Misguided Illusion Part II - Baby still not sleeping through by six months? Come and join us!

[MomOrMum]

Thought I would start a fresh thread as, sadly, we have almost filled the first one.

Feral, Kiwi, Chulita, et al...shouldn't we have graduated from this thread by now?!

Now welcoming a new crop of 6 months+ babies determined to help us reach new heights/depths of sleep deprivation.

Here is the original thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/sleep/713951-Support-thread-for-those-who-were-under-the-misguided-illusion

Thanks Rycie, that will make DH feel better.

We think we've managed to get down to two night feeds, although unintentionally the last two nights have been one night feed only (because DS wasn't awake at the "right" times, oh and started today at 5.15am). But if anything we are having more and longer night wakings.

DS is just really, really unsettled at night, and then miserable during the day. I really hate the way that this dominates our lives and is sapping all of our energy .

My sincere sympathies "isit", I know just what you mean about the energy sapping - in fact, everyone on this thread probably does! .

The worst part is how difficult the exhaustion makes it to enjoy the rest of it all, its just an endless battle to get them to sleep. But I just keep telling myself, this WILL end - at some point she will sleep through. I'm holding out hope for when she's old enough for me to bribe her - its my last resort strategy!

Hey IsItMeOr, sounds like you're getting somewhere with the feeding but does sound like there's something else going on of he's still waking? Has DH survived work so far? Tough time for you all, but as Rycie says it can not last for ever!

JollyBaby has top front teething just breaking, her cold is now on her chest but the last 2 nights have been not bad at all. Still waking twice for feeds but getting later, have just finished now so 1 ish and hopefully next one will be 6 ish. Am going back to work 2nd week of Dec and did foolishly think DD would be well on the way to sleeping through. (The last time she did was on holiday at the beginning of Oct, so I know she can). Oh well , bye for now....

Hello ladies

I've been lurking a bit and feel your pain. After another dreadful night with DS (7mo) and a totally de-moralising conversation with my Mum yesterday I had to finally post.

From the sounds of it I actually don't have things as bad as some of you, so goodness knows how you function.

DS goes to sleep fine at bedtime after a BF and sleeps until between 10 and 11. He may or may not settle in his cot for another hour or so but after 12/1am we co-sleep and he wakes for feed/tummy ache/cuddle/play every 2 or less hours. Finally waking for the day about 6.

The last week we have put DP in spare room so he can give me a whole night off at the w/e (which was lovely but now I want more! . Plus it gives DS and I more room.

I am not up for CC (yet!) and am doing BLW which really suits DS, but after talking to my Mum I feel rubbish. She thinks I should give up BF, spoon feed, put an extra blanket on DS and that I won't be able to get him out of my bed (which I might not but at the moment I just need as much sleep as poss)

Sorry to be all me,me,me but I need a cuddle!!

havingagiraffe - so sorry you have to join us here - commiserations, a virtual cuddle a and have a .

I just wanted to sympathise with the Mum thing. My mum is an absolute love and really hesitates to offer advice, but when she does...yes, the reason DS isn't sleeping is because we're not (spoon)feeding him enough during the day. Oh, and playing him a cd of lullabyes at bedtime will make all the difference . Although, to be fair, quietly singing a lullabye does calm DS down when he's got into a real state .

Like you we are doing BLW, but as DS seemed to be getting frustrated with his inability to get as much food in as he wanted, I do now give him a pudding at each meal with a pre-loaded spoon. This works well for us with yoghurts, fromage frais and the plum baby fruit squishy things. But no, Mum, DS doesn't like it if we try to hold onto the spoon actually .

Sorry, no advice there really, but remember your Mum almost certainly means it kindly, and probably never had the problems you are having, so really can't understand it.

Sorry you had to join havingagiraffe - it's so horrible being tired, isn't it?

I now realise how things were getting better - now the DS is either teething again or still ill - not sure what is up (he is waking up lots and really will not nap unless bf for ages). Must be a tooth I think. Only 18 more to go!

Hope that someone has some cheering news. Any brilliant sleep discoveries?

I just wish I had done more sorting out of DS (dropping feeds, water, cc or whatever) before he had learnt to SIT UP and STAND UP - def harder for him to go back to sleep and it is heartbreaking seeing him crying standing up for some reason!

O well... it'll all pass.....

dycey I am such a wuss, I hate to see DS cry in any position. But if it's really worse with them standing up, maybe DH is right that we should try CC next week.

Only positive news to report is that DS looks really cute in his new Molo romper suit - it has a van and "Self Service" on the front, which is apt for BFing and BLWing, but obviously not for the sleeping. Yet.

Hi All, not been on for a while, but not because we've suddenly had sleeping through
The progress we have had is that DD goes down most evenings at about same time as DS - she goes somewhere between 6.30 and 7.30pm, either before or after his story time. It is now over a week since I had the terrible bedtime of 2 hours - where I did a little bit of cc - i.e. if she was happy, left her in her cot, let her grumble and then cry for about a minute or two before going back in to get her. She ended up cuddling to sleep, but since then even if awake after her feed has gone down within half an hour (I always fear saying things are getting better for fear it will jinx it!). Still up at least twice a night - last night up 3 times and two of those for quite a while. Am managing to do most feeds in the chair to try not to put her back down totally asleep, but last night, was in bed with her for the latter two feeds. Am wondering if it will ever end?...

HavingaGiraffe - sorry you had to join. Can sympathise with the Mum thing, my Mum is great, but does say things that suggest we all slept through much younger, then she said the other day that through a reminiscing conversation, she realised that my sister was still waking in the night for feeds at 7.5 months... so just bear in mind, I think as it was a fair while ago for our parents, they do tend to forget and see it through rose-tinted specs. I have already forgotten the various stages we went through with DS and when he exactly started sleeping through) although he was younger than DD is now... So, IsItMe - keep the notes your DH is making, if you go onto another, you will be glad to have notes written of what you did that worked, so you can try similar tactics with the next DC!

Right, must wash up and do some ironing, while I have some peace (hopeful emoticon!)

Dycey - totally sympathise with the standing thing, I agree that I wish we had sorted DD sleeping before she could sit and stand (but I didn't anticipate her starting to crawl at 6.5 months!). I thought I was the only one with a baby who stands up to cry rather than try and settle - is a nightmare for trying to stop night feeds, as she just stands up in her cot, either being happily awake, or crying

Starshinetiger I'm sure you're right about Mum's not remembering how it was. My mum quite straightforwardly says she doesn't remember hardly anything - especially about me as I was her dc4. There are very few photos of me as a baby. She says people didn't take so many photos in those days, but doesn't explain why there are more of dc1 now, does it? Sorry, am just rambling now. Must get off to bed before DS starts waking.

Things were so different back then - my mom started us on solid foods at 1 month - a teaspoon of banana if I recall (all under doctors advice). Also sleep training consisted of leaving to cry (not even controlled crying) and the odd course of sedatives!!

Haha Rycie my Mum did tell me that the HV told her to put us in our prams in the garden so that she couldn't hear us crying. But I'm assured prams were very much more substantial in those days. My fellow new mums seem to be concerned about urban foxes carrying off their little ones if they left them to sleep in the garden. I guess there's more of them around than there used to be too.

'lo all.

Just wanted to report on our journey towards (hopefully) better sleep.

DH and I have agreed on a Plan. Operation Tough Love involves the use of Controlled Crying to give DS the opportunity to learn to settle himself to sleep and to stretch the gaps between night feeds so that we only have one between bedtime and morning feeds.

My terms were that we got DS checked out to reassure ourselves that there was nothing actually wrong with him. Very nice GP checked him out on Weds and said she couldn't find anything at all (she recommended stretching and CC, coincidentally). Osteopath had a look at him yesterday and could only find a few small areas of compression/tension, which they can apparently help with, but nothing that they would expect to cause major sleep disruption (she thought there would be a large degree of habit involved).

So, satisfied that he's basically okay we're ready to start, just as soon as he gets over the cold that is bothering him. But - courtesy of said cold - after a couple of really unsettled hours, water, calpol and an early nightfeed, DS SLEPT FOR 7 HOURS STRAIGHT last night from 11-6, and so did we! Am not expecting a repeat performance tonight, but still, it was welcome.

I've also noticed that DS is doing much better during the days this week - less whingey. I think this might be that he is at last able to move around a bit on his own, so he's less frustrated than he has been. It's the first time I can remember enjoying his company for a long while which makes me both and at the same time.

Apologies for the essay ! Hope everybody else is doing okay.

Hi IsItMe - Yay for DS' good sleep last night - 7 hours straight is fantastic!!! Your strategy sounds good and I will be watching with interest to see how you go. How old is your DS again?
I have come to the concensus that DD really is still hungry for food at the 4 hourly interrvals (i.e. twice in night) she is waking. She is still mostly eating fruit and veg during day, because she won't take anything else, but did have some pasta yesterday. We have a few disrupted weeks with things going on - going to Mum's and then up to Scotland, so am going to let her go for next couple of weeks and then come the 9 month mark, will be getting tough with her re. feeding and sleeping.
Am feeling like it's just me and you left here IsItMe?! I just spend every day wishing I had let DD self-settle when she was a lot younger, but as she has never made any great progress on the growth charts - just stabilised at her line, or occasionally dropped below it, so have never had the confidence not to feed her
Am feeling very teary today, so had better not post any more!

Hey Starshinetiger - know EXACTLY what you mean about feeling teary. This sleep deprivation is a killer and I have had lots of very low days.

DS is coming about 81/2 months, so sounds like he may be similar age to your DD?

Do keep posting, even if it is just you and me!

Did I mention that Ferber says in his book that if your dc is taking a significant amount of food at the nightfeeds, he will be hungry at night? If only nibbling, then it will be for comfort. He says it would be inhumane to go cold turkey on them if they're genuinely hungry, and suggests stretching the gaps by half an hour a night. This made sense to me, and is what we are gradually doing.

On the food - are you BLW or puree? And BF or FF? Although, I think it shouldn't really matter that much to them sleeping through (although, you know why my Mum says lol!).

I will post updates so you can take our experience into account when planning your own Tough Love!

Thanks IsItMeOr. Haven't read Ferber's book (have several others). DD is exclusively bf (refuses a bottle ) and is a mixture of BLW and puree - she likes the finger food, but gets very frustrated by not getting satisfied quickly enough IYKWIM. Having heard from others what their babies are eating, I can see she is not eating great amounts of solid food by any great swathes, but she won't take more. So, we are trying slow progress. She is taking more of an interest in food. I have decided that she is genuinely hungry at night - on the two occasions I have tried to settle her without a feed, I have give in after 1.45-2 hours and she has fed both times. Last night at each feed she fed for ca. 15 mins, so a really good food. So, as I say, have decided to run with it for next couple of weeks, try to increase amount of solid food in day, try to get her to take a bottle too (for purely selfish reasons - i.e. so I can have an evening out ), keep getting her down for naps without a feed and in evening if she doesn't pretty much doze off with bedtime feed. Then we'll see where she is at 9 months.
I will keep posting, even if it is just the two of us - I guess that should be reassuring to us - if everyone else has disappeared because they are now getting sleep?!
Is very interesting about the stretching - will bear that in mind too.
Wishing you a good night

Hee hee - technically I haven't read Ferber's book, DH tells me this is what it says .

Honestly, your DD sounds quite like my DS and it has only been the past few weeks that he has been feeding less at night - actually taking longer but it is because he's so sleepy, I'm pretty confident less is actually going in. Does your DD feed at the same times every night? DS didn't, which I thought might make the stretching harder, and it was pretty difficult (it was only my being scareder of DH being cross with me than I was of not giving into DS that stopped me feeding him sometimes lol), but it was only a few nights in the big scheme of things. You would need your DH to help imo.

Hi sleepless friends, we're still here ATM.!
So pleased for IsItBaby, it is great when you find out that they are capable of sleeping for long stretches isn't it? Hooray! Good luck with the continuued tough love plan, I'll be reading your progress.
We have taken the advice of HV and as I now FF we have started to dilute the night feeds with the aim of getting it to water then supposedly DD will no longer wake?! This is of course as long as she has enough in the day, again the aim for now is as follows, breakfast of fruit, yoghurt, toast followed by 6 fl oz milk, lunch of whatever ( yesterday was chicken strips, sweet potatoe, followed by pear) and another bottle of 6 fl oz, tea fruit and another bottle then bottle to settle at bed time. We acheived all that and I fed her a watered down bottle last night at 2 ( just thought that perhaps I should be posting on a weaning thread too! :-/) She woke at 5 today so tried another watery bottle and she's just thrown the whole lot up again! Oh well guess my day starts here! IsItMeOr and StarShineTiger . as you BF thought you might be interested in the volumes.

Hello all

things changing here.... not for the much better tho. DS (9months) seems to have dropped to one day sleep and so have to put him to bed an hour earlier with subsequent 5am starts - ugh.

starShineTiger - I also think DS is hungry at his 4 hour wakes for milk (and he eats incredibly well during the day often and that makes no difference). ANd he is 9 months and that is when I told myself I would get tough - enough is enough. But I hate to hear him / see him upset so will find it difficult to do anything.

Formula at bedtime (a whole bottle) used to make him do 6 hours. Now only 4. WHy?

Soon I will need to do something and I suspect it will have to be a cold turkey approach, water and DH. But not yet.....

But he will stand there screaming for ages, I just know...... O O O

Hope your Friday nights were better than usual.

(Waves)

jollygreenmama I felt so much better for that sleep! First time in 81/2months that I slept for more than about 31/2 consecutive hours (and has obviously been a lot less than that recently). Didn't happen again last night, although he still only had a couple of periods of wakefulness (so two feeds), but again the first was earlier than we'd usually feed him and seemed to be upset by his cold.
PS IsItMeGranny would suggest you should try giving DD a more substantial solid tea - i.e. more than fruit, so including carbs and protein. Hasn't made any difference here mind!

dycey that lasting less time on bedtime FF thing is weird, isn't it? How do you feel about stretching him by 15-30mins per night (or even every two or three nights)? It is tough, but at least you feel as if you're helping them change gradually... I was quite persuaded by the idea that they will have learned to be hungry in the night now.

DH is feeling very down that we haven't been able to launch Operation Tough Love yet. Not because he looks forward to hearing DS crying, obviously, but in his words, he's run out of himself. I know you will all know what he means.

Hello - I'm still here too. Not much improvement here either. A couple of nights where Baby Sospan slept through (with a dream feed at 10) until 5 - but I find starting the day that early sooo hard! Would rather 1 waking and sleeping through until past 6.

Anyway, it's all gone wrong now. Poor DS picked up conjunctivitis from some grubby play group we went to this week (that's my theory anyway ) and is also - finally (at almost 10 months) - teething. So I am trying to put eye drops 4 times a day into the world's' wriggliest baby who is also very grumpy due to Teeth. He's also bitten his lip (now swollen and bleeding) with his new fangs twice today when plonking down from a standing position. So he's had a rough couple of days and is currently asleep (for now) in his buggy after waking up after a grand total of 30 mins in his cot and having to be jiggled back to sleep. We are not in for a good night.

IsItMeOr - yay for the 7 hour stretch and good luck for Operation TL.

Sorry everyone else is still suffering.

Also sorry everyone is suffering. Now we have a new tummy bug. Blimey, I might stop going to playgroups and parks for a while. Have the same theory sospan. Isitmeor when you stretch the feeds out what do you do with the DC when they wake? Do you sit and shush while they cry or pick them up or what? It is a good idea but I am such a soft touch I just crack when I am near him and he cries. I think I will just do the short sharp approach. Tho it might be less kind?

I find it reassuring there are others on this thread. Yesterday went out to lunch with lots of sleeping through babies. All the other babies slept through lunch (as good conventional babies do) and ours was up playing at the (rather formal) table. He had slept at 10.30 and then at 5pm - not conventional at all. Many surprised parents when I said when he naps and that I am still bfeeding at night... oh oh oh (again).

dycey the idea on stretching is that you will do anything to comfort your DC except to feed them until the planned stretch is reached. And then you feed them at the planned new time. For us, I think the worst we had was him awake for 90mins, so DH and I took it in turns to comfort him about 30mins at a time. In the end DS fell asleep before the time when I was allowed to feed him (DH is very strict, lol), so he actually got fed an hour or so later when he woke up again.

I have a feeling that DS has his naps at odd times, as I find it hard to get to any of the baby group things...may also be my incompetence at preparing food, as mornings seem to be one long run of BF, solids, BF, nap, BF, solids, BF, nap, BF and then we might be able to go out to play. At least it should help us avoid some of these nasty bugs. Sigh.

Hey all, just dropping by to wave in a bleary-eyed way. DD has been improving at night but now has a stinking cold aka baby flu and woke about 4 trillion and 3 times last night.

Can I ask, does anyone have a bad napper who is at nursery? DD is a terror for screaming at naptime in protest but she's starting nursery in the new year and god knows how they are going to get her to go to sleep... am fretting a bit about it

Hi KiwiPanda, I have same nap worries. My Mum is taking DS and I feed him to sleep at the mo (all his illnesses have conspired to get us into this situation). I am reassured that babies learn to sleep when with new carers - they just learn their ways I am told. Today I left very ill DS with DH and when I came back he was asleep on his chest - first time in months that it hasn't been me getting him off to sleep - so I think they will manage without us! (Am control freak over baby I am afraid and need to convince myself of this).

Thank you Isitmeor, maybe that is the way we will go. The whole forcing them to drop feeds thing seems unbearable to me. Maybe better in practise than in thought?

Hope you all sleep tight

Hello ladies,

After 11 months we've had 4 nights sleep...hurrah! You are not going to like the solution...

I'm back at work next week so obviously can not breast feed in the day and he has always refused a bottle, so we've been offering a bottle once a day and when he refuses it breastfeed instead. All of a sudden 2 weeks ago he started to down 6 fl ozs. After a week we started him on a morning bottle (hubbie will do the morning run so I can get to work early and get back early) and then he suddenly decided he had had enough of breastfeeding full stop. So he's now on a evening bottle as well and downs 9 fl ozs (could be more but that is all that I put in it). As soon as he took the evening bottle he slept through. Not counting my chickens yet as we've had false alarms before.

kiwi My son is a terrible napper but he was settling in at the childminders last week and I think she tired him out so much he just conked out on her shoulder in the middle of a soft play centre and then slept for 40 mins. I picked him up and he then fell asleep for an hour and a half!

Sorry to hear everyone is still struggling, fingers crossed for you all.