School lateness punishments, neurodiversity and the law

[VividDenimTiger]

Posting here for traffic really. DD 14 has had issues in secondary school- we suspect ADHD to be honest. I am unravelling my own mid life ADHD traits at the moment too.

For DD, one of the things that manifests in school is persistent lateness. She just can’t organise herself to get to lessons on time. The school has now brought in a punishment for lateness where anyone late more than 5 mins gets sent to a punishment room for the lesson. Needless to say DD is now missing loads of lessons because of her lateness.

I know that it’s annoying for teachers when kids are late for lessons but it feels like this policy unfairly targets kids, like my DD, who might or do have some issues with timekeeping because of other things going on.

Aibu? I am trying to unravel some of this for DD (and myself) but I am really angry about how punitive this policy is- it feels like it disadvantages kids who genuinely have issues with organising their time and themselves. The corridors are really busy in school and she gets upset and overwhelmed and that doesn’t help all of this.

Oh come on! The OP and others are suggesting minor adjustments which will make her capable of accessing the curriculum and getting her GCDEs and oiving a full life. Benefits have never been mentioned. You are being ignorant.

What they do at home and what the OP has already tried are not the subject of the thread but it's equally important to note that you cannot gradually teach a disabled person to grow out of their disability. You can teach them to manage it the best way possible over time with the right support but they will always have the disability.

Well that may be the outcome when school continues to fail her over and over again.

Parents can and do support their children to access situations outside of school but it makes no difference to school experience if the school refused Reasonable adjustments (like in OPs case).

In the spider example imagine being able to cope with 10 spiders for an hour providing you had a squishy but school is not happy about this progress they want you to get rid of the squishy and manage 30.spiders straight away. Even through you have made huge progress and are clear that you need that squishy they have decided to punish you instead of recognising the progress.

Not only are school refusing any reasonable adjustments. They are punishing pupil for their unmet needs and withholding her access to education

This is not right. This will never be right

Was about to say the same.

Plus, as mentioned above, work environments bear little relationship to huge secondary settings - it’s the reason - prior to VAT - many parents opted to send their kids to small independent schools. They’d have less overwhelming environments, get their GCSEs, have more time for their nervous systems to adapt and mature so that they are better able to cope with busier noisier environments at a later date. They aren’t incapable, but their development follows a different pathway to NT children. Most get there in the end.

50 years ago, this would not have had to be expressly catered for by parents because the local schools were much smaller. You moved from a tiny pond (infants) into a less tiny one (juniors) and then into a slightly bigger one (secondary) before going into the real world (uni or work). Most places of work are not dissimilar in size/human occupancy than an infant school. Few work places have 2000 people onsite transitioning across the rooms and buildings every 50 mins en masse. Secondary school settings are the issue here.

Yes, the worrying thing from the "suck it up buttercup" school of thought in the comments is that there could well be teachers and senior leaders at the OP's DD's school which is why the comms and support are rubbish. My own kids aren't ND but I've seen the difference that our primary has made to children who benefit from flexibility, understanding, creativity, and a child/person centred approach. What are the barriers to learning/attending school/engaging and how can we best remove those? What does this person need in place so that they can access the experience? How can we as a school meet this child/teenager/learner where they're at? And the huge importance of positive relationships with families.

No-one was suggesting school is a business, people were discussing how it works in business.

You know this, so what point were you trying to make here?

You literally posted about businesses yourself

I think this was building on the narrative running through some PPs that kids who cannot survive school will not be able to function in the work place and that workplaces/businesses can’t be as accommodating as people expect of schools? Ie, that we do them a disservice to pander to their SEN needs. This is obviously very disingenuous, as many businesses are excellent at offering support and many people who struggle at school go on to be successful in the workplace (due to having had the correct support in school and due to the natural progression of maturing neurological and nervous systems) - so I think @Scamworried was pushing back at this?

This is where we are heading, Our L.A has just announced that in our schools 54% of primary aged children and 48% of secondary aged children now have ASN. The situation is out of hand, costing a fortune and impacting on the other 50% that have their education interrupted every hour of the day. The impact is huge.

How are ear defenders costing the LA money?

Parents provide these so there isn't a cost?

How does ear defenders disrupt other children's learning?

But that stat conflates children with actual SEN needs with children who have ASN due to socio-economic factors [parents who have never read a book with their child and send them to school in nappies because they have never bothered to toilet train them.].

It’s important not to muddy a real social issue over parenting quality (what used to be called neglect and abuse, but we’re too afraid to use those terms now) and interventions and programmes that need to be put into place in areas of deprivation with actually organic/neurologically proven SEN needs.

If someone has poor executive function , I am just wondering HOW she would be able to organise herself to leave lesdons 5 minutes early? Is it on the teacher to remind them?

Easy - preprogrammed timer on a wrist-warn device. Silent/vibrating alarm and a ‘leave early’ lanyard.

I think its a fair point and I dont know the answer but I do know they would not expect a teacher to remind them. I was a teacher woth ADHD and there is no way I would have remembered to remind a pupil of that. It wasnt my duty. I guess when the teacher says pack up that's her prompt to quickly leave while everyone else takes their time and stands behind their desks etc.

Also my dd missed her piano lessons regularly despite reminders. She had a watch but forgot to charge it.

I gave up on in-school music lessons for this reason. Neither child or teacher could make it happen. The music teacher just got fed up with us in the end.

But re the watch - it’s funny how most kids, even ND ones, don’t seem to run out of phone charge, isn’t it? I think this would be a time when a parent would need to take control and ensure it is charged and worn - after all it is about scaffolding the child into being able to manage, so overseeing this for the first few years if the school have met you half way by agreeing to the 5 minute early departure, is reasonable, isn’t it?

They are also far too scared to point out the real issue: poverty.

Do you seriously think every parent has the money to buy ear defenders, some of those parents are using foodbanks, some of those children go to school hungry every day, some of those children have food delivered to them by the L,A during the school holidays. So yes there is a cost.

I did, but did not suggest school was one.

Cone on, respond to what people actually write, not what you think they may have meant.

I do, yes. You can get a pair for £8 on amazon. These people get child benefit to cover their children’s needs, it can be taken from that.

That makes no sense at all, a watch battery lasts years.

If a child needs ear defenders they likely have ear defenders already.
And if ear defenders are unaffordable it highly unlikely you need worry about every child having them

Besides this is about school refusing reasonable adjustments such as ear defenders and loops that the parent has suggested the pupil uses. The parent hasn't asked the school to fund just that the pupil can use their own. School said they will confiscate them

Your figures are incorrect. Only 19% of children have SEND in the UK. 14% have school level support and 5% have EHCPs. Within that support will be pretty basic phonic, reading and maths support and all sorts of disabilities.Are you suggesting we do away with it.

We had same problem with 8 year old and got private specialist to diagnose. We are not affluent but it was worth the money to ensure that child had prompt attention. We are in uk.

This is a really insightful post @AnonyMumAuDHD.

Stock exchanges and trading floors are lovely and quiet these days though. Just a bunch of people tapping away quietly into computers. Visitors must keep their distance for compliance reasons. I've had quite a few ND students go into that line of work, in fact.

You said businesses can't be expected to adapt for all needs meaning that schools shouldn't either.

Firstly businesses do need to fall inline will equality and disability laws. So reasonable adjustments should be made where possible.

Secondly. Schools also have to follow these laws. And it is even more vital that early support and education is done right.

In my experience schools are the most likely to not meet their legal requirements and are less flexible than the real world.