EHCP support thread no. 4

[Phineyj]

We've nearly filled the thread again, so here's a new one. Welcome everyone: newcomers, people stuck in the process; battle-hardened veterans of many years...

Here are links to previous threads:

EHCP support thread - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4834986-ehcp-support-thread

EHCP support thread no. 2 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/4989146-ehcp-support-thread-no-2

EHCP support thread no. 3 - www.mumsnet.com/talk/special_educational_needs/5077140-ehcp-support-thread-no-3

@246810k I’m not sure if this is what you mean, but LAs must follow the directions given. However, it isn’t uncommon for them not to adhere to the deadlines and nothing much happens. The LA is given another chance and in many cases chances. They may be threatened with being barred, but often this is just a threat. Even when they are then barred, most of the time they are reinstated. The LA’s initial response should include the things listed here if they are opposing the appeal. Although, again, it isn’t uncommon for them not to and not much will happen.

The existing EHCP remains in force, so anything detailed, specified and quantified in F must still be provided under section 42 of the Children and Families Act 2014.

@BrightYellowTrain

Sorry to keep bending your ear, I hope you don’t mind.

So the LA said they aimed to have my son’s amended EHCP finalised at the end of last week.

I phoned and it’s not been done. They said the thing holding it up is this ‘provision map’.

So the SENCO sent one provision map off in July (after a meeting with me/speech and language/class teacher) - and my guess is this is now being changed??? - but I’m not getting any visibility of this - yet. Can this just be changed without discussion?

The LA told me it’s ‘not normal’ that an EHCP amendment should take 6 months, and that the July provision plan map should have been shared with the class teacher. They also seemed very interested when I mentioned which school, and asked me to put everything/all my experiences in writing to his case worker, her immediate boss and the head of case workers for the area.

I’m really in two minds as to whether to do this. I then found out that another mum is complaining to the LA about exclusion, so I’m wondering if this is why I was asked??

I don’t like ruffling feathers (I prefer to do that on Mumsnet) - but I really think something is wrong and needs to change.

I also saw on IPSEA this: and that I can submit evidence to the 30th Jan

committees.parliament.uk/work/8684/solving-the-send-crisis/

In fact this might be if interest to anyone posting here. Evidence can be submitted until the 30th Jan

https://committees.parliament.uk/work/8684/solving-the-send-crisis/

Thanks @RibbyJumper. I'd like to do it but they haven't made it very accessible for individuals. Write a lengthy Word doc and upload it! It's actually worse than the curriculum review which at least had questions/structure.

Although I think we all should do it if we can as otherwise all they'll hear is the institutional voice and we know how well that's gone over the years.

Don’t be fooled by the LA, @RibbyJumper.

It is common for LAs to breach the timescales following a review. Don’t let the LA have you believe it isn’t.

And don’t let them pass the buck. The school should be acting better, but the passing the buck about breaching the timescales is a common LA tactic. The ultimate responsibility lies with the LA, not the school. The provision map is a red herring here.

Best practice would be for the school to consult you about the provision map.

@BrightYellowTrain thanks for all your help.

On the day, how do the hearings work? Does the judge/panel question the witnesses? Do parents have to question the witnesses? Or do parents just give their side when asked by the judge? If you disagree with a point made by the witness, do you address this straight away? Do witnesses question each other?

@Ponche you are welcome.

There’s no one set format to hearings. Different judges prefer different structures to hearings. For example, some will ask more background questions at the beginning than others. Some will give you the opportunity to make an opening statement, but not all do all the time. Sometimes it is literally just the outstanding disputed content that is looked at rather than the EHCP/WD, or section(s) of, as a whole. If there are witnesses attending, sometimes they present their evidence about the case as a whole, but sometimes they are ‘just’ cross examined about outstanding disputed content. The panel may ask questions, but they don’t always and sometimes ask more questions than at other times. You will get the chance to present your case and ask questions. Raise anything that is inaccurate but do not interrupt even if the LA does.

Howling into the void tonight. Got both kids ehcp applications back this week. Ds1's was declined, but as they don't say why, I have no idea what further evidence would be needed. We paid for an OT report along with his diagnoses of adhd, autism, dyspraxia and hypermobility and the school and EP evidence. Attendance has been declining for a year. He has only gone in 2 days this year and left at lunch time on one of those days. He can't cope with noise, uniforms, other children or lots of the curriculum.

Ds2's has been agreed, but it says mainstream, despite his school writing that they can't meet his needs and that he should be in bespoke horticulture bases education. He hasn't attended school full time in a year and hasn't even met his teachers or entered the classroom this school year. He can only wear pyjamas, eat boiled egg whites and cornflakes for lunch and has a plant based hyperfocus. Very specifically rare and unusual plants, with a tropical bias. The ehcp says garbage like 15 minutes with an appropriately trained teaching assistant about a child that regularly runs into traffic as we even near the school to drop off his brother.

Why is this so hard?! How much money is being wasted ensuring that no child gets the education they need? How many parents (including probably us) just give up because we don't have the money or energy to keep going? How many stupid articles are there about checks on home educating families, when so many of us don't even want to be doing it, we just can't get the education provided by the state?

Sorry, not having a good day. Just needed to write it all down.

@BrightYellowTrain

The LA phoned me today, and assured me they had chased and chased and his amended EHCP will be with me in the next couple of days.

Ok, they may be covering their back - but at the very, very least there is a recognition that I’m anxious, and an effort to proactively contact me.

Whereas the school = avoid eye contact and avoid communication.

One of my son’s issues is avoiding the toilet at school. I met with the school last year and we agreed that simply placing a lanyard around his neck prompts him to go.

We made this as simple as possible, but - it’s only ‘remembered’ shortly after a prompt from me. And then forgotten.

DS doesn’t have an allocated TA. The school tell ne they have moved away from this to shared responsibility. The problem being that no one feels responsible or accountable.

Surely all this takes is empathy??

@SprigatitoYouAndIKnow

I met with a friend of DP over Xmas. She has a son who won’t leave his bedroom -yet was refused an EHCP.

It’s completely arbitrary and there seems no reasoning as to why my son was was awarded one, yet hers not. It’s maybe down to Local Authority? I also think that self initiation meant more ownership and less reliance on others? Plus I can’t recommend the template letters on IPSEA enough. Once you threaten the law, people take action.

I was an absolute pain in the arse, and I think this helped DS gain his EHCP.

And then - just from my personal job. I look after very young children at lunchtime.

The timetable is that the youngest children go back to their classroom at 1pm for a sleep.
They seem to have an automatic body clock - and get teary, tired and needy at 1pm.
Yet no one comes to take them? Meetings, chats - or a lengthier lunchtime takes priority over the children’s needs??
There seems to be something wrong in schools.
There are the very, very hard working ‘Boxers’ v’s authoritarian SLT.

This needs addressing more than the Local Authority I think.

@SprigatitoYouAndIKnow for DS1, is it a refusal to assess or refusal to issue? Either way, appeal.

For DS2, appeal. Do you have a preferred SS in mind? Or are you aiming for EOTAS/EOTIS?

@RibbyJumper the LA is fobbing you off by passing the buck. They are the ones responsible for amending the EHCP, not the school.

If DS needs a consistent 1:1 (or if full-time 1:1 is required, it will need to be at least 2 consistent 1:1s) that needs to be in F.

@BrightYellowTrain @RibbyJumper for ds1 they originally refused to assess, then changed their minds a couple of months later, well before the tribunal date. This is now the refusal to issue. Yes we will either mediate or go straight for tribunal. They ignored everything from our OT and their EP report was garbage. She never met him as it is mostly done by zoom these days.

For ds2 we need eotas to start at an extremely small scale and build up. Must be child led as he is pda and WILL NOT engage in anything he doesn't want to. I asked for ehcp to include that his special interest shouldn't be used as a bribe or punishment, but of course they ignored that bit. Eotas would be much cheaper for them than even mainstream, as there is so little he could cope with.

Consider if you need independent assessments for one or both DC.

A good EOTAS (or EOTIS which is what you should use for SENDIST because certain judges now have a bee in their bonnet about the vowel that is used.) should not be cheaper than MS even for a child with PDA who needs a child led self-directed package. It really shouldn’t be. Do you have evidence it is inappropriate for the provision to be made in a school? That is the legal threshold for EOTAS.

Received a draft through yesterday, they appear to have accepted all of the independent EPs report without an argument.
There's a couple of things so far I m not sure of although I need to go through as a fine tooth comb over the weekend,

Section C health needs- all is mentioned is his ASD diagnosis and then "J has associated eating and sleep issues". Does this need to be more specific if his needs are already covered by section B anyway? He got his diagnosis just before Christmas so I sent the caseworker his DSM report on the day I had it but all it is cobbled together copy and paste job from all the other professional reports so theres no real health needs info to add from it.

Section F- Is there such a thing as too specific for some things, will an LA then if it's an issue for special schools on something advise that when the consultations come back or is it a simple no we can't meet needs?

For example one of the EPs recommendations in section F is that he has a "quiet breakout area on the periphery of the class with sensory toys provided" as his current nursery has been able to do this for him on top of having a sensory room he goes to in a small group.
Of the schools we ve visited one of them could fit this without issue, the others are more sensory room just down the corridor where they take 2/3 children when needed or a room attached to the classroom with the door which would also fit his regulatory needs.

FFS. Just had the amended EHCP draft for checking. All woolly language, and I’ve just spotted the words ‘handicapped’ and ‘passive’. Plus a large portion of it is not accurate as he has progressed significantly in the last 6 months.

My heckles rose straight away to ‘handicapped’ and quick look at the government document on inclusive language clearly states these are not acceptable terms.
Looks like my weekend will be spent stewing and going through this with a fine tooth comb. With then another long wait while it’s amended again…

That is absolutely atrocious wording, that must have been awful to get.

@RibbyJumper sorry the EHCP is rubbish and upsetting.

@1995SENNDMUM the provision in the EHCP should be written to meet DS’s needs, not to fit the school.

The wording you describe about the sensory space isn’t too specific.

All health care needs should be in C and all health care provision should be in G. Although things like SALT are actually special educational provision and belong in F with the needs that meet in B.

Without disclosing my location too obviously 😂, where we live has 7 SEN primary schools within 7 miles all oversubscribed of course and we ve seen 2 of them (others are well past the 15 days to get a visit in) but on paper 6 of them seem like they could fit his needs so going to name those 6 to be consulted.

Just wanted to be sure it wasn't so specific that the ones with classrooms that cant fit a sensory space right in the room weren't ruled out with that bit of section F.
Health wise they haven't mentioned his eczema, but hopefully as it's more controlled we won't be asking school to apply creams but otherwise I just wasn't sure if they needed more on his autism in C as it's all covered in B anyway.

@1995SENNDMUM a sensory space that provides what you posted could be sorted in the vast majority of classrooms. It could be a small pop up tent or material draped over a table. It is not too specific.

Autism can result in health care needs/provision in addition to the special educational needs/provision, but anything that educates or trains and the needs corresponding to that provision should be in B&F (although sometimes will be in C&G too).

Unless the schools are wholly independent, being ‘full’, which isn’t defined in law, is not enough of a reason on its own to refuse to name your preference.

@BrightYellowTrain
That makes sense on the sections thank you. I know being "full would mean we could appeal and go to tribunal to push for a place somewhere, it's just that anxiety of it needing to then take the months even if we can request it brought forward as a phase transfer.

I m hoping we ve pushed things through fast enough to get the consults in the nick of time for the 6 more local options when the children's who already have their plans phase transfers are being done too. His caseworker and other local parents (and a deputy head at one of the schools we were able to visit 😅) have implied the phase transfers weren't sorted in February in many previous years.

@RibbyJumper that's dreadful language, how dare they?! I'm sorry it's so upsetting, even to get to that stage is so hard fought for.

@1995SENNDMUM the timing of it at this time of year is a bit eeek isn't it? Had an email from the council saying they'd withdrawn our secondary application as an EHCP has been issued, but no consultation outcome as yet (it's actually the school that was first on our list anyway, and that we would have got into on distance...). But just feels very odd to have no security!

@Macramepotholder
Oh we point blank refused to apply to a mainstream school, his nursery has offered to let him stay longer if things don't work out with getting a place though so we do have a plan B.

It's just been a bit of a mad few weeks, he got his autism diagnosis on December 19th then a draft less than a month later. By the skin of our teeth did we get his primary need as autism rather than communication and interaction, still in a bit of shock to have gotten this far finally.

Hope they follow logic and you get the school that you applied for initially.

the LA is responsible for ensuring the provision detailed, specified and quantified in F is provided. This is an absolute duty under section 42 of the Children and Families Act 2014 and is non-delegable. Provision in F doesn’t have to be in school.

The LA has a duty under section 19 of the Education Act 1996 to ensure DC receive a suitable full-time education where they wouldn’t receive that unless such provision is made for them. Your DC are not receiving a suitable full-time education. The LA must ensure they do. It is the LA’s responsibility.

@BrightYellowTrain Have been chasing the LA all week about s19 provision. They have said 1) that it is the school's duty to arrange and 2) because we're in tribunal, it has to be handled through the LA's SEN appeals team.

The SEP in the EHCP is not full-time provision (eg, DS's EHCP says funding is for 15 hours/week), so am I right to point out that additional AP must be arranged and also to say that the duty to provide AP under s19 is separate from our appeals?

In terms of school saying they can't deliver section F provision outside of school, can the LA make other arrangements or is this another issue that's down to the wording in the Plan? Thank you.

@1995SENNDMUM sadly it isn’t unusual for LAs to breach the phase transfer deadline.

@SpaceInvader321 the LA is lying to you.

The LA is responsible for anything in F, whether that is via school or otherwise. It does, however, depend on the wording being detailed, specified and quantified.

The LA is ultimately responsible for s19 provision. This duty is separate to the EHCP process. Even if nothing or very little in F is enforceable, this duty still exists.

If the LA is refusing to provide s19 provision or is in breach of s42 of the CFA 2014 and threatening JR to the DCS hasn’t worked, you need a pre-action letter. It may be worth emailing the Monitoring Officer too.