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Original poster

AIBU to be angry at school so early in...

377 replies

misskellyb · 07/09/2023 20:29

My son is being assessed for autism and a strong possibility of ADHD (can't assess yet as he's too young).

He has a lot of sensory processing difficulties. One of these being toileting. He has just started reception at a small, one form school and is still in nappies. He is on daily laxatives and regularly soils. Therefore he is still in nappies. He will not toilet train. If he wears pants (and sometimes even when wearing nappies - if he's in uncomfortable environments) he will withhold his wee and poo up until the point of getting so unwell he requires enemas at hospital or ends up with severe stomach pains from not weeing. When he has pants on he has a tendency to poo his pants with the overflow of poo and requires changing of his clothes and pants regularly.

He had his first day in reception yesterday. He had his nappy changed once and was introduced to the toilet but showed no interest in following his peers and using it. I'm hoping in time he will be comfortable enough to start using a toilet at school. However today, when we got home I noticed his nappy was still in his bag and his nappy hadn't been changed and was full of wee and poo. I will be raising this with the school tomorrow.

He also struggles with transitions, one of these being transitions with clothing. For example on a morning he for some reason refuses to change out of his pyjamas and will meltdown to the point that some days he has to stay in pyjamas. He struggles going from season to season changing from summer clothing (shorts and short sleeved t shirts to jumpers and trousers and vice versa). As you know it's extremely hot and he was left in his school jumper all day at school today. I confronted the school when he walked out in a jumper and The school said they asked him to change out of his jumper but he said no, so he was left to play all day in a wooly jumper with a soiled, wet nappy( I was unaware of the nappy being unchanged at this time).

As he does have additional needs I've asked the teacher if they will feed back to me regularly how he is getting on as his speech is somewhat delayed. The teacher said that they have 30 other children so this isn't possible. AIBU to be abit annoyed about this? I acknowledge their high numbers of children however surely for SEN children they can find a way to prioritise feeding back to parents, weekly, fortnightly, monthly? She said no news is good news so if I hear nothing all is fine. But the news that my sons nappy wasn't changed today and the news that he wouldn't change out of his school jumper is surely news I should be made aware of and not having to find out for myself?

AIBU to be annoyed they left him in a dirty nappy all day? Especially in this heat! They have a duty of care and this is just neglect. He will be prone to infections if this carries on and possibly bullying if other children smell or notice the nappy. The school have had multiple meetings with me regarding his needs and his continence issues. I spoke the school on his first day yesterday to make sure the reception teachers were aware he needs his nappy changed and support around toileting and they assured me this is fine. They also have clinic letters from paediatricians and the continence team outlining that my son will need regular toilet breaks and support around toileting and changing.

I try everything at home to encourage toileting. But toileting issues have been his whole life. We've tried everything and I mean, everything. To the point where no more reward charts, sensory toys, or bribery will encourage him and it's just a waiting game for it to be on his terms but in the process I don't want him facing difficulties at school for this and personal hygiene issues.

You'd think second day in they'd be on the ball as well and I'm just worried this is the start of problems to come.

OP posts:
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Original poster
misskellyb · 07/09/2023 22:38

Dolores87 · 07/09/2023 21:04

I wouldn't just be annoyed about this I would be angry. It's neglectful. The wooly jumper could lead to heat stroke in this heat and if they couldn't convince him to take it off they should have called you and the soiled nappy could burn his skin and make him vulnerable to bullying. They absolutely should change it. He should have more then one nappy in his bag and it should be changed every few hours and after any poo.

I disagree about the guns blazing comments. I would go in guns blazing but calm so what I mean by that is I wouldn't be taking excuses as an acceptable answer but would remain friendly, calm but stern about it.

My son had to start school soiling himself due to a health condition. They tried to say they were not legally allowed to change him at all. This is not true. Then they tried to say they couldn't do it as they needed two members of staff, this again is legally not true. I ended up going in "guns blazing" in that I basically made an appointment with the head and refused to accept any excuses. I turned up with printed out legislation with highlighted sections and when the head tried to make excuses I basically calmly shut her down and said that it was neglect on their part and it wasn't acceptable. This led to her backing down and "seeing what they could do" and an appointment with the SENCO and they resolved the issues and they took care of his needs after that. Sometimes the TA changed him other times they sent a message to reception and staff from elsewhere changed him. If there was absolutely noone who could do it, which was rare when they actually agreed to do it, they would call me and I would go in and change him.

There is a charity called Eric who should be able help you and advise you of this.

All the "it isn't a teacher's job, it isn't a TAs job" stuff...honestly no. It doesn't matter whose job it is or isn't, it's a child being left in shit, whilst in the schools care. It doesn't really matter of changing a nappy is in the job description, someone has to do it, it's not ok to leave a child in poo because everyone says it's not their job.

Edited

Thank you and I'm sorry you had to go through this.

OP posts:
Greensleeves · 07/09/2023 22:39

Blancc · 07/09/2023 21:13

The school isn't the right place for him, but it's not their fault you picked it instead of somewhere appropriate for his needs.

Of course mainstream primary teachers can't change nappies and contact all parents who ask them to just for updates. They're teaching the whole class.

Speaking as an early years teacher, your post is utter nonsense. OP isn't responsible for the allocation of her son's school place, he is legally entitled to a full time education as every child is, and if you don't know how rare it is to get a place in a special school then you must have been living under a rock.

OP is right to be angry. The school has this child enrolled as a pupil and have been made aware of his needs. They are legally responsible for meeting those needs and it is their responsibility to make that happen, and to apply for any funding or additional resources they need to do so.

It isn't presumptuous or selfish or naive for the parent of a child with SEND to send their child to the school at which they have been allocated a place, and they don't have to accept that their child will be neglected and left sitting in his own shit. I'm appalled by some of the responses here.

SnowWhiteAndTheTwoKids · 07/09/2023 22:39

cansu · 07/09/2023 20:55

You say yourself that he refuses to change from pjs and stays in them all day sometimes, struggles with transitions, has frequent dirty nappies etc etc. He quite clearly needs much more support than the school can provide with one TA for the class.

Absolutely this...the OP says the child may need changing every 30 minutes! That's madness to expect that of the class TA. The school will have to self-fund a 1:1 for 2 terms until EHCP can be applied for. There is also SENDIF funding available in some LA's that the school may be able to apply for...or, find a special school that may meet his needs better.

Rudolphthefrog · 07/09/2023 22:39

SeulementUneFois · 07/09/2023 22:30

@Rudolphthefrog

But @hamsterchump is right: firstly that it is disgusting. And secondly that people shouldn't do something disgusting just because their employer asks them, if it's not expressly in their job description.

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I agree nobody should be compelled to do something not in their job description. Reasonable enough to ask school staff though.

But the repetition of “disgusting” about changing a child’s nappy (or a disabled or elderly adult’s for that matter) just isn’t appropriate. It’s hurtful - these aren’t situations people choose to be in, it’s often undignified enough already and making a big deal about how “disgusting” it is having to meet a child’s basic needs is just unnecessary. If you don’t want to change nappies then don’t, but quit being nasty about it.

Marmalady75 · 07/09/2023 22:40

In my setting it takes 2 people to do changes due to safeguarding. If the teacher and ta are changing a child, who is with the other 29? Are they left to their own devices? It could take quite some time with a child who doesn’t know the adults yet and refuses to remove clothes. I would be very uncomfortable stripping off a child against their will to change a nappy. I would be uncomfortable leaving the other 29 without an adult. What if other children in the class need the same level of support? I can’t spend half the day in the toilet persuading children to take off their clothes
the school need to either employ someone else or rejig their support staff timetables.

Dogonthebeach · 07/09/2023 22:40

This all sounds so tricky OP. I’ve got two children with autism (both have adhd, the youngest has severe speech issues, both with sensory issues). The eldest went through a mainstream primary with a ft 1:1 and an ehcp. I did a parental request. We moved to a specialist secondary as our local mainstream basically didn’t want them and we didn’t want them going to a school who couldn’t be bothered and wouldn’t follow the EHCP.

Check out Ipsea’s website. The threshold for an assessment is low but LAs usually say no first as they’re bastards. Do not believe a word they say as they’ll twist the law. Youngest has an ehcp via parental request and went to specialist school.

Is there anywhere to change your son at school? I imagine it can be hard for staff with 30 kids in the class and possibly 1 TA. Were school completely aware of his needs? How things look on paper compared to the child in person can sometimes look different.

We have issues with transition between clothes and it’s very hard as parents to deal with so I imagine in schools it can be very challenging. I remember one holiday abroad and my youngest was in a stage of having to wear a coat if they wore shoes. I had to find the thinnest coat as taking it away even using visuals it invoked huge meltdowns where they’d harm themselves.

I wouldn’t go in guns blazing but calmly speaking to the school about what support they can put in place. How you move forward.

Schools have very limited funding. I’ve friends who are teachers and they say it’s very hard in schools now and I completely agree with inclusive education but it has to be right for the child within what mainstream schools can offer.

Supertayto · 07/09/2023 22:41

Senior leader in education here. I would absolutely take the school to task on this. It indicates that there isn’t a child centred approach in place. It is very, very difficult to accommodate complex needs in a class of 30 with no 1:1, BUT leaving a child in a dirty nappy all day is disgracefully neglectful. The disregard for his dignity and wellbeing is astonishing. I wouldn’t lay the blame with the teacher or TA, my
money is that what is happening with your son is part of a wider culture issue. If no solid plan is in place to manage his needs then that lays with the leadership. Awful.

BellaAndDave · 07/09/2023 22:42

hamsterchump · 07/09/2023 22:21

What if the staff just refuse? I'd point blank refuse to change nappies if I was them, it's disgusting.

Fair enough if they can employ someone who takes the job on knowingly but it's not part of a teacher's role and if it's going to be from now on then I would expect the recruitment for teachers to fall off a cliff even more than it has recently which will not help anyone.

Would you just do anything your employer asked of you? However disgusting and outside of your normal job role? Most wouldn't and it shouldn't be encouraged, it would only erode employee rights further.

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In all my years of teaching I never changed a nappy and refused to do so. I recall an incident when all the school TAs refused to change nappies and brought their Union in, some additional TAs were employed on different contacts after that happened.

Original poster
misskellyb · 07/09/2023 22:42

captainflash · 07/09/2023 21:19

Right, I’m a primary headteacher. Here’s what I advise.
1- Ring and ask for a meeting with the school SENCO. Every school legally has to has one and their name will be on the school
website so you know who to ask for.
2- Don’t be unnecessarily cross with the teacher/ TA. You’ve complained about the lack of support from nursery so it could well be that there has been a lack of handover/ transition. Unless there is gross negligence, I assure you the Reception staff are just doing their best.
3- When you meet with the SENCO, you need to complete an intimate care plan to allow staff to change your child. I actually wouldn’t let my staff change without one as it’s opening up a massive safeguarding can of worms. That needs to be done as a matter of urgency. And yes actually, I would want 2 members of staff to do it. To safeguard everyone. Children and staff
4- when you meet with the SENCO, ask them to refer you to the school nurse continence team for support. Also ask your GP for support.
5- ask the SENCO to refer to the social communication team to offer you more support on your ASD pathway
6- Don’t do another EHCPNA yourself. I know there is parental right to submit them, but a vast number of these fail- as yours did. There is a craft to doing them. One jointly written and support from an experienced SENCO will have a higher chance of success. As you are in a new setting, the school will
still be asked for their opinion/ recommendations/ support plan so please do it together to show a united front. The school can also submit a costed provision map worth it to get more chance of success for funding.
7- Contact SENDIAS in your local authority- they are very helpful.

Sorry for any typos and well done to anyone who made it through!

Thank you. Very informative.

OP posts:
OvertakenByLego · 07/09/2023 22:43

SnowWhiteAndTheTwoKids · 07/09/2023 22:39

Absolutely this...the OP says the child may need changing every 30 minutes! That's madness to expect that of the class TA. The school will have to self-fund a 1:1 for 2 terms until EHCP can be applied for. There is also SENDIF funding available in some LA's that the school may be able to apply for...or, find a special school that may meet his needs better.

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The OP doesn’t need to wait 2 terms to apply for an EHCP. She is highly unlikely to get a place in a special school without an EHCP.

JessieJoJames · 07/09/2023 22:45

Given your expectations of nappy changes every 30 mins, monitoring lunch, clothing (which you admit is a problem even for you) and daily updates of everything - I am surprised you thought he could get by without 1-2-1 support. There is no way a TA and a teacher could give him this amount of attention without the rest of the class suffering.

I would keep him home for another year until you can appeal and secure more support.

Original poster
misskellyb · 07/09/2023 22:45

neverbeenskiing · 07/09/2023 21:22

The level of support you're describing that your son needs is unheard of in a mainstream class of 30

Ha! It really, really isn't.

OP, if I were you I'd ask for this post to be moved to the SEN boards. There is a lot of misinformation on this thread. No, mainstream schools cannot legally exclude children for not being toilet trained. Yes, mainstream school staff can and do change nappies, and support with other aspects of personal care. Yes, it is their job.

Your DS needs an EHCP, but it is extremely common for the first application to be rejected even for DC with very high support needs. If the window for appeal has closed you need to re-apply. But in the meantime, the school will have to meet his needs and it is perfectly reasonable to ask them to change him regularly, ensure he is dressed appropriately for the weather and monitor his food intake. These are things plenty of mainstream schools do for kids with SEND every day, whether they have an EHCP or not.

How do I request the change to a different board? Thanks

OP posts:
Justhavinganose · 07/09/2023 22:46

Deputy head (and Reception teacher) here and I don’t think that YABU at all! We have many many children with SEN needs and every year some of those require changing/ support with toileting. Those saying mainstream is not the right environment for him obviously don’t understand how stretched and underfunded the SEND service is as getting a place in a special school is incredible difficult and increasingly only reserved for high level needs. Many children who really should be in specialist provision stay in mainstream and often sadly without the adequate funding. However, that doesn’t excuse the lack of care or communication. Absolutely speak to the teacher and request a meeting with the SENDCO. A home/school diary is relatively normal for children with additional needs so I don’t think expecting some communication is too much to ask. There is no excuse for then leaving your son in a soiled nappy for an extended period of time and that absolutely needs addressing.

Upwiththelark76 · 07/09/2023 22:46

OP . Start the process for an EHCP.
your child’s needs seem incredibly high abs beyond what a teacher and a TA in a mainstream school can manage

SnowWhiteAndTheTwoKids · 07/09/2023 22:47

Redlocks30 · 07/09/2023 22:26

That is incorrect as well, but many LAs would still say it’s necessary!

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In my LA it's not possible. I know of some ridiculous cases where we had to do the support self-funded first...one child had Down's, another had no legs. We still had to fund 1:1s as if our support was going to suddenly make funding unnecessary at the end of the 2 terms! Children don't regrow legs.

crochetmonkey74 · 07/09/2023 22:47

Definitely press forward for more support and clear pathway. This is way beyond mainstream needs

Original poster
misskellyb · 07/09/2023 22:47

GlobetrottingPercy · 07/09/2023 21:24

OP, I have nothing else to offer that other posters haven’t already covered but I just wanted to say, it sounds like your son is being incredibly brave by putting himself in this new situation and going in every morning when it is so different to what he is used to. You must be so proud of him.

Thank you I am very very proud. Of all the difficulties he's faced and continues to face daily, he's gone in, reluctantly but as he walks in to the school doors I can't help but feel proud of him. He comes out smiling which I guess is the positive I can take away from this. But our children really are exceptional and teach us more about life than we ever knew. So thank you for this.

OP posts:
BellaAndDave · 07/09/2023 22:48

misskellyb · 07/09/2023 22:45

How do I request the change to a different board? Thanks

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@MNHQ

Hopefully they’ll see this and move it for you OP.

Marleymoo42 · 07/09/2023 22:49

Don't go in all guns blazing. They made a mistake. They will learn your sons needs but they are also learning the needs of 30 other 4 year olds starting school for the first time. Last year i had three children who were not toilet trained and 7 children likely to need an EHCP. There will be many others with additional needs.

I also think the teacher was being fair setting boundaries about how much time she has to give to you. Speak to her tomorrow. Your goal is to build a good relationship with this teacher. Without the school on side everything will be harder. It wasn't acceptable that your son sat in a soiled nappy and you are right to be upset but being angry won't help your child.

Original poster
misskellyb · 07/09/2023 22:50

Nazzywish · 07/09/2023 21:24

OP this isn't right. Uts not fair on your son, not fair on that teacher who has 30 kids to look after and not fair on those 30 other kids if your son needs 121 and they don't get their teaching time properly. All around this just doesn't work, set upma meeting with school as his needs seem quite high and you need to fight to get an echp earlier,maybe the school could provide evidence earlier than the 2 terms they've said, otherwise they need to address this as its just going to get worse and at worse your son embarrassed if he stays soiled and leaks etc, kids can be cruel and it will have such a detrimental effect on him staying like this.

I worry so much as he can't comprehend that being in a nappy and smelling of poo will have an affect on his school life. I can't bare to think that that smile could potentially fade eventually if this doesn't get sorted asap and he's wandering around smelling or with a huge nappy bulge. It's crossed my mind and my heart breaks thinking about it.

OP posts:
Xrays · 07/09/2023 22:50

This is absolutely not okay. Not at all.

You can apply for an ehcp yourself. We did. Everyone said our son wouldn’t get one. We pushed and pushed and he had one before he even started school - a specialist school everyone said he wouldn’t get a place at. Again, we pushed. I’m not saying you need a specialist place if that’s what you don’t want - mainstream should be able to accommodate- the point I’m making is don’t listen to anyone who tells you that you won’t / can’t get things. Be resilient, professional but pushy. Always. My son is now 11 and has had all sorts of interventions and help people told us we wouldn’t get, but he has.

Outtatherepronto · 07/09/2023 22:50

I’m a TA in reception doing a mixture of 1:1 and general TA.
Please speak to the teacher to discuss this though as both issues are awful. I change my 1:1 at least twice a day and they’re on a reduced timetable at the moment. I also change any other children who need support. Our classrooms are also super hot at the moment so being left in a jumper just isn’t good enough, if they’re not removing his jumper, are they at least encouraging him to drink?!

tonystarksrighthand · 07/09/2023 22:50

Gymrabbit · 07/09/2023 21:07

Unfortunately those who are surprised he is mainstream are clearly not familiar with the current situation.
my friend who works as a sen advisor went into a mainstream reception reaction where there Was a child who could not support his own head and whose only reaction was to light and noise…..

Genuine question, why would you send your child to mainstream school with such complex needs?

SnowWhiteAndTheTwoKids · 07/09/2023 22:51

OvertakenByLego · 07/09/2023 22:43

The OP doesn’t need to wait 2 terms to apply for an EHCP. She is highly unlikely to get a place in a special school without an EHCP.

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Private SEN schools are available...of course you don't need to wait 2 terms but in my area they would just reject EHCP instantly without evidence of the support.

I'm not saying the OP shouldn't push for it though. Sounds like this kid needs it!

Original poster
misskellyb · 07/09/2023 22:51

OverTheCountryClub · 07/09/2023 21:27

OP apply for an EHCP now. You can do a parental request. You have been fobbed off continually. You don't need to have had two terms in school - my son has one and he doesn't start school for another year. We are currently appealing for a special needs place because we are sure our son won't manage in mainstream. The default response to any ehcp application is "no" - expect it and then move forward, appealing and fighting and complaining. Your poor son - this country is a fucking disgrace. I'm not blaming the teachers or you - it's the system that's broken - but you are right to be upset and right to expect more. The posters on this thread blaming you are ignorant and I can only envy them for it. Life is a constant, constant battle with a child with additional needs and there is zero support or help.

Yeah it's failing and it's so, so hard. I do feel like I've been fobbed off. This was all around the time the video was trending on the internet saying parents are applying for ehcp because it's the 'in thing to do'. I could scream because I know it's not just me and my child going through this.

OP posts: