School lateness punishments, neurodiversity and the law

[VividDenimTiger]

Posting here for traffic really. DD 14 has had issues in secondary school- we suspect ADHD to be honest. I am unravelling my own mid life ADHD traits at the moment too.

For DD, one of the things that manifests in school is persistent lateness. She just can’t organise herself to get to lessons on time. The school has now brought in a punishment for lateness where anyone late more than 5 mins gets sent to a punishment room for the lesson. Needless to say DD is now missing loads of lessons because of her lateness.

I know that it’s annoying for teachers when kids are late for lessons but it feels like this policy unfairly targets kids, like my DD, who might or do have some issues with timekeeping because of other things going on.

Aibu? I am trying to unravel some of this for DD (and myself) but I am really angry about how punitive this policy is- it feels like it disadvantages kids who genuinely have issues with organising their time and themselves. The corridors are really busy in school and she gets upset and overwhelmed and that doesn’t help all of this.

@VividDenimTiger you might want to re-post on the SEN board. The replies will be more helpful and less judgmental. 🩷
People do like to kick a struggling parent on AIBU. 😵‍💫

That's a stupid example..a child in a wheelchair will either be able to self propel or not depending on many factors.

School have refused ear defender type adjustments.

So this would be the same as expecting a child to self propel in a wheelchair without self propelled wheels and then punishing them for being unable to self propel and banning them using a different chair which they could self propel

The school does have to agree to the strategies, though - OP can’t unilaterally implement them. And it sounds like everything she’s suggested has been rejected by the school, but they aren’t suggesting what might be acceptable to them as an alternative.

I don’t think anyone is saying that all ND kids can’t learn new skills (not all people can learn every skill, of course). But they may need to do things a different way from other people, and this should be facilitated by the school.

I have dyslexia, among other things, and part of my job is producing briefings. I use speech to text software to do that most of the time. Colleagues without dyslexia don’t have access to this software - they type their briefings. But the end result is the same - why does it matter that the production method is different?

Gosh this sounds like it could be my DD in a couple years… she is already experiencing overwhelm, anxiety, lateness and school refusal in Y6.
It is so awful as a parent to try to help someone who simply seems to be stuck , their brains just get stuck in a loop and they can’t escape.

Ignore the bitchy posters who have no clue.

I’m just really sorry that the school are so unsupportive - you either need to leave or report them to the Board of Governers, they must have some sort of SEN Policy…?

Also research your local council for help as there may be parental courses etc for help

Bit it’s still the case that in some businesses and some jobs that you cannot accommodate people being late; it’s no a reasonable adjustment that the business can provide.

Then you find a job that can accommodate it if you know timekeeping is difficult for whatever reason.

It’s a lot easier to do that as an adult than it is for schoolchildren.

Do you mean strategies like the suggested Loops? a perfectly acceptable strategy to cope with the noise yet OP has been told her dd can't use them. A strategy like leaving a minute early, a perfectly acceptable strategy that's implemented by schools all over the country as a RA for SEND children to move to their next class before the corridors get too crowded, but has been told no? What strategies do you suggest practising at home that will magic away the overwhelm of noisy, crowded corridors in school?

All children are entitled to an education and many schools up and down the country are successfully accommodating ND children. When the SEND changes come in those that are not will need to change.

It is. Children with adhd and autism are born with both in the same way children with physical difficulties are born with their disabilities. You can’t learn or punish away disabilities and all are legally entitled to reasonable adjustments which other schools up and down the country are successfully providing.

Learning skills does not mean you can eradicate disabilities hence them being disabilities. Like more visable disabilities ND varies hugely and what helps/ works for some won’t for others . Said disabilities are there for life however inconvenient that is for some. To enable ND kids to achieve they need and are entitled to support and reasonable adjustments.

One of my ND children has attended both types of school. The totally inflexible state school devoid of reasonable adjustments or support lead to self harm and her attempting to take her own life. The amazing state school with far less resources but one that had a superb SENCO and staff who provided reasonable adjustments and support enabled my child to leave with amazing qualifications that will enable her to gain further qualifications and get into work. We’ve had superb provision from unis and quite impressive places of work for placements as regards reasonable adjustments and meeting the needs of ND for all my dc all of which are either in uni or work.Unis and places of work can and do offer crucial reasonable adjustments( bizarrely better than some schools)that can keep ND people off benefits and in work.

It’s all very well everyone chipping in with just follow the crowds to the next lessons but it’s not practical. How many are in the school cohort? At secondary it’s likely to be 1,000+ all moving at the same time. That’s overwhelming for anyone - I work in a school, I avoid lesson change over time.

If she’s 14 I’d be pursuing a private diagnosis so her needs are fully understood before GCSE’s. In the meantime I would look for infomation on the condition you believe she has and make a list of the struggles she has, she won’t necessarily have them all and she will have some from other conditions as they all coexist. Have DD write a statement on how she feels, where she hides, etc. Then write to the SENDCo, head of year, registration teacher and pastoral and ask for a meeting to discuss how the school can help manage her overwhelm. Give them X days to reply before raising it to the head and then the board of governors. I don’t see how letting her out 2 minutes before lesson ends is any different to issuing her with a toilet pass. Good luck.

Not to derail the thread but have you sought an EHCP for your daughter? You can apply for it yourself (there's a support thread in Education/SEN on here). Do not assume that the primary will help you with the transition to secondary. I work in an inclusive secondary and we would add a child like yours to enhanced transition (although it's mostly happened already...)

This thread is just another example of how enormous state schools can’t meet the needs of all children. In OP’s DD’s case it sounds like the school absolutely could meet her needs but currently actively isn’t. In many other children’s cases their needs simply can’t be met in this type of environment. If only Bridget Phillipson and her supporters would one day realise this, rather than trying to shove even more disabled children into this type of environment.

While I agree there should be more consideration into letting her leave lessons early, there also needs to be more discussion with your daughter over exactly where she is going and whether she is alone during these moments she disappears.

Sadly with a lot of children any adaptions that schools put in place are misused and a minority then spoil it for those who genuinely need it.
If they allow your DD to leave early, what happens if she then becomes overwhelmed that she is out of class early and might get told off for that? Or she is arriving early at the next class but the previous class are still there so she has to stand there and wait and then doesn't like the rush of them all leaving. She then decides this causes anxiety too, so wants a friend to go with her. Next thing you know you have multiple groups of students who all have permission to leave early and are all merrily chatting as they wander around, disrupting others still in classrooms.

Yes you do need to support her and back her up with the school, but I do think questions need to be raised over how she manages to wander the corridors ok to get outside and what she does when there. I am surprised that no one is trying to move her on from being outside (whether that is alone, or especially if she is with a group of others).

I think this is the point many in the ‘what has changed since I was at school’ camp are missing. When I was at school, secondary classes were about 20-22 children and there were usually 3 classes per year. Occasionally in a large birth year there might be a fourth year as an exception.

My local secondary (I am not in a city, just a market town in commuter belt) has just under 1700 students across 5 year groups (ie yr 7-11). This is 330 students per year and average class sizes of 33. At lesson change over this means there are 1650 students, and nearly 100 teaching staff transitioning between rooms. All lugging bags, PE kit, art portfolio cases, boxes of marking, etc. It feels like the departure lounge of an airport with the noise, chaos and movement. The teacher don’t form individual relationships with children because they may see as many as 300 different children a week, so they cannot respond thoughtfully to those amongst them who need a little more support. Of course this feels different to a 2 form entry village primary school. Of course the transition from one to the other is overwhelming.

It isn’t the children who are broken, really - it’s a state school system that has opted for a mass delivery model under financial rationales of economies of scale. It a system that revolves arounds costs and often intangible and undefinable performance measures, not child centred teaching and development.

And no, these types of educational settings do NOT prepare children for the real word - unless they all go to work in airports (actually, and ironically, my school was a feeder for Heathrow airport) or the stock exchange/trading floor. They traumatise even NON ND children, children from troubled homes, with MH issues, with complex social needs. The system is what needs changing so that every child, ND or not, feels safe and seen and, thus, able to flourish within their own abilities.

Ask the school to send her out of each lesson five minutes early so she avoids the corridor crush.

I just can't understand schools like this. My child's school assumes the child has the diagnosis the moment they go on the wait list and makes allowances. It's better for the school and the child. It helps everyone. There is so much there could do. My child was allowed to wear loop ear plugs in certain high volume lessons. Your child should be allowed a place to go when over whelmed and to walk the corridors before the rest of the school. They could be excused from registration and just have to make it to first lesson. They could have someone help them get to lessons for a while and gradually wean them off that. Put her on the waiting list for another school and contact your Sendco whilst CCing the governors.

What if tomorrow the power went off and never came back on?

What ifs are pointless because that may not even happen

If the school offered a short term trial.of.x/y/z

They could.them.discuss the outcome of each and plan accordingly

It may not work and they would have to look for alternatives but it may resolve the issue..

If bob is planting seeds in shade and then not getting them to grow

Does he
A. Do nothing and hope that the stupid seeds will just learn to grow.
B. Try a alternative location in the garden to see if the seeds grow better

Well yes, but there are people suggesting that all businesses should be accommodative of issues such as poor timekeeping.

There are myriad ones which can’t be.

OP has tried that, they've refused.

What strategies do you suggest practising at home that will magic away the overwhelm of noisy, crowded corridors in school?

It has already been suggested way up thread, but the same sort of graduated exposure strategy that we use to teach people to take flights or tolerate spiders? Only much easier for most people who live anywhere near a town of any size than flight or spider training. Start with a shopping mall at a quiet time and finish on a mainline railway platform at peak hour, for example?

I know that wouldn't be easy, but like others on the thread I'm frustrated by the low expectations of some of the more mildly affected ND children. I'm not talking about the ones incapable of such learning.

I do agree. Phillipson could achieve her wish of having fewer children with SEN in special schools simply by having many more smaller mainstream schools, particularly in the secondary sector. For quite a lot of children with SEND, what they principally need is a quiet, calm environment, and they simply cannot cope with one where there are 1000 or more children milling around the corridors at class changeover times and breaks.

In fact Phillipson has a golden opportunity currently to reduce school sizes with primary schools closing down due to falling rolls: not only does that mean that school buildings are available, but those falling rolls will soon feed through into the secondary sector. So if she insisted, say, that maximum class size goes down to around 24, chances are it wouldn't be a massive expense and actually would save money on special school places.

School.is not a business

School.is legally meant to meet.needs after SEN and disabilities

School of failing to meet needs

With needs met a child will be able to learn and develop but failing to meet needs will limit / prevent learning, impact development and cause mental health issues.

A child given the support they need is more likely to develop and be able to work as an adult than a child who has been failed, with gaps in learning and developed mental health issues and poor self esteem is less likely to be able to function productivity as an adult..

Early support is crucial..lack of early support is building problems.. adequate funding and support will.save money in the long term

Bloody hell

These situations are not like school.

A busy platform is for a short period of time where the child can have loops, fidgets other accommodations that they need and then leave

The school won't allow these accommodations and it isn't for.a.short time it is all bloody day, everyday

To use you spider analogy it would be the equivalent of the train station being a short 10 minutes with a little spider compared to school thousands of huge spiders that will be with you forever with just a couple of hours we you can move away from the spiders..if and these spiders are poisonous

Also exposure therapy tends to make ND anxiety worse as ND brains are different to NT brains

So let's not even try them, she can always live on benefits.