Misguided Illusion Part II - Baby still not sleeping through by six months? Come and join us!

[MomOrMum]

Thought I would start a fresh thread as, sadly, we have almost filled the first one.

Feral, Kiwi, Chulita, et al...shouldn't we have graduated from this thread by now?!

Now welcoming a new crop of 6 months+ babies determined to help us reach new heights/depths of sleep deprivation.

Here is the original thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/sleep/713951-Support-thread-for-those-who-were-under-the-misguided-illusion

Just wanted to pass on to carve and MrsM that the feeding before bath thing might be worth a try. On Sat night she did 7pm till 3am!!! Longest ever stretch woo hoo. Last night she did 7pm till midnight, but we didn't feed her. Got her back to sleep at 2am until 4.30 - that was her only feed of the night. Both nights DH was able to settle her at bedtime within about 10mins without much crying.

So maybe worth a try before you give up BFing? I am still confused about when to feed, and about whether to feed at 10pm and try and get her right through after that, but if she wakes after 5am I have to feed her otherwise she wakes DS.

I have been quite strict about naps, mainly because I am desperate to get them both down at lunchtime so I can have a break. DD usually has a 45min nap 2 hours after she wakes, then I try and get her down at 12ish and keep feeding her back to sleep until about 2. Its a bit hard now because she's not feeding to sleep anymore so I have to shush her for ages to get her back to sleep, and sometimes she just won't.

Carve - my DS self weaned from the breast at 8 months. I was so upset as wanted to feed him longer for his benefit but when I look back it was a godsend as it was his choice.

This time I wanted to feed DD for a year and go straight to cow's milk. DS won't drink cow's milk and still has a bottle but DD has never had bottles so I thought I'd go straight to cow's milk in a cup and by pass forumla altogether. I have actually bought a carton of made up carry on milk and have been giving her some in her cup and in cereal. Just to gradually cut the feeds down. I think I would rather just slowly wean her off than cut out whole feeds at a time. As it is she doesn't really want much from me midmorning now.

I don't really enjoy BF for me, I find it a hassle clothes wise and it is now getting really hot again here (I'm in Spain) and I feel like I smell of milk all the time. I do want to give my babies the best start though.

Also, I haven't had any signs of returning fertility yet and DH is saying that if I want a 3rd baby it has to created be at the end of the year!

With DS I did give him some formula one feed a day from 4 months. I didn't have a lot of milk as was under a lot of stress and felt that just having a few hours to fill up again really helped. He slept through from 8 weeks by the way!

Melonian ? glad you have had a good night with the feed before bath. I guess it helps to stop your DD associating being fed with sleep time and then that makes it easier for her to get back to sleep alone. DD is getting so much better at settling to sleep in her cot now with her back being stroked. I think though that in the night I drift off and let her suckle too long and therefore she wakes up and wants to be back with me as that is where she fell asleep. Don?t know what the answer is really. Last night I fed her at 3.30m and then again at 6am. I find that if I feed her around 6/7am she eats so much more breakfast at 9 and then the day goes well food wise.

I have been trying to make sure DD has a sleep 10.30/11 for an hour and then 2/3 for an hour or more and was trying to avoid later sleep but after last night I am wondering if a little cat nap at 6/7ish is enough to get her through her bath and feed without being too tired and then she settles better for the night. I too try to synchronise DS & DD?s afternoon nap but it doesn?t always work out!

Glad to hear there are some positives out there! We've had an odd couple of nights with Skye - Goes to bed fine at 7ish and then wakes at 8ish and struggles to settle. Yesterday I needed to go in and she didn't resettle till nearly 9 o'clock. However, she then slept till 7am! Today she's just grumbling on and off, and I'm hoping she'll settle again as the Chinese is arriving soon and I can't wait till 9 to have it!

I have a feeling it may be teeth, but I keep saying that and she's still a hairless, toothless monster! Napwise, she's had some days where she's had a couple of hours in the morning and then nothing else, and some days where she's had two or three shorter naps. I just have to play it by ear - often the naps depend on what we have planned any particular day. She sleeps less in the pushchair than in the cot.

Here's hoping that we all have quiet nights!

Hey ladies

Well we seem to have put a stop to the 5am wake ups. I am SO relieved I can't tell you - I'm back to work on Monday and was so tired I couldn't see straight.

Anyhoo, I've been recording O's naptimes, bedtimes, night wakings and wakeup for the day times for the past few months. DH is a total excel geek so we did a bit of data analysis and worked out that:

• if he sleeps longer than 2 hours during the day he doesn't sleep well at night

• the total amount of hours he sleeps doesn't vary much (between 12 and 13 hours) so it makes sense that if he sleeps longer during the day he'll sleep for less time at night

• so in order to get him to sleep for longer at night and wake up later we needed to restrict his daytime naps and push back bedtime slightly

So for the past few days I've been pushing back his morning nap to 10am (he would usually have had it as early as 8.30/9.00am) and restricted it to half an hour. This has seen him through until about 1.30pm when I let him sleep for one and a half hours only. Then asleep for night at 7.30pm.

Since we've been doing this he's still woken once or twice to be settled (mainly, I think, because he's teething) but he hasn't woken up for the day earlier than 6.30am RESULT!

So I'm being much more regimented than I've ever been about napping and bedtimes. If he for some reason naps for less than two hours during the day then I'll knock the remainder off his bedtime and put him to bed slightly earlier.

And he's actually sleeping for longer overall now I'm doing this. Before I started restricting naptime/pushing back bedtime he was sleeping on average 12.5 hours in any 24 hour period. Now he's edging past 13 which is great.

So I still need to be on this thread, but feel like we're slowly moving back in the right direction.

Babies eh?! As soon as you think you've got them sussed they go and change everything...

Sending sleepydust to all x

Excellent news, Bicnod!

We had a spate of 5:30 wakeups so I bought blackout lining to velcro up to the window. The wakeups are now 7-7:30 which is interesting, as the lining's still in the bag! I keep meaning to do it, but I just don't find the time.

Skye's naps are still so variable! She's done 2.5 hours in one go recently, and then nothing else all day, she's done 2 or 3 shorter naps, and then today she did 1 nap of 40 minutes! I was expecting her to be vile, but she wasn't and has been lovely all day. Awkward monkey!

I ought to keep a record of her sleep - I'm a maths/computer geek so numbers interest me. I'm afraid I'm just rubbish at the moment though - can't find my get-up-and-go, even though she tends to sleep through more often than not at the moment (but please don't throw me off!)

Still playing one step forward and two back here, last night she slept 9-12 and then was up until 2 literally bouncing around my bed, full of energy. Utterly refused to go back in her cot but finally went back to sleep 2-4 in my bed, then more bouncing about until 6, then down until 9am. Temperature is very variable here at night and I think she objected to being in her bag last night.

Galena ? hope you had a good night last night. Teeth have a lot to answer for.

Bicnod ? yay to getting rid of the 5am wake! really interesting your data, I always think A is worse if she hasn?t had at least 3 hours sleep during the day, yesterday she had less but today she had more so we shall see tonight?.

Hello everyone. have been keeping an eye on you all but havent had time to post. unfortuneately, that's not becasue i have sleeping beauties . have been up 8 times each of the past 2 nights, with 4 being the usual. we seem to be going backwards and it is nearly killing me now i am back at work.
does anyone konw who i should go to for professional help? can my GP or HV do anything? will i have to pay someone? DD1's nightmares and calling out seem to be worse, and dd2 is waking and feeding again.

It occured to me yesterday that i havent had a full night's sleep now since April 2009. that's just ridiculous, isnt it? and no one in RL seems to understand just how debilitating a lack of sleep can be.

sorry for the woe is me

Oh Olivo! I can't imagine how bad it is if you're working and having broken sleep - I'm lucky in that I don't work, so if I'm tired we just have a quiet day at home. Not sure if GP or HV can help - but it's got to be worth a try! See GP and tell him/her you feel your health and mental wellbeing are being affected by the lack of sleep and that you need help - they should be able to at least suggest something!

I had an interesting night last night - Skye had her tea as normal and then milk and a snack while we had our tea. She had a short play and then her bath and story. I then decided to see what would happen if I didn't breastfeed her, but cuddled instead. She was asleep within minutes (about 7:20pm) - I put her down and she stayed asleep until 7:00am! Maybe the time is coming to stop the nighttime breastfeed. She obviously doesn't need it. If I'm brave at some point we'll see if DH can settle her.

MrsMacJnr, sorry to hear you also had a broken night. When Skye was awake for hours at a time at night, that's when we decided to try CC. She cried for up to half an hour over a few nights (with visits), but then slept, so I decided half an hour was better than 2-3 hours! I know it's not for everyone, but it worked for us.

Hi all, just to check in and say that I'm sorry to see that others are having a bad time, and congratulations to those who are having a better time. I'm being driven slowly mad by interrupted sleep... Ds has ended up in the bed most nights because it's the only place he'll settle, and so I spend the night being hit and kicked in the head. He sleeps quite well there though

Sorry to hear it's so difficult for you too Olivo. I know exactly what you mean about other people in RL not understanding. We've got some friends with a 7 month old who's just had one wake up a night since he was born, and the father said, "yeah, the sleepless nights haven't been too bad - we've coped quite well". I felt like screaming "that's because you haven't had any sleepless nights!!". People often seem to think you're talking about getting up once in the night when you say that they're a bad sleeper, which actually would be a dream come true for us. Anyway, little rant over. Wishing you all better nights...

well, part of me is glad we havent tried too hard with DD1's sleep as she now has chicken pox! i guess it's only a matter of time before DD2 gets it too it's sweeping the nursery.
last night i was up about 7 times, then dd was up for the day at 4.30, shouting how she was bored! i couldnt keep my eyes open at work!

Hi all

Olivo, you poor,poor thing. It's amazing what the human body can actually put up with isn't it? I bet if you told your pre-child self how little sleep you have, you wouldn't believe that you could survive. I am so sorry for you having to work as well and I know what you mean that no-one understands chronic sleep deprivation, and you feel that you're boring your friends when you moan about it constantly. All I can suggest is replace sleep with chocolate, it works for me but that is why I'm 2 stone heavier than 3y ago. Hope the pox is mild and itching short-lived.

Congrats Galena and well done Skye. I remember DS first slept through when I stopped his night feeds aged 1, but he had been going through till 5.00 anyway so it wasn't so bad.

Hooray Bicnod aswell, sounds like a military operation at your house . I think it works for us to be strict on naps as well but the morning one is quite tricky as I like to go to toddler group most mornings.

We had a good night last night, dream feed at 10.30, slept until 2.45, fed, then back to sleep until 6. Her nappy leaked in the night as well so she might have slept even longer had she not been wet. She has eaten for Britain today so hopefully another good night awaits?

Thanks Melonian and MrsMcJnr for the messages re: BF after my last post. Had a bit of an emotional week with it, but feeling a bit happier now to stick with it for the time being. We've tried to give post-dinner time formula both in a bottle and a cup but DS has turned his nose up at it. No clue what to do with a bottle and he did drink from the cup, but his face afterwards was a picture. It did make me feel quite good about him liking my milk . One of my biggest issues was biting (and he has bottom and top teeth - ouch!). Even though I take him off as recommended etc etc he bites when he's not actually bothered about feeding so stopping the feed didn't have that much effect (he just started playing quite happily!). Anyway, I have now stopped feeding him in the day unless he's definitely asking. He has many less feeds this way but seems to still be sticking to just 2 at night. We may still try to keep offering the formula though. I haven't tried Melonian's tip about feeding before bath, but I did try changing the routine slightly so he stays awake after BF and has a story as the last thing before going in the cot. He probably has a smaller feed this way but I figure the association is important to alter. Nothing dramatic has happened as yet though, he's still awake about 5 times overnight. Some of those wakings do require much less intervention though, adn we've had the odd 3 1/2 hour block out of him.
Very interested in Bicnod's data. Am a self-confessed geek who loves a bit of stats so may try this myself.
Olivo - god I can't imagine working and being up that many times. Do you have a child development centre that your GP can refer you to? It may work differently in your area but these can have professionals such as psychologists etc who deal with very young children. Sleep is likely to be a common reason for referral. I agree that GP is the first port of call though.
Ooosa - agree that no-one gets sleep deprivation. My (childless) brother is always talking about being tired. He burns the candle at both ends a bit so I just end up wanting to scream at him to GO TO BED THEN!!!

Carve - glad to hear things are settling with the bf. I'm in the strange situation (for me) that I've now stopped breastfeeding completely. Skye used to have a feed before bed, but now has cow's milk and supper before her bath and then a cuddle to sleep (Yes, I know - I should be putting her down awake, but I like my cuddle, and it tends to be 2 or 3 minutes and she's out like a light!). Very strange.

I wonder if maybe you should be kicking me off this thread, to be honest - I can't actually remember the last time Skye woke in the night (although that may have more to do with the rum I've drunk than anything else!) but she's fairly consistently sleeping through now.

On the other hand, maybe it's good to have someone who's been there and come out the other side? It took till her first birthday, but we're pretty much there now!

Galena (& Bicnod) please don't leave yet! You are giving me (and I bet the others) hope that one day sleep will return! And who says you shouldn't have your lovely cuddle? She can clearly sleep through without being put down awake. Mrs P says in the NCSS that some babies can sleep through even though they are BF/cuddled to sleep, but some can't. Thinking my DS may be one of the ones who can't! I hope that when I do eventually stop BF its as gentle as you describe with Skye.

To be honest, I think the dreaded dummy helps - and the fact that I waited until she had 1 6-7 minute feed per day!

I'm dreading taking away the dummy. Ho hum.

Last night she woke at about 8:30pm and needed the dummy replaced (usually she can replace her own dummy, but sometimes when sleepy she can't) and then she woke and whinged a couple of times but each time went back off after less than a minute of whingeing! Then she woke at 7.

Sadly I'm not going anywhere carve - we had a random 5am wake up this morning which I'm hoping isn't going to be the start of a spate of them.

O is very very clingy at the moment. I'm back to work on Monday and seriously dreading it. Really don't know how I'll cope if he's waking in the night AND doing 5am wake ups. Fingers crossed this morning was a one off

On the upside, I won a case of champagne - delivered to my door today - for entering one of the MN pre-election polls

Cool! Well done Bicnod! Enjoy the champagne. Hopefully O will remember how nice it is to sleep till later!

And I'm glad you aren't about to kick me off the thread. I've very much enjoyed the support I've received on this thread and look forward to being able to offer the same support to others.

Can I join?
DS is 9.5 months old. He was never a great sleeper, but we did go through a phase when he would conk out from 4am to 12pm. However, my body clock was fucked, so i started taking him to bed with me to try to normalise his body clock. It worked, but of course he didn't want to leave my nbed. I'm no longer B/F - DS is horsing through solids, and guzzling loads of juice at night, but won't touch milk.
We made great cot progress the month before I went back to work - he was being orientated in creche so I could catch up on sleep during the day. Then he started teething and picked up an ear infection.
It's hell. DH and I are taking it in turns to sleep with him as we're just walking zombies. He's not quite as bad with DH, but with me he kicks, squirms, wriggles so much that it's not rare for the clock to reach 3am and to realise that I've only had a few minutes doze at any one time. I never liked having him in bed with me but at least it was a way to get some sleep. Not it's just hell. We've no family support, and I'm feeling constantly weak and ill. I don't think it's hunger, too much sleep during the day, etc. He just doesn't seem to need sleep - its not uncommon for him to stay awake till 11pm during the week when he's been up since 7 with only 2 hour naps, so it's not even feasible to go to bed early to maximise sleep. ANy advice welcomed. I don't think controlled crying will work - he wakes up so often we'd just get no sleep at all.

Excellent news on the champagne and sticking around Bicnod but not so on the 5am wake ups. Will it be cruel to remind our babies of all this when they're 15 and can't get out of bed I wonder?

Welcome MILFintraining (love the name incidentally!) although sorry you are also so sleep deprived that you need to join. Lots of people on here have been using ideas from the No Cry Sleep Solution book. It has lots of different suggestions for different situations so I'd recommend having a look.

Galena - I agree this thread is great support. I wouldn't worry about the dummy for now if it is helping Syke sleep. I'm kicking myself that I never gave one to DS! A friend of mine weaned her DD off her dummy in the most lovely way. As a toddler, her DD was only allowed the dummy to help her sleep, and it was kept in a pocket of her bed rail so she could make her own choice about whether to use it. Then as her DD's 3rd birthday approached she started talking about how "big girls don't use dummies" and "look at the big children, they don't have dummies" etc etc and prepared her to say goodbye to the dummy on her 3rd birthday. On the day itself they tied the dummy to a balloon and let it go to say goodbye. Don't know if that sounds like the sort of approach you'd be into but I remembered it yesterday and thought you may be interested.

DS still doing his 5 wake ups and very hard to settle at night again, but I saw a new tooth breaking yesterday....honestly mother nature does most things brilliantly but teeth are rubbish - why can't they just all come at once?

Welcome MILFintraining. That sounds really rough. Perhaps something like gradual withdrawal would work with your DS? So to begin with he's in his cot and you're right by him cuddling and comforting as necessary, then, as the weeks go on you move further away from the cot but stay in the bedroom till he's asleep so he can still see you, then outside the door, etc. I'm sure someone else can explain it better than me!

I wonder if you've mentioned his milk-dislike to a health-care-pro as at 9.5 months they should still be getting the bulk of their calories from milk. Skye (my DD) isn't a great milk fan, but has 150ml with breakfast and tea, and perhaps some with lunch if I can persuade her. She also has porridge made with milk for breakfast and a fromage frais after tea. However, the HV has told me to add in a pot of custard at lunch time as it's 'another 3oz milk'. There are some concerns about her weightgain, however.

Carve, that's a lovely way to get rid of the dummy. Once she's more able to talk/understand, we'll have the 'dummy only in bed' rule but at the moment, despite being 1, as she was so prem she's really only a 9-month old developmentally. We'll either do the balloon byebye or the dummy fairy visiting when we get shot of them completely.

Skye was awake from 1:30 till 3:30 last night. She woke herself with coughing, then wouldn't settle. I cuddled her for a while and she was quiet with me, but wouldn't go back to sleep and as soon as I put her down she started screaming again. In the end, in desperation I re-calpoled her and sure enough, she was asleep within 15 minutes! Maybe it was teeth, maybe a sore throat. Not sure. Here's hoping for more sleep tonight!

Hi ladies

My son is only 12 weeks but I had to read and comment. I'm DYING here with a lack of sleep. He sleeps from 6:00pm to about 11:00pm and after that he wakes up every hour. I thought things would get better as he gets older but reading the comments here it doesn't seem like it. I hadn't started expressing yet but this morning got the kit out so DH can do some of the work tonight. I just don't think I can physically cope!

Hi all,

That sounds tough (and familiar) MILFintraining - no great advice from me but I will say that after 11 1/2 months in bed with me my ds suddenly was happy to be tranferred to a cot (in the same week that he started walking incidentally), and I never thought it would happen as he's just wake up and scream until he was snuggled up holding my arm until that point. I said to my dh that's he'd have to do it as I didn't believe it would work based on previous attempts, and then it did. He still wakes too much (hence being on here) but it is much better than those days. It will get better for you I'm sure.

On a whingey note, knowing that you're possibly the only people I can say this to and be understood, I am super irritated that one of my RL friends has cancelled seeing me and ds this afternoon because she is "so tired" after working last night. I know this sounds unsympathetic, but she has no children or dh to look after, and Carve's comment about wanting to say 'go to bed then!!' sprang to mind. I've been tired for 20 months, and can't sleep when I want because of two demanding boys (h and s) and a wriggler in my tummy making me turn over every five minutes in bed! I didn't say this of course, I said "yes, I thought you might be tired after working, no problem". Not that I'm not grateful for all the wonderful reasons I have for getting no sleep, but wish I could have a little empathy from a friend!

Sorry I had to get that out of my system. Hope you all get better nights. Ooh, quick question - those with 2dcs and a poor sleeper - do your dcs share a room? Is it possible? I'm thinking ahead a bit but after hopefully an initial six months in our room, we don't have another good room for a second dc. Does it cause big problems? Thanks IA!

transferred

Sorry too many typos to correct. Tired and ranting