School pressuring for ds to return to school - Star, Agnes and other helpful people

[claw4]

Ds hasnt been to school since emergency A&E mental health assessment a few weeks ago.

He was assessed by CAMHS in A&E, after threats of wanting to kill himself etc.

CAMHS told me to decide on a daily basis whether ds was able to cope with school and if school had concerns about him not attending then to phone her.

School receptionist phoned me yesterday and asked when ds would be going back to school. I told her i had already passed on CAMHS number to SENCO and if she had concerns then to phone and speak with CAMHS.

She said they had and CAMHS had said it was up to me to decide on a daily basis, and apparently CAMHS had also said that ds would be ok to attend some days.

She told me that ds was missing education and his absence was being marked as unauthorised and that the EWO would be informed. She asked that i phone everyday to tell them if ds would be attending.

So they expect that ds can go from needing me to go immediately to pick him up from school and take him for an emergency mental health assessment, to returning to school as if nothing has happened.

They expect me to phone the school receptionist daily, which i did this morning and its bloody ridiculous. Conversation goes "ds wont be in today" school receptionist "why is that" me "he wants to kill himself" school receptionist "oh ok, thanks for phoning"

'The plan doesn't matter too much as long as everyone gets it and DS isn't left to do nothing academic at all - he may like that too much and you'll have murder re-establishing any kind of education afterwards ;)'

I don't really understand this sentence tbh. Learning is supposed to be enjoyable and rewarding, not a chore.

Oh claw. This is something I'm getting to know more about, through experience rather than reading on her.

I've currently got dd off school, won't talk about or do anything school related. My advice so far has been contradictory, to say the least.

Education say: get her back ASAP no matter how!

Medical say: don't force her as its counter productive and could make her worse.

Mum/dad say: we know dd best and can see how her life is being affected by school. School have no idea how compliant dd is and would quite happily go off to school with figures of authority. BUT and it's a major but, they get to go home and not face the consequences of forcing her into somewhere she's not feeling safe.

Claw Just posting to let you know I'm still here really. I keep thinking about what alternatives are available to you, but really you are on the only available path at the moment. I know what that is like.

Giving up the fight isn't an option because the fight will continue anyway but just without your ability to steer it and that carries great risk. It's a hard place to be.

And for your fighting so far you have nothing to show yet. Nothing has improved for your ds. But it will do. These bleak times will come to an end.

You're very much admired on here for your tenacity and the way you hold it together and most of us know that other life difficulties don't hold back until this one is resolved, that you have to cope with them alongside.

I felt quite lonely in real life as real life people have got NO IDEA that what I was going through is even possible, and raising it would ring alarm bells that I probably wasn't quite all there, with my conspiracy theories and paranoia.

But you're not alone. You're really not. Not here and actually not 'out there'. The HoC meeting I went to had a room full of people with stories like yours and no professional, charity or MP was shocked or surprised. It was accepted that what is happening to you can happen, does happen and frequently.

Not sure if that makes it all the more worse or better actually, but I suppose what I am saying is that I am also counting down the days for the private EP, the tribunal, the CAHMS sessions etc. and I bet a number of others here are too. I'm so desperate to see you on here telling us your ds is safe at last.

Starlight
You ask about my sentence about not enabling sweettea's son to do nothing academic at all for an extended period because that might be counterproductive.

You said 'learning should be enjoyable and rewarding, not a chore'

I see what you are getting at and it's impossible to disagree with that principle. Learning should indeed be enjoyable and rewarding.

However we are also dealing with reality and in reality lots of 12 year old boys are quite lazy creatures. I know I have to lever my 11 year old out of bed in the morning with a fork-lift, and left to his own devices he would happily play on the computer all day every day for the next several years.

Now I am not suggesting that Sweettea was thinking of allowing her DS to lie in bed or play on the computer all day, he obviously needs a change and a mental break, and this is a good thing. But if he will be out of school for a while, as seems likely, it would not be helpful to not have any educational provision made or any expectations for learning at all for any extended period. And unless you are lucky to have one of those incredibly rare children who does their homework unbidden with a big smile on their face, then yes there may well be some elements of doing school work at home being a chore. Hopefully it won't all be a chore. But frankly I am sure we would all agree that learning that sometimes tasks aren't great fun but they 'just have to be done' is a good message to learn.

The experience I have had before in working with a number of youngsters who have been out of school for extended periods is that those where the school has not been helpful in providing some links and continuity in providing some work during the enforced absence have often then had a great deal of difficulty in adjusting to a new setting. They sometimes have had no structure at all, no demands at all, and they have got into a pattern of sleeping in, playing the computer late, etc. Again, I'm not suggesting this will happen to sweettea's son, but just adding in what I hoped was a helpful snippet that sometimes boys - especially stressed and emotionally vulnerable boys - do tend to quite like not having any school work and they can be quite resistant to being asked to return to a school when they didn't like the last one and have had a nice time in the interim not having to do any school work. If sweetea - who knows her son best - thinks this is irrelevant or unlikely, then of course she will ignore that snippet, and rightly so.

I hope that explains things more clearly.

Willow that is exactly how i felt until about 2 days ago, i felt as if i was losing ds. Last time ds was signed off of school by GP for about 4 weeks, then plus 6 weeks school holidays, so he was off for about 10 weeks. His injuries healed completed and his mood improved very quickly, he was my happy ds again.

This time, although his injuries are healing, his state of mind wasnt. Ds and I have always had a really close relationship, its like im his rock, the one he tells everything to, the one who gets comfort from, he literally puts me on a pedestal and i can do no wrong, he writes me poems and is usually very OTT with affection and love, but only towards me, no one else.

That all changed this time, it was like i was the enemy, like he hated me, like he was angry with me. He wouldnt talk to me, he didnt want me near him and everything i did or said was wrong.

The last 2 days, i have begun to see glimpses of the old ds back again and there is no way i am risking him going back to the dark place he was at as im terrified that he may not return next time.

I have fought long and hard for the last 9 year to get DS the help he needs. I am very much alone, out there, isolated, even on here. I am coming closer and closer to parking my car in a river with DS and me in it, I feel it's the only way forward. The only thing stopping me is seeing the outcome of the support once in, which in DS's case possibly won't happen until adult services.

What I'm trying to say is if I can do it with less support in a horrendous situation I hope it gives you enough to carry on, knowing your not as alone.

Hang in there x

Cornybeef, with the situation as it is at the moment, with school, LA, SW etc, i feel have to be seen to be making an effort and being 'reasonable'. I am already refusing to have anymore meeting with school. I need to seen to be 'trying' at the moment, regardless of what i think if that makes sense

yes that makes perfect sense claw

Sweettea i would VERY much agree with dont force her. I have been forcing ds to go to school for years and this is what it has resulted in.

Ds has been hospitalised for 10 days due to self harm becoming infecting and needed IV antibiotics and almost had to have his finger amputated. We are now at a stage where he has regressed to hurting himself with objects and wanting to die. All escalated cries for help, because no one, but me has been listening for years.

Star, so glad you are still here, hearing stories about your fight and the fights of others have inspired me to carry on and given me hope.

I think knowing that others are experiencing similar, does actually help (although obviously you wish they were not) I have doubted myself plenty of times and i think if i had been alone in my experience, it would have made me doubt myself even more, when it feels like the whole world are telling you are wrong, but you know in your heart that you are not.

Ive come a long way since first joining MN, back in the day! and a lot of you have shared my journey. I have come from being a timid little mouse without any confidence to question 'experts' or 'professionals' to being a totally pain in the arse and thorn in their side, who they cannot just fob off anymore, thanks to you, others and MN

Devient, thank you things can only get better, right!

I'm glad you put the exclamation on it and not a question mark

Don't look at it as things will get better, accept it for what it is, fight it regardless of how long it will take. We do it, as it's for our kids.

I wish I could say it gets better, lets say different.

I am a realist never an optimist, however even years down my line, I still hold hope that one day we will get there. It's all down to me, no good relying on others including profs. Just a shame DS has issues I don't know how to help. Then, neither do the profs otherwise we wouldn't be in the position.

I think whats made our case drag is, DS doesn't look good on paper, lacks accountability and costs too much iyswim.

You will get there, take each day as it comes x

ilikemysleep i cannot speak on behalf of Sweet, but with ds he has very legitimate reasons for refusing school, they are not meeting his needs, they fail to understand his needs totally and he receives very little support or understanding.

The consequence of this, is that ds's self esteem is extremely low and he is now incapable of completing school work, as he feels he is 'stupid' and 'rubbish' and gives up immediately, so it undermines his confidence again, its a vicious circle. He cannot sleep of night, not because he is out of routine or lazy, but because of anxiety, playing computer games over and over or in ds's case lining things up is how he deals with stress and anxiety, take that away from him at times of stress and it would tip him over the edge.

I dont think its a case of emotional and vulnerable boys quite not liking having to do no school work, but of them being incapable of doing it.

Although i do agree that children obviously need to learn, for the emotionally/anxiety damaged children, it has to be done very carefully and very gradually, bearing in mind they probably cannot sleep of a night too, they might self harm, they might have stopped eating for example and i regard, putting sleeping, eating and reducing self harming first before school work.

Devient, i was thinking more along the lines of ds improving or his state of mind at least, rather than the fight for provision. Agree totally this will be a never ending battle.

I think we have similar with ds, looking good on paper, formal testing and functional ability are worlds apart. On paper ds looks like a very bright boy (well he is!) but him applying the same logic to real life, just doesnt happen

I agree with Claw, legitimate reasons here for being scared of school, school not meeting his needs and failing to understand the needs, no support or understanding too.

My Ds's self esteem isn't low, however he has no interest in much. Being severe learning disabled it's more anger, aggression and violence, along with the anxiety of having to do something that he is so fearful of. It's also being SLD why they disregard what he says, as what does he know!! Well I'm sorry but his behaviour, sleepless nights, nightmares, refusal to do anything away from the house or car tells me the little he can say and do, is making a huge impact on his life as a whole.

I also agree it needs done carefully, so as not to regress any further, as well as making a positive change so life isn't as debilitating.

I would also like to add, i have 2 'normal' boys and would agree that they didnt like doing homework, they didnt particularly like going to school and would have much rather stayed home, stay up late, play computer games all day, if i had let them, i think most kids would! I would often have the 'i dont feel well' and 'the teachers dont like me' and 'i cant do the work, its too hard' etc, etc and i realise most of this was for my benefit and to get out of going to school.

I operated a 'if its not bleeding or broken, then you are going to school' policy, spoonful of calpol and out of the door. But i felt safe in the knowledge, that once in school, despite their complaining, they were fine.

I think most kids kick up a fuss about going to school sometimes, but the big difference is how well they cope once there. If you have a child who is struggling with work, struggling to understand, struggling with social interaction, struggling with sensory issues etc, etc and receiving very little support and understanding, the school day must be extremely difficult for them. Forcing a child to endure this on almost a daily basis, is going to have consequences.

I think we are all in agreement. I also agree that, as in Maslow's heirarchy of needs that welfare comes first, and that what is required academically of a vulnerable child out of school should be small in quantity initially, carefully handled, easily attainable, and built up gradually as the child manages. I wasn't intending to imply anything different.

I also wasn't intending to imply that anyone would withdraw their child from school on a whim or casually. Clearly there are valid emotional reasons. Having a child at home is no walk in the park. I wonder if my post read as thinking that people would keep a child home because they (the child) are lazy. I really hope not because that's not what I mean at all.

And finally - I haven't mentioned forcing anyone to go to school....I was suggesting trying to arrange a small amount of school work to come home. Perhaps I am being paranoid about being misinterpreted!

I don't think anyone misunderstood ilike. We're just a bit rough here

We analyse people's words obsessively because so many people speak bollocks to us in real life and we want to get to the truth and the concrete.

Incidently, what is the route to becoming an EP?

Are you thinking of joining the dark side Starlight?

It used to be - undergraduate psychology degree, PGCE, 2 years at least of teaching, masters degree plus dissertation and project

Now it's undergraduate psychology degree
At least 1 year relevant experience with children (mostly in education, or SEN eg with NAS) but usually more than 1 year
3 degree doctorate plus thesis

If you didn't do a psychology degree you can get round that by doing a masters level 'conversion' in psychology in Education or Educational Psychology.

Not sure. I need to retrain in something. I didn't think I would be able to work for a LA ever again but I might be changing my mind.

I don't think I could do the course with such young children atm though as from my limited research it looks rather inflexible.

I read somewhere that there was a government push (and funding) for new naive EPs to go into LAs and do as their told!?

Hi, just read your posts and can't possibly imagine how difficult this is for you and your family.

The school must be horrendous, none of your children liked going there and they don't seem to want to come up with solutions. However it does seem as though the ideal solution is that he goes to school happy and he can't do that if he's refusing to go, so you have a bit of a chicken and egg situation going on. The medical services (CAMHS etc) are implying that school is the right place for him - if it isn't, then why have they come up with that conclusion? Have you seen the reports? You need to get to the bottom of this, how are the assessments wrong and can you prove that they are? If you can get a true assessment you won't be having this problem.

It will be best for you to appear to work 'with' the school. Even if it's just a front, you have to show them that you are prepared to talk to them and are not ruling any options out.

In the end you can only do what you can, at home. The best is to try to make sure he is continuing his education. You ought to try to take control of his computer time. Having screen time will just make them want to stay up late and add to a vicious cycle of late nights, over-stimulation and lack of daylight (can add to depression). Screens should be switched off at least 30 minutes before bedtime.

Games can be addictive and if he is addicted this needs to be sorted out. It is possible that his behaviour is a result of addiction - he could be sabotaging school and self-harming in order to stay at home and feed the addiction. Would you say that's a possibility?