with friends before dinner.

So I tell him to lay on the sofa, or if its bad, go to bed and I'll come up after my dinner.

He chooses sofa but shouts and screams when I say no to TV. (im not having tv distract his brother further and neither have dinner).

After 30 mins DS decides that he does want his dinner, so we are behind schedule and that usually means adorable tantrums from him at bed time.

He finishes dinner, and starts screaming that he doesnt want bed time and he wants more TV.

I say that we arent getting into a row, we are going up, running a bath and he can join us or not.

30 more mins of him screaming from down stairs 'come and get meeeeee' im not having a bath etc etc etc

Hes had sun cream on so we say baby wipes if no bath. And bath in the morning.
More screaming and shouting.
his dad puts on a fun 'baby wipe monster/tickle monster' persona to get it done. DS screams and shouts. (He would have done without the babywipe monster).

Refuses to get undressed or let us undress him. Refuses to brush his teeth.

Constant screaming and shouting.

I settling his brother.

I go to DS's room to see DS on his coverless bed (hes kicked them off) kicking his dad in his back and screaming. His dad has his back turned, arms folded riding it out, Ive heard him try and calm him down for ages. Hes resorted to 'waiting out the tantrum'

I tell his dad to go dowmstairs and have a breather while Im take over.

Another 30 mins and the only way to placate him is with pencils and paper.

It works, he sleeps.

But not before saying to me "Mum, next time I, naughty at bed time can we do drawings again?"

The bloody drawings added a good half an hour on, NO im not doing it every bed time.

Im at a fricking loss because BOTH out children are very needy for completely different reasons and I camt be doing for 2 hour long bed times ending with only 30 mins of drawing.

Im the midst I tried distracting him with an errand. I read that worked.

It didnt.

Is his ds being taken away important to him?

If so, he can earn tokens for it. Perhaps one token for each completed task relating to how many minutes?

So the night before he'll earn how many minutes he gets on the ds the following day. Make a visual chart where he ears the stickers/ticks against each task you require of him. The more challenging tasks can earn more minutes.

So, not just 'have a bath without complaining' but 'Get in bath with first ask - tick', Stand up with first ask - tick, Wash upper body - tick, lower body - tick, hair - tick tick, get out on first ask - tick.

You should include some really easy ones there too like 'go upstairs - tick' etc.

Make it really visual and clear what he has to do, and since there is a lot start with just a few.

would THAT WORK?

star he has no choice of toothpaste. Ne never has. I said above he has one, we keep it simple, he knows not of the other tooth pastes and never has.

As for the pyjamas, he isnt wearing them. He rarely does because he wont put them on.

He still kicks off.

If he has a bee in his bonnet we could rain that child with brand new lego toys and chocolate rain drops from his ceiling and he would STILL kick off.

Pour his dad a glass of wine. He is only struggling as you are.

You WILL both get to the bottom of this. It is possible, but you have to be friends and come up with a strategy together.

Can he earn drawing minutes? Based on how well he does as well as/instead of DS minutes?

'If he has a bee in his bonnet we could rain that child with brand new lego toys and chocolate rain drops from his ceiling and he would STILL kick off.'

Right. You need an independent person to come and observe and give you specific strategies.

Try these lot. www.bacb.com/

We have used simple reward charts so many times and he has shown absolutely no interest with them.

We also tried something else, we took his toys away and he earned the, back with good behaviour.

He didnt care. So much so, he ended up with a completely bare room Nd thats no exaggeration. It was a sorry sight. I gave up after a week, put them all back and put up another reward chart which he shrugged at.

We tried a marble jar at his suggestions, again it lasted an hour before he stopped caring about its existence.

What works for most children, has never worked for him.

And please believe me I havent done things by halves. ive tried and tried and tried,

I suspect that there is a whole bunch of sensory stuff going on that makes it difficult for him to 'do as he's told' plus he does seem to be able to get away with it.

That isn't a judgement, more an observation. I am not implying that you aren't putting your every fibre into the effort required to improve things. However, I think you have probably got into behavioural patterns yourself that you just cannot see and need someone outside to have a look at what is going on.

Thanks star

And OH, I am certain you can have a better life. I am certain that you can figure it out.

Tonight and last night he got away with it. That has never happened before, and if theres one thing for sure it will never be happening again.

Ok polter our bedtimes work like this - on the dot,

5.15 dinner time.

5.30 quiet play down stairs.

5.45 upstairs

5.50 into the bath.

6.05 out and teeth

6.15 into bed, he then has 10 mins to do as he wishes so long as he is in bed. This is usually a book or he plays with a hero factory. More often than not (if he hasnt kicked off that is) he'll prefer to go straight to sleep.

6.25 kiss, lights off and sleep.

Unless hes being a PITA and then its more like 7.

The problem is, the more he kicks off the more tired he gets because tantruming is draining. Coupled with a later bed time make him more tired and even more prone to tantruming. It gets into a terrible circle.

So prevention is better than cure.

But Im buggered side ways if I can prevent them.

The drawing stuff got removed earlier. No way is that entering his room again.

To be honest the pyjamas never go on.

But how to we cut back even more from what I said above?

When I explain what I expect from him at bed time, I keep it extremely simple. I never talk about the dinner part, the down stairs part or anything like that.

I mention pyjamas, but honestly theres no way taking the word or expectation of pyjama wearing will prevent his tantrums.

Unless of course Im misunderstanding what you mean?

Also, I need to point out the drawing thing was only last night and tonight.

The tantrums have been forever.

For what it's worth, if reward charts and other motivators do not have any effect, I have a hunch there is something more subtle at work, either sensory or developmental. I would push for referral from GP to whoever is the relevant service ie CDC, CAMHs, Developmental Paed. Nonetheless, Star's suggestions have been spot on. I reckon positive enforcements as per Star would be worth pursuing a bit more. Meantimes, for you.

Deffo agree, stories together before lights out are hugely important on many levels.

Noooooooo no no no no! Put the bed time any later and you are guaranteed a tantrum every. Single. Night.

At the moment the tantrum is only about once a week (this week we've had bad luck but I blame that on Drawinggate).

Tiredness is an enormous factor with his tantrums. He cannot deal with triedness whatsoever, he never has. Even as a baby he's get himself in frightening tizzes because he was slightly tired.

Ok stories together - back in!

Thats fine. The '10 mins on his own' has only been going for 2 weeks.

To be fair though, he kicked off just as much when we had story time. But Im still willing to put it back if needs be.

My 6.5 year old goes to bed around 9pm each night.

Thank you, Im going back to the GP this week.

Thanks so much everyone for taking the time out to help me sort through this. I really, really need you right now.

Jesus Christ, mine cant cope past 6.30pm.

Get him past 6.30 and he is guaranteed a tantrum. 100% no doubt, he cannot cope.

6am

Is he an especially early riser?

And trying to get him to sleep in later doesnt work. We have tried all that too, reward charts,gro clocks etc etc etc.

We have tried putting his bed time back later really slowly. By 5 mins for a week.

It doesnt work. It ends horrendously.