EHCP support thread no. 4

[Phineyj]

We've nearly filled the thread again, so here's a new one. Welcome everyone: newcomers, people stuck in the process; battle-hardened veterans of many years...

Here are links to previous threads:

EHCP support thread - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4834986-ehcp-support-thread

EHCP support thread no. 2 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4989146-ehcp-support-thread-no-2

EHCP support thread no. 3 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5077140-ehcp-support-thread-no-3

@Namechangeagain80 section 19 provision can be as well as part time school where that is appropriate. The provision isn’t limited to one intermediary school. It has to be whatever is suitable. It does not require a referral from the homeschool - although DD’s school should have made a sickness return as per the School Attendance (Pupil Registration) (England) Regulations 2024.

You can try to request an expedited hearing on the basis DD is not in school full time. You can do this via a SEND7 - don’t forget to seek the LA’s views first.

@BrightYellowTrain Thank you. I might wait to see what the outcome of the LIFT meeting is before I go back to the LA re section 19. So would I just say that I don't think that would be a suitable provision?

The SENCO has spoken about the possibility of seeing if we can get DD in for just afternoons for a couple of weeks and just do an intensive period of 1:1 emotional support intervention, but she was going to seek the views of the LIFT.

Thank you, I had seen mention of the SEND7 form. Would I just go back to the LA and say eg that I would like to put in a request for an expedited hearing due to XX and assume that they had no objections?

@Namechangeagain80 yes, explain the provision offered isn’t suitable, why and reference any evidence to support your points. When seeking the LA’s views ask if they agree to seek an earlier hearing since DD is not attending school full time thus not receiving a suitable full-time education. SENDIST may or may not agree but it is worth a shot. I would do this ASAP because an avalanche of content/placement appeals will hit SENDIST shortly.

@Phineyj
@BrightYellowTrain

So yesterday I got the draft amended EHCP (again) along with this response from DS’s case worker. I’ve removed names:

LA response in italics

I wanted to take this opportunity to clarify and explain what went wrong last year.
‘SENCO’ forwarded me the Review paperwork on 17/07/2024. It was my duty as Caseworker for ‘school name’ and ‘DS’ to action the review document.
Within 1 month of the review, I had to issue a letter indicating whether the Local Authority were going to amend or not DS’s EHCP. This did not happen, and I apologise unreservedly.
I can assure you that at no point did ‘DS’ miss any provision or funding because of this oversight.
There was an EHCP in place and the Annual Review document is always considered as addendum to this plan. EHCP is always amended at Transition reviews in preparation for key stage transfer.
All the changes we discuss during such transition review are made to the EHCP to ensure it is factual when we consult with schools for the young person transferring to next key stage.”

From this, I’m reading that they believe that DS didn’t miss any provision. He absolutely did, because no one was clear about what provision he was supposed to get last term.
I’ve just had a quick look at the draft EHCP and I can still see the word ‘handicapped’ in there. Section F still doesn’t look right. Why doesn’t it appear as a table? Are there any good section F examples online?

I need to reply so any thoughts would be very, very much appreciated. Thank you X

Hi @RibbyJumper I think it's kind of amazing you got an apology actually.

My LA appear to operate on the policy never apologise, never explain, no names, no pack drill!

I think I may have a couple of examples of good section Fs. I'll have a look later as I would need to take the names/identifying details off.

@BrightYellowTrain Thank you ❤️

@RibbyJumper it is actually 4 weeks rather than 1 month the LA has to inform parents if they are going to amend, maintain as is or propose to cease to maintain.

because no one was clear about what provision he was supposed to get last term.

Why? The current EHCP remains in force until an amended EHCP is finalised. The school and LA should know this.

I can assure you that at no point did ‘DS’ miss any provision or funding because of this oversight.

Well, I suppose this depends on if the LA was going to amend or not. If they were, then DS went without the provision that would have been amended. If they weren’t, then he didn’t - not that that excuses not adhering to the timescales because it frustrates your right of appeal.

The waffle about phase transfers is neither here nor there. You aren’t discussing phase transfers. And amendments aren’t limited to only phase transfers.

Why doesn’t it appear as a table?

It doesn’t have to be in a table. There isn’t a universal format to how LAs have to set it out at the moment.

@BrightYellowTrain

Thus all stemmed from me questioning the school about provision.

I looked at the school EHCP provision plan from the meeting in July, and could see that planned provision wasn’t being provided.

I didn’t realise this hadn’t been finalised or made official by the LA.

Therefore the school told me that planned provision was only a plan/the class teacher didn’t need to see it/was not what DS should actually be getting.

Had the amended EHCP been provided in time - everyone would have been clearer?

So for a term, I don’t think he was getting the right provision. I didn’t realise what had happened, I felt bad about questioning it, I didn’t know whether I should trust my instinct, I didn’t want to create bad feelings, and I wanted to be supportive.

I also feel provision is dropping again after my initial complaint. E.g DS was initially being sent to the toilet, heard read etc. We’re back now to no reading comments and DS bursting for a wee when he gets home.

So for a term, I don’t think he was getting the right provision.

@RibbyJumper from the LA and school’s PoV, he was. That is because the existing inadequate EHCP is still in force because the LA has failed to adhere to the AR timescales.

I'm new to all this and I'm hoping I can find some useful info..DD is currently out of school and EHCP is in assessment phase, the draft will be due in two weeks if they agree to issue.

I'm looking at schools to name, I'm under no illusion that the LA will consult with them or that in fact, DD will even go to anything...she's been out of school since September and can barely leave the house. I mean if we can find the right place for her there's a chance she might get back into education but it's slim. She's year 10, was in a grammar school, very able, autistic but also has PDA traits and is very very anxious. No friends and struggles to make and keep them.

My problem is finding somewhere to name as preferences.

We live in west Kent, near Medway.

I've trawled through the lists on the gov.uk website, I've asked for recommendations, from colleagues (I'm a teacher) and from SEN groups locally.

A few have come up but the sort of place that I think might be in with a chance of getting her through the door is generally an independent. I've spoken to 4, one was too small, she'd be the only child in year 10 and they wouldn't work for her, one was more of an AP and there was quite a lot of very challenging behaviour I saw when I visited which she would really struggle with..two were full and wouldn't discuss the school with me as no places, both independent so wouldn't have to take her I think? Plus I haven't got much hope of that I'm assuming, KCC are broke.

Anyone here is Kent or have knowledge of Kent schools, or does anyone know if there is a website somewhere I can search by school type?

I'm wondering about a mainstream with SRP, but again, places in year 10 seem hard to come by.

I'm thinking I can name somewhere but if it doesn't work out, I can then try to push for EOTAS? Or do I do that from the start? I have literally no idea. Caseworker at KCC isn't answering the phone and couldn't even tell me the exact dates of timelines (ours is a bit odd as it went to panel twice, no mediation, which delayed things but they seem to now be doing it quickly as I had the EP appointment within a day of them agreeing to assess)

I'm just so lost and overwhelmed, my mental health is shot as get the last few months and I'm finding it really hard to think about what to do when. Hopefully someone has advice!

www.facebook.com/groups/769692436764703/?ref=share @Icantpeopleanymore this group may have school suggestions (if you're not already a member of it!)

@Phineyj thank you I've just requested to join. I have quite the range of groups I've joined now!

@Icantpeopleanymore you can search for schools here. You can filter by type. Don’t filter by phase of education because some independent SS don’t have that information accurately recorded, so filtering by phase misses some.

There is little school wise in KCC for academically able autistic girls who can’t cope in MS.

Are the 2 independent schools that said they are full wholly independent or section 41 independent? You only need an offer of a place if it is the former. For the latter, being ‘full’ is not enough of a reason to refuse to name your preference. For an independent school, you may have to appeal, but it is possible. You may have to appeal to get a good EHCP, anyway, no matter what placement you want.

If EOTAS is needed (i.e. it is inappropriate for the provision to be made in a school) you should request this from the start. If you request a school, the KCC is unlikely to then finalise giving EOTAS. They don’t like EOTAS but don’t let them fool you. They are not a stranger to it. Some DC have high value packages.

If you try a school and it doesn’t work, you would need to request an early review.

From what you describe, an SRP is unlikely to work. DD is still likely to find the environment overwhelming. With most SRPs, the mainstream school is named in section I and the SRP provision detailed in F, and being ‘full’ on its own isn’t enough to not include it.

If you think a mainstream independent would work, depending on where you are, Kent College may be just about doable and is probably the best bet for an independent MS, but I’m from what you describe I suspect the sensory environment would still be too overwhelming. I will PM you a school I would avoid - I would post on the thread but they can be funny about what is posted online about them.

Have you looked at West Heath and the Rochester site of Ripplevale if either are doable travel wise? Although both are very different to a grammar and that has positives and negatives. Newingate is probably too far. If it isn’t, that’s worth looking at if you haven’t already.

Your timelines aren’t odd. The 20 weeks start from when the EHCNA request was submitted. If the LA didn’t formally refuse to assess after the first ‘panel’, this still applies. If the LA did formally refuse to assess, the LA has 10 weeks from the date they agreed to assess to inform you if they aren’t going to issue and 14 weeks to finalise if they are going to issue.

Thank you @BrightYellowTrain really helpful. As always I have follow up questions, sorry!

I used the site to look but found the filters etc not very user friendly, I'll give it another go.

I am not sure about the section 41 status of the schools...

I'm in Maidstone/Medway border. She had a taxi to school before but only a 20 min journey, she didn't mind it as long as it was the same driver every day.

I tried;

The view school in eden bridge, an hour away though, said they were full.
Broomhill Bank also said full.

Saw a tiny AP in Gravesend, pier view academy, not right for her. Won't go into details why, but I can pm anyone who wants to know...

Spoke to Hilden school in Tonbridge, loads of places, independent but only 6 students in the whole school, again not right for her as she might be the only student in year 10. She can't cope with scrutiny so being the only student in a class or year would not go down well...plus no languages which she is brilliant at and no art, no music although they did do igcses I think.

Waiting to hear from west heath, looked great.

Will look at Ripplevale. Did like the look of it but independent I think? Also very close.

Newingate sounds possible...about 40 mins away.

Infiniti school in Doddington, Sittingbourne, very close but not sure yet, wasn't clear what the students were like, SEMH I think.

Kent college, is that Canterbury? Not too far maybe again, there was one in Whitstable though which I think again is about 45 mins away. I'll look properly in a mo.

There's a school which has a unit attached called the viewpoint, for EBSA, girls school in Tonbridge, hillview I think, need to investigate. But wary of girls schools now though after her experience of grammar.

I agree, an SRP probably won't work. I only had one option, The Malling School, but I can't see her wanting to do the whole walking into a building with hundreds of kids or entering a year 10 peer group who are all bonded etc...even if she were in a SRP, they very much tried to get them to attend mainstream for most lessons.

I guess I won't worry too much about the independent thing and just find something suitable, worry about appeal etc later. But if I call them, they aren't section 41, and they say full, then no point naming them?

Re EOTAS...I'm in two minds.

She's hopefully got a place at Rosewood school for outreach, hoping to hear this coming week. If that works then maybe she could cope with trying a school, but at the moment I can't see her going to one at all. Also could be weeks before I know if that's going to work. Rosewood is only a short term placement, 12 weeks. Not long enough for her. They do keep students in year11 and I've heard wonderful things, I know a student very like her that I taught who is there, doing really well. Fully expecting it to fail though if she doesn't want to or is too anxious to try and then if EHCP isn't in place, argue for an alternative section 19 provision. Meeting with KCC on 11th Feb to discuss.

So my options are trying a school, if it fails and she isn't able to attend, ask for an early review and then EOTAS? However I'm assuming early review isn't quick? Or would it be a priority as she's going to be in year 11 in three terms? If I have to then appeal she could be over 16 at that point with nothing in place.

I currently can't see her going to any school again but I am feeling pretty down about it all at the moment and maybe I'm being pessimistic. EOTAS is a fight to get and also I have to work, she's ok to be left alone but currently she's alone 3.5 days a week and it's too much. If she had a budget for a personal assistant type role (I know that's not what they're called but can't think straight right now) then maybe but I can't see her ever getting used to that either. Could take months to get used to a new person, even the right one.

Is it better to start off asking for it or to try once a school place has failed? As then you've shown that school isn't appropriate?

Also wouldn't the EP report have to say that they that a school wouldn't be suitable?

The timeline confused me as they sent it to panel for assess at 6 weeks, then refused, but then said as the school had then sent evidence they would do another panel, that was last week, so at 11 weeks...week 14 is a 13th of Feb, EP saw me last Monday and school Thursday..week 12....so I guess I'm assuming she hasn't been refused issue but they still have time to refuse it I guess? Won't hold my breath or celebrate just yet! I wasn't sure if it reset as it were after panel, but I discovered the EP service had the request to assess at week 9, before the second panel (not even sure that actually happened)🤷

The caseworker isn't replying to emails and isn't answering the phone so I'm going to try to talk to someone Monday as all they've sent is the EP, they haven't asked anyone else to assess, I don't know about SALT etc but again, she probably can't talk to anyone anyway..

One thing is I'm waiting on a report from a private consultant about her hypermobility spectrum disorder diagnosis. It's been 6 weeks now and I'm fuming because he wasn't cheap but always seems to be away somewhere. I'm going to chase that as I want it included. She needs pacing of physical activity and aids when she's in pain or fatigued which would go in the health section I think.

Sorry for all the questions and thank you so much again.

I'm really struggling with all this at the moment. I saw one of her friends from primary who was so close to her, doing the 'normal' walking home after school thing, she chatted to DD briefly but hasn't contacted her at all in months to hang out and it properly hurt my heart to know she's got no one and that she won't be doing all those normal things.

@Icantpeopleanymore once you have searched for schools by ‘local authority’, I would only use the ‘establishment type’ filter to tick ‘special schools’. Ignore all the others.

You can see a list of section 41 schools here.

Pier View and Hilden Park would absolutely be the wrong places with the level of challenging behaviour. From what you have posted, I doubt The View and Infiniti would be suitable either. With what you have written, the only SEMH school who may be remotely suitable would, IMO, be West Health. Even then, they may not be the right fit.

Broomhill Bank is not wholly independent, so being ‘full’ on its own isn’t a reason to refuse to name it. It is a better fit than most of the SEMH schools above, but I don’t think it would be able to meet DD’s needs.

West Heath and Ripplevale are both wholly independent so you would need an offer. They cannot be named if they don’t offer a place, but beyond that, don’t worry about them being wholly independent at this point.

Yes, Kent College in Canterbury. You would need an offer of a place which I don’t know if they would offer, but if you thought it could work, it is worth asking.

I think DD’s MH has deteriorated too far for ViewPoint (and the post 16 offer) to be successful. If you had been offered that some time ago, it may have worked.

If DD would cope with a long (especially at school times) commute, Limpsfield Grange would be just about doable from Maidstone. Doesn’t work for all and has a huge downside of not covering post 16. Personally, I wouldn’t go this route. Posting so you have all the options.

Also a long journey is Woodview and a bit of an unknown with it being a new school and many new SS go through a state of flux in the first few years.

Obviously, that is all just my opinion, so feel free to ignore.

If you needed to request an early review and the LA agreed to hold one, within 4 weeks the LA has to inform you if they are going to maintain as is, propose to amend to amend or propose to cease to maintain. If they propose to amend, they then have a further 8 weeks to finalise. However, there is no guarantee the LA will agree to an early review. In that case, you would be left either requesting a reassessment of needs (which the LA is unlikely to agree to since the EHCP will have not long since been issued) or wait for the annual review (which will actually be a phase transfer review in the autumn term of Y11). If you have to appeal, you can request the hearing is expedited because DD isn’t in school. Phase transfers are also prioritised.

With EOTAS (or EOTIS which is now the term preferred by the judiciary - it’s not like there isn’t anything better to focus on!) it doesn’t matter you have to work. The LA is responsible. It is not home education. You cannot be compelled to deliver, facilitate or organise the provision.

You don’t need another failed placement to get EOTAS. And a failed placement alone doesn’t prove it is inappropriate for provision to be made in a school. You don’t need the LA EP to agree it is inappropriate. If you have to appeal, and to get a good EOTAS package in KCC you will have to, that is where independent assessments come in.

With EOTAS, call it a LSA/TA/HLTA/mentor role to the LA. LAs associate the term PA with social care provision.

If the LA formally refused to assess and then last week agreed, the 10/14 weeks would be from then. If the original refusal wasn’t formal, the 20 weeks start from the date of the EHCNA request.

As well as SALT, you need the LA to seek advice and information from OT and physio. Don’t worry if DD will struggle to engage.

@Icantpeopleanymore I asked around for you and King's Rochester was recommended. Apparently they have succeeded in the past with similar pupils. If you PM me I will share what my source said exactly (let me know if you've PM'ed as I use the app and I don't think the messaging system works on there).

Actually if you've joined that PDA group on Facebook I'll pass the info to you there. Mumsnet PM is a pain and my desktop isn't working properly.

@Icantpeopleanymore a few other thoughts. Would DD be open to weekly boarding once her mental health improves? If so, that opens up other options. For example, Unsted Park.

What does DD want (MS, SS, EOTAS)?

Kent College Pembury is also worth a look if you think mainstream would work. I’m not sure it would, though. Even a supportive mainstream. They have a lot of DC with SEN and are well thought of from that aspect, but are still a mainstream with all that entails, and they are wholly independent, so you would need an offer.

We finally had some good news: DC did a couple of taster days at a small therapeutic independent school for ND kids and the school have told the LA that they can meet needs for both DC. I'm just waiting for the LA to send us the consultation response, so we can check if the school raised any concerns/issues. We now want to aim for this as the new placement.

@BrightYellowTrain Personally, I wouldn’t go for an early review for reasons previously discussed. If the LA would agree amendments via that route, they would concede the appeal.

We had put aside the idea of doing early reviews but our ARs are going to be due around the time of our tribunal hearings in May. Do the ARs have to go ahead?

If we did them in March, then the LA's responses would be due before the hearings (assuming they meet their deadlines).

But if we don't do them before the hearings, I'm concerned that the LA will insist on them after the tribunals, and might try to undo anything that was decided in the hearings.

@Phineyj thank you, I'll take a look. I've asked on the group for suggestions.

@BrightYellowTrain she honestly doesn't know. The last time I could get her to talk about it she said she doesn't want to go back and wants to be at home.
She couldn't cope with boarding I don't think, I can't even get her to stay with my mum overnight, the last time she had a sleepover when I had a night out I had to come home early and collect her as she couldn't sleep and was getting really upset.

We were recommended Kent College for DD but woah the fees. The recommendation was from an experienced primary head though so we considered it seriously. It's in Pembury and not great for public transport, although close to the motorway.

I know, I've just been looking at these independent schools and just can't get past the fees! More than twice my salary! Do KCC really pay that? I can't imagine it's done often..

@Icantpeopleanymore yes, LAs, including KCC, pay independent school fees. Often only when forced to, but they do. Independent MS fees are often a drop in the ocean compared to independent SS fees. And they are a drop in the ocean compared to a good EOTAS/EOTIS packages (DSs’ packages are several multiples of even expensive independent MS fees.)

@SpaceInvader321 LAs must not amend provision recently ordered by SENDIST just because they disagree with the outcome of the appeal. There must be actual evidence of an actual change in circumstances necessitating the amendments. My LA once mooted trying it. They soon dropped the idea when we warned them if they tried that stunt we would pursue JR.

The AR process runs alongside the appeal process, so, if it is due, yes it should legally happen and the outcome can feed into the appeal process. The problem with having a review so close to the hearing is, there is some inconsistency as to how reviews are being handled at the moment. It is another area where LAs are being allowed to act as they please. Judge Jane McConnell has expressed she doesn’t expect LAs to issue finalised amended EHCPs during appeals. What is happening in practice isn’t consistent; some LAs are issuing amended versions, some are not. Where amended finalised versions have been issued, SENDIST is making some who have amended versions submit fresh appeals because it supersedes the EHCP subject to appeal. Sometimes these are then consolidated, but not always. Yet other times, SENDIST is allowing the exact same circumstances to be incorporated as part of the existing without a fresh appeal being submitted.

Well, KCC pay West Heath fees and taxi some kids up from the Kent coast each day. West Heath is way more expensive than Kent College!

It's their own fault for letting the SS capacity dwindle over time.

Just had a tiny breakthrough with DD...I asked her what she would like, if she would consider a different school if it looked nothing like her old MS. Emphatic no.

I then suggested again, as I have in the past, online school or a variety of different offers of things like cooking, guitar lessons etc, with some online GCSEs, she said yes, and said yes to filling out the questionnaire the EP left her.

So that's something.

Can I name an online provision on the EHCP? This school seems interesting https://www.tcesnationalonlineschool.org.uk/referrals-1/make-a-referral

Therapeutic education, SEN learners...she watched a video about Minerva virtual academy with me too. Didn't say no.