EHCP support thread no. 4

[Phineyj]

We've nearly filled the thread again, so here's a new one. Welcome everyone: newcomers, people stuck in the process; battle-hardened veterans of many years...

Here are links to previous threads:

EHCP support thread - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4834986-ehcp-support-thread

EHCP support thread no. 2 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4989146-ehcp-support-thread-no-2

EHCP support thread no. 3 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5077140-ehcp-support-thread-no-3

@Icantpeopleanymore all the evidence should be considered. Reports will often contain a narrative element.

It’s the evidence from people like EP, OT, SALT, etc. who can prove it is inappropriate for the provision to be made in a school. Evidence of not being able to attend settings can be part of your evidence.

I would ask the EP to amend the report sooner rather than later. Focus on getting the EP report as good as it can be now, including needs, provision, outcomes, ensuring it is detailed, specified and quantified, and that it covers preparation for adulthood. That will be beneficial whether you appeal or not. And if you appeal for EOTAS you will probably need independent assessments.

@BrightYellowTrain Thanks for that. Received SALT report today. She has also said he will need 1:1 full time- relieved both reports contain that.

@BrightYellowTrain I emailed the ed psych, she wouldn't amend, and said everything I'd asked would be covered by the comments on the draft ehcp.
I've copied all the emails to the caseworker..not sure what to do next, I've not been able to find anything to quote to say I am entitled to ask her to make clarifications or add provisions about needs that she mentions in the narrative parts but doesn't address in the provisions section.

In the report she does say things like bespoke education and cannot return to school yet, 'very very slow reintegration' and reduced package of GCSE subjects...I don't know if that's enough.

I'll look into independent reports but I think the cost is likely to be prohibitive, I just don't have thousands sitting around to be able to do that, plus the fact that DD can't interact with anyone, it would probably end up being a waste of money as I can't see how anyone can assess her if she won't speak to them. I'll just have to deal with that once the draft happens and if and when I need to appeal. I'll find it if I have to of course.

It isn’t uncommon for LA reports to be poor and the professionals to refuse to amend or fail to amend to a satisfactory standard. Keep going back to the LA and EP. Be a stuck record.

Provision in EHCPs is taken from the evidence so it is important the advice and information sought is detailed, specified and quantified. SENCOP 9.51 states the evidence and advice submitted by those providing it should be clear, accessible and specific. Regulation 6(1) of the SEN Regs 2014 states the advice and information must cover needs, provision to meet such needs, outcomes - i.e. there shouldn’t be needs that don’t have provision to meet the needs. Also point them in the direction of this guidance.

In the EHCP, all needs must be in section B. All needs must have corresponding SEP in F. This is stated in 9.69 of the SENCOP and underpinned by reg 12 of the SEND Regs 2014 and section 37 of the Children and Families Act 2014. If the evidence doesn’t ensure every need mentioned has corresponding provision, how on earth does the LA expect the EHCP to be written in a lawful way. Case law also shows the provision should be detailed, specified and quantified, and, again, if the advice and information isn’t detailed, specified and quantified how does the LA expect to be able to make F lawful.

A report saying bespoke education is good evidence. If you want to pursue EOTAS/EOTIS, the ‘yet’ on the end of cannot return to school lets it down somewhat. That is because some SS can offer a bespoke curriculum with a very very slow reintegration. It all depends on the wider context.

If you have to appeal, can’t afford an independent assessment and aren’t eligible for legal aid, it is worth contacting Parents in Need. Don’t stress about DD being unable to speak to someone. You would be amazed at what a good independent assessment can pick up even if DC struggle to engage.

Has DD had a SALT assessment?

Thank you. I'll look into parents in need.

Actually I just checked and it said "Intervention involving a bespoke learning programme focussing on a few key subjects gradually encouraging her re-engage with her learning without putting too much pressure on her. Try to link work to xxxx
interests (where possible) to help motivate her and ensure that she has plenty of opportunities to succeed providing specific praise when she is successful"

It also said:

"When xxx xxx is ready to return to education, she will need a flexible approach with
few demands to help her to settle and a gradual integration programme. She will
need support to build her self-esteem and access to a small, calm, quiet environment
to help reduce anxiety with regular rest breaks."

The first bit is from provision and the second from the needs section.

I'll keep on nagging...

Oh and sorry, no SALT. She has OT, specialist in HSD, which states anxiety and rest needed after activities, chronic pain and suggests physio, a physio report showing same and also adaptation like needing to use a laptop.

I can request a SALT though can't I? Or is it too late? The speech and language needs are fairly well covered in the EP report, can't talk to adults, mute when under pressure etc.

So I have had a response, they are getting another EHC needs assessor to do my daughters post assessment summary and submitting it to panel as a urgent case, but this means I still won’t know the decision until Monday at the earliest when her sen officer is back from annual leave and then he will have to do a draft ehcp if accepted. How long do they usually take to do a draft ehcp if accepted? We will be at week 17 this Saturday.

@Cinnamoncupcake I had a caseworker who was MIA and the new one took it to panel yesterday, they've agreed to issue, I'll be phoning her in a moment to find out more but I would think ours should be in the next couple of weeks, we are on week 15 now, delayed because of the previous caseworker and school not sending evidence within the first 6 weeks.

I know it has to be done in 20 weeks but they just ignore that usually!

There is no way they would meet the 20 weeks now, even through it’s going to panel through another Sen officer this week, it will still go back to my original sen officer on Monday to tell me the decision and to draft a ehcp. She simply has far to many needs to start school in September without one, it’s all such a worry isn’t it! In my daughters case they’ve had all the reports for 3 weeks ( educational psychologist report was delayed ) so they should have been able to keep to timeline

@Icantpeopleanymore an EP report won’t cover SALT needs and provision like a good SALT report would. You can try requesting the LA seeks advice and information from a SALT but, at this stage, if you think you will have to appeal, you might want to just seek an independent assessment for appeal.

Things like rest breaks and a small… environment etc. aren’t needs. They are provision. The quotes are also quite vague - e.g. “access to” again needs to go, “regular” needs clarifying. If DD needs interest led provision “try to” and “where possible” need removing.

@Cinnamoncupcake given the state of many drafts, a draft could be written in a few hours. Have you made it clear to the LA if (when!) they fail to finalise on time, you will be forced to pursue legal action because they are frustrating your right of appeal?

@BrightYellowTrain thank you. I've spoken to the caseworker who seems to think the 20 weeks is up in April, so I've asked her to clarify the exact date. She also said the ed psych should know better that the report can be amended as she said she needs it to be more clear too. So hopefully once she's contacted the ed psych I'll be able to get her to amend.
I'll look into SALT, I think I'd have to do it independently now to be in time for the draft.

Currently on week 71 of trying to get an EHCP. Tribunal not until July!

@Icantpeopleanymore unless you are very lucky in catching someone with a cancellation, you won’t get a good independent SALT with SENDIST experience in time for the draft. Don’t rely on the LA the telling you the deadlines. Check them yourself.

@ThatsGoingToHurt if it is relevant, e.g. DC isn’t in full-time school, have you requested an expedited hearing?

Hello, can I jump on to ask for some advice? I am currently appealing refusal to issue. The school submitted the original EHCP request, I appealed refusal to assess and now have a decent set of reports with a list of interventions required.

The LA have refused to issue saying that the school can meet need from ordinarily available resources.

The school can’t, and my appeal is on this basis. I sent the school the IPSEA model letter in October asking for details of the individual provision map for my child, along with details of the SEN budget, number of children with EHCPs, number on SEN register. I have now made a FOI request for the SEN budget details (not for the provision map).

The final evidence deadline is in a couple of weeks and despite having repeatedly asked the school for the information, I still haven’t received the details required. The FOI request was supposed to be answered within 20 school days. It is now 5 working days late. Although the SENCO has had a couple of helpful chats with me and provided the LA with a very brief statement saying that they can’t meet the OT or SALT programmes in the recommendations, she has not provided a clear list of what my child is currently getting in terms of SEN provision. I think this is because she hasn’t actually got a written down provision map. The SEN dept seems overwhelmed.

Where do I go from here? Should I complain to the school? I don’t want to undermine my relationship with the senco, but at the same time I don’t think the appeal will have much chance of success without the evidence. The hearing is about 9 months away. So although I’ll miss the final evidence deadline there is I guess still a bit of flexibility.

Thanks

@BananaPie don’t worry about the final evidence deadline, you can request late evidence is admitted.

Yes, complain to the school. Also contact the LA. If that doesn’t work, you could complain again and remind them if they fail to disclose the information you will be forced to ask SENDIST to order the release of information/direct the school to respond.

Follow up all verbal conversations with emails. Push the SENCO to put more in writing.

Does the ‘decent set of reports’ include independent reports? If not, you might want to consider those. Is the ‘list of interventions’ detailed, specified and quantified?

Fortunately DS loves school and attends FT. At the moment he is in Reception and the demands will only increase in Y1. Ironically, the pre-school applied for an EHCNA at the start of his pre-school year as recommended by the Early Years Consultant from the LA!

No I haven’t would I need to send this type of letter to the Sen officer? Even if I get a draft come Monday they still wouldn’t meet the deadline. Do you think some LA refuse to issue if they know they can’t get it done in time? In a way of covering there arse?

@BrightYellowTrain oh I will be checking definitely, I have the date as end of march but she said April. However it's been confusing as they redid the panel meeting for decision to assess due to the school not submitting evidence. I'm sticking to my date when I submitted as the start though.
I know I'll struggle but it's worth a try...I can use it later if I do get one, however DD probably won't talk to them or even attend an appointment so I'm not sure how much use it'll be if I do find one.

I've spent an hour or two this evening going through the ed psychologist report and highlighted everywhere there is vague language and made notes on anything I think she's missed, asked for provision for a few needs mentioned but without provision. Hopefully I got everything. Also contacted a local organisation for advice and to see how much draft checking would be.

Meeting with case worker went okay - they agreed to wait for the EP response to my request for amendments and suggested I also email SALT with all my queries. I noted that due to the ongoing argument around OT, I would most likely need to appeal anyway so they are going to finalise as soon as they have comments back from SALT and EP, and response from school to agree they can meet need. The case worker brought her boss along - not sure if that is because she thinks I am difficult or because she knows she can't make any decisions! There were a lot of questions from the boss about why various things weren't already in place eg nhs provision and I had to point out that any such provision is either non-existent in our area or there is such a level of gatekeeping that access is not possible if your child is seemingly well-adjusted (read not suicidal, school refusing, expelled or hospitalised......)

Comments back from EP today - basically saying they don't think it is appropriate or even possible to be specific / detailed about the vague provision I flagged 🙄and that there is an assumption that provision is led by teacher / TA so doesn't need to be written in the report. I told them it all needs to be explicitly added as otherwise it will not be possible to enforce provision if needed...
the EP also said lack of detail in some provision is because the SALT / OT advice should cover it - except it doesn't.

Every interaction is a frustration that they do their utmost to avoid following the code of practice....

I am very lucky that school understand the core needs and will get on with it anyway, but I am very aware that it only takes a change of a staff member for all that to disappear without it being specifically listed in the EHCP.

@BrightYellowTrain thanks, that’s really helpful

@Cinnamoncupcake send it to the caseworker and the Director of Children’s Services. It is more common for LAs to ignore the fact they have breached the timescales than it is for them to refuse just because they are in breach - not least because delaying delays your right of appeal too.

@Icantpeopleanymore if the LA formally refused to assess and then conceded, the 10/14 weeks would be from when they conceded. If the original refusal wasn’t formal, the 20 weeks are from the date of the EHCNA request. You would be amazed at what good professionals are able to glean even if the child struggles to engage.

@handmademitlove ignore the LA. Even if the provision was already in place, it would still need to be in the EHCP. They are trying to pass the buck back to health when the provision is special educational provision. All about money and ease of enforcement. The EP should be covering everything within their remit.

@BananaPie if complaining to the school and speaking to the LA doesn’t work, you could also complain to the ICO. However, don’t rely on that way to get the information because it isn’t quick.

Hi all, hope everyone is doing ok.

I've just put in our section B/F appeal. Does anyone know what the rough timelines are at the moment?

I'm assuming at least until well into the autumn term.

School have still done zero to implement the plan although I did raise it with the head last week and had an apology from the SENCO. Because DD has no behavioural challenges there's never any sense of urgency.

For non-prioritised/expedited hearings, you are looking at over a year, I’m afraid.

Ooof that's a looooong time.

Hi @Macramepotholder have you done the SEN7 form as it's a phase transfer? And have you ticked the box to say it can be heard "on the papers" (if that's acceptable to you?) Doing those things a year ago speeded everything up months for us.