Misguided Illusion Part II - Baby still not sleeping through by six months? Come and join us!

[MomOrMum]

Thought I would start a fresh thread as, sadly, we have almost filled the first one.

Feral, Kiwi, Chulita, et al...shouldn't we have graduated from this thread by now?!

Now welcoming a new crop of 6 months+ babies determined to help us reach new heights/depths of sleep deprivation.

Here is the original thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/sleep/713951-Support-thread-for-those-who-were-under-the-misguided-illusion

at oosabeauta's MIL. Plus - sidetrack alert - she's pretty out of date on the Chinese care system, as they try to do more foster care these days. They also follow up on children adopted by parents in other countries.

Ooh that is interesting IsItMe. Thank you - I now feel equipped with a response ready for next time she says it, rather than my face, which isn't very useful over the phone! Feel quite empowered by that

Glad to help ooosabeauta . I think there was a documentary 15 years ago called something hideous like the dying room about Chinese orphanages. But my understanding is they have changed practice a lot in China since then. Either way, safe to say, nobody would be holding up the chinese orphanages as examples of best childcare practice. I've never seen the documentary, and based on a quick google, really wouldn't want to. Silly MIL.

at Ooosa's MIL. After PIL comments about me being a bit of a soft touch (or 'neurotic' as they so kindly put it) I'm pretty certain they won't have O overnight until he's quite a bit older. If they'd made a comment like that I think I'd be wary of leaving him alone with them for more than 10 minutes! Talk about a foot in mouth moment...

BB - any news on whether you'll be away next week? Fingers crossed you still manage to have your holiday.

MrsMc - sorry you're having such a hard time what is happening with your LO at the moment? What do you do when you go to her in the night and how/where does she fall back to sleep once she's woken up? Happy to tell you waht we did but probably worth knowing if similar situation first.

Sending sleepy fairy dust to all our babies

Guess what?! Skye's got... A COLD! ARGH!!!!

Really snuffly and coughing loads. Expected last night to be hell on earth, but she went down at 7:15, woke at 8, woke at 8:30, woke at 10 and then woke at 7:30!!! Back in bed by 8:55 and still there now. She never sleeps more than 45 minutes at a time in the day!

Ho hum.

Sorry to hear the rest of you are having tough times too. One day they'll sleep through. One day!

Bicnod no news on flights yet. I think we will go away whatever, just maybe not longhaul.

Galena poor old girl, everything crossed it doesn't have an impact on sleep.

Well for some reason R has decided to sleep through for approx the past week. It came from nowhere, can't see any rhyme or reason as to why he can manage it at the moment! So I will absent myself from the thread for now, though who knows for how long.

sorry i havent caught up for a few days. alas, it is not because i have had sleepers! DD2 seems to be generally waking just once in teh night, for food, which is fab. she goes straight back to sleep. DD1. however, has excelled herself and was awake and calling out between 1 and 4.30; not impressive the day before i had to go back to work.
still, i went back and it was ok; i confess i cried a smidge in the car after leaving DD2, but she was fine. work is really hectic as so mnay people have not made it back from holidays so i'll have a busy week.
fingers crossed for a better night.
off ot catch up and here's hoping yuo have been getting better nights!

olivo congratulations on your first day back at work. Glad it seems to have gone okay. Maybe DD1 could sense change in the air, and will settle down again now [optimistic emoticon].

DS has been sleeping a lot better for the past couple of weeks. About every third night he has a longer wake of some sort, and the morning wakes can be pretty early. But sooooo much better than before.

I'm beginning to wonder whether we need a graduates thread...not quite ready to lose the support yet, but appreciate that it might not be that helpful for us to keep hanging around!

things are getting worse and worse here, I just can?t work it out. For the last 4/5 nights DD has slept fairly well from 9pm ? 12am and then has wanted to be fed and that is followed by hours of tossing and turning and none of us being able to get back to sleep. She is clearly agitated and I don?t know why. Today for the first time I wondered if she has some degree of lactose intolerance. She has some eczema on a birthmark at the back of her neck which tends to bug her at night and she does often seem windy in the night too. Any thoughts?

Ooosabeauta ? glad to hear that you have had some progress since your DS started walking. Very annoyed from you about the patronising from your friend I get unsolicited and frankly ridiculous advice from all and sundry and it gets very irritating. Your MIL sounds like my paediatrician. She told me to move the cot out of my room into DD?s, give her a toy and just let her cry. All night, even if she makes herself sick. She will then never look for me again in the night I could never do such a cruel and inhumane thing to my child.
.
autobahnbismark ? I too get ?advice? from my parents. The classics have been from my father mainly ?I used to turn the monitor off when you were a baby without your mother knowing? and, as my DH works for him ?it?s ok for you, you can nap during the day? what planet is he on; I have a toddler and a baby to care for! How are things?

Bicnod ? thanks for your kind words for me and for your offer of help. After I have fed DD, I put her down in her cot awake and stroke her back until her breathing deepens and then I leave. That?s around 8.30/9pm. She will then whimper every hour (after every sleep cycle) sometimes she will just go back to sleep on her own but others we have to go to her and pick her up and rock her a bit. She is standing up when you go in and is furious if you put her back down straight away. Before we go to bed (@11.30), DH goes to her when she wakes, after we go to bed (she sleeps in our room) I tend to her. She always takes longer to settle with me. She doesn?t always want milk, or to be cuddled but often does want to sleep in our bed. If we get past 3am and I can?t get her into her cot I will give in and bring her in with us. That doesn?t mean peace, she will often thrash about and whine until 5am when she seems to magically fall asleep. Then DS wakes us up about 7.30. IF he didn?t I am sure DD would sleep on until 9ish.

Galena ? sorry to hear about your DD?s cold but great news on the big sleep, I am sure you feel like a new woman! Hope it repeats for you.

Congrats on the sleeping success bellamysbride

Olivo ? poor you having two bad sleepers to deal with and work outside the home. My DS is playing up a bit at night too. He is 2.2yrs. He often won?t go to sleep until an hour after we have put him down and often wants more milk. He still has a bottle and a dummy but these are things I can live with for now until DD?s dire sleeping improves.

Can I join you all please? I have been lurking for a few months with the hope that DS (now 8 months) would do something miraculous but no such luck. Am heartily sick of hearing other mums talk about their babies sleeping through. DS is BF and (mostly) BLW. When he was about 3 months old he went through a 2-3 weeks phase of sleeping until around 2ish for a feed and then going until the early hours (he was still in carry cot in our room then - now in cot in own room apart from when he gets impossible to put down and I bring him to bed). It was marvellous, but then he got to 4 months, reverted to a newborn and its been pretty hellish ever since

Things have definitely been worse around teething (which is when he will refuse cot and I bring him to bed). The top two just came through and it isn't so bad now, but still exhausting. I can't even tell you how many times DH and I get up, its often too many to count, but the maximum DS will sleep for seems to be 3 hours and he often doesn't even manage that. We tried DH going in as he got up to 3 feeds a night. It ended up that DS was only offered one BF a night (ended up around 1-2ish) but he woke about every hour until he was fed. The other night when I was on my own for a couple of nights (DH working nights) I ended up feeding at 10am and he did then sleep for 3 hours which he hasn't done in ages. Last night he was fed twice, and again, only slept a decent stretch (by which I mean 2 1/2 hours) after the feeds. I bought the NCSS a couple of weeks ago after stalking Bicnod's posts and we are using some of the ideas, particularly the gradual withdrawal that she described, along with the gentle removal thing when BFing. Sometimes DS will accept being comforted in his cot, but usually we pick up and rock and if its me, I will often end up BFing (try not to but following NCSS, will not do so if hes very upset and looking for boob). We don't want to do CC and I know I need patience for NCSS stuff to start working, its just really hard when you're so knackered as I laspe into beating myself up too much, and having some reassurance/moral support would be nice. Should add here that DH wonderful and enduring muchos sleep deprivation and still going to work, but would be nice to hear from other mums in similar situation as all the ones I know seem to have babies who sleep/are lying. I can't imagine going back to work in 4 months with current levels of sleep deprivation - I will be worse than useless!

I spoke too soon

Hello, do you have room for another one?

I have a 6 month old DD who has never slept through and only done 4 hours a handful of times. I have DS as well who has just turned 2. His sleep is fine but he's wearing me out in the daytime.

I'm getting so worn down by it all I just don't know what to do. DD has every sleep problem in the book...can't self settle, wakes every 2-3h, needs feeding/rocking to sleep, can't nap, oh and early morning waking too.

I have the NCSS but just can't get a plan together. Have tried getting her in a routine but have to keep feeding her to get her to nap for any decent time, and that has got her totally reliant on the breast. Have tried stopping feeding her to sleep this week, but she just cannot self settle so have to rock to sleep instead which is killing my back.

My last hope was that weaning might help and we started 2 weeks ago, but she's gone from 3 hrly wakings to 2 hrly . Good to find this thread and know we're not alone. Will be v.grateful for your support and any pearls of wisdom you might have

Also apologies in advance for being a grumpy old witch - I'm not dealing with it all very well at the moment.

Welcome newbies!

I'm sorry so many of you need to join us (and BB I'm sorry to see you rejoin us quite so quickly), although it's nice to 'meet' you!

If you wish, you can take some heart from an oldie who hasn't quite graduated yet but is getting there.

Skye was born very premature (27wks + 4days) last April and was in SCBU for 9 weeks. When she came home she wouldn't be put down without screaming during the day - I had to hold her all day and she would only go to sleep at night if we were there. Eventually we decided to nip this in the bud and began to put her down and walk out of the room after a bedtime routine (bath, book, boob, bed). She was able to self settle at night, but wouldn't nap and would wake 3 or 4 times a night.

We muddled on, with her not napping and waking often overnight to be fed to sleep and gradually she reduced the number of wakings. She didn't improve on weaning, she didn't improve on rolling, she still doesn't crawl or walk! (Oh, and she has a dummy)

However, when she moved into her own cot in her own room she started napping in her cot (only for 45 minutes max, but still, she was there!) and now she either naps in her cot or in her pushchair or the car. On Good Friday, we were away at my parents' and she slet through!! We'd done nothing differently, she just slept through. The next night, she didn't! But since then we've had a good few nights where she's slept through. Not only that, for the past week she hasn't been fed overnight - if she wakes (usually only once if she does) I just pop her dummy in and walk away and she goes back off.

I still feed her to sleep in the evening, but my feeling at the moment is that a 10 minute feed for a peaceful night is a minor inconvenience and I don't want to break bedtime! So, I didn't have a plan, we have used CC after a particularly bad illness which landed us back in hospital, and she began waking for 2-3 hours at a time, but apart from that I've kinda let her take the lead.

I'm not saying it works for everyone, but it's worked for us (so far) and, with her birthday on Friday, I'm feeling positive about the year ahead!

(Sorry for the mammoth post, but I felt that for some of you it may help to hear my story)

Hi All,

Just wondered if anyone could give me any advice or is having similar problems. My DS 9m is a terrible sleeper but is currently unable to settle himself to sleep. i was up for hours last night with him sort of crawling all over the bed half asleep trying to get himself to sleep. He would find a spot sleep for 5 mins then start twisting and turning like he was trying to get comfortable. he ends up sleeping in the most uncomfortable positions for all of us. He is bf/in a bed side cot/blw very happy and very alert. I feed him to sleep and for the last month he has been feeding on and off all night. ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I did send some messages on here just over a month ago but ds was ill for a month with flu/colds and it was a nightmare. hes been better for about 2 weeks now but sleeping even worse its like we are going backwards.

oh and he is so active that i cant just leave him he sits up and crawls around. and also i dont want to do controlled crying.

any ideas????

Hey ladies too exhasuted to say anything of substance tonight, just that I hear you and know where you are coming from (especially the part about having a 2 yr old to deal with too) My DD seems to have developed hayfever now, streaming eyes and nose poor little thing. In the wee small hours last night I suddenly wondered if all the night waking is due to a mild lactose intolerance? anyone any thoughts on that? Hoping everyone has as good a night as our little ones can provide [smi;e]

Hey ladies too exhasuted to say anything of substance tonight, just that I hear you and know where you are coming from (especially the part about having a 2 yr old to deal with too) My DD seems to have developed hayfever now, streaming eyes and nose poor little thing. In the wee small hours last night I suddenly wondered if all the night waking is due to a mild lactose intolerance? anyone any thoughts on that? Hoping everyone has as good a night as our little ones can provide

Thanks for the welcome and for sharing your story Galena. SCBU must have been really tough (know a little about how stressful it can be through DH's work) and it sounds like you did a wonderful job of helping her to feel comfortable and safe once she was home. DS (not prem) also struggled with being put down and I have since beaten myself up a bit about how much he was held, but actually this was what he needed and I have come to the conclusion that many many other parents do this, but because they have babies with more straightforward sleep temperaments, they don't end up with the same level of sleep issues, and needing to intervene again when they're older. Great to hear that she can now sleep through sometimes, good for you.
Melonian nice to meet you and can we be grumpy old witches together? Being grumpy used to be DH's job in our relationship but we seem to have switched roles - he now appears to have endless enthusiasm and optimism whereas I regularly don pointy hat and broomstick.... Re: NCSS - if you can only read one part, then it might be worth looking at the gentle removal plan for BF. I've been doing this after I realised that I'd been letting DS suck away for 20 minutes before bed after he was done with the feeding part. I've been doing it for about a week and he will now remove himself before he's totally out and therefore doesn't fall asleep at night on boob (have done the same for night feeds so he goes back in cot just about awake for shussh/pat). Might be worth a go for your DD? Oh and muchos respect for anyone dealing with this level sleep deprivation and more than one child (haven't caught up with whole thread but I notice Olivo also in this position). DH and I would like DS to have a sibling one day, but his current sleep patterns are proving quite the contraceptive....
wal07 no words of wisdom sorry, but DS also very wriggly and I caught him practising his commando crawling in the cot when he learnt to do it the other week. He is most comfortable on his side to sleep now, although doesn't stay that way for long and we often go in to find him crying on his back. Have to resist telling him that he can roll over. He seems to forget at night. I did think that the day he learnt to roll over and not have to sleep on his back things would improve but no such luck.
MsMcJnr I have hayfever now and the runny nose is not fun with the getting up. Not sure about lactose intolerance, but I'm guessing you'd have symptoms in the day as well if thats what it was???

Thanks everyone for the support

Hi newbies

MrsMc - the situation we were in with Oscar was that he wouldn't go down into his cot unless he was asleep (having been rocked/sung to or fed to sleep). Then when he woke up he needed us to do that to get him back to sleep. The big thing I got from NCSS is consistency and patience - nothing will happen quickly but if you decide on a plan and stick to it things should improve over time. so if you don't want little one to come into bed with you you will need to consistently put her back in her own bed. We did pick up put down with O to get him to go down into his cot awake (put him down sleepy but not asleep, as soon as he cries pick him up and comfort him, as soon as he is calm put him down again - took 60 times sometimes but got easier slowly). NCSS isn't a fast solution but it has worked for us.

Having said that I am knackered today as O was up quite a bit last night. I think (hope!) it was teething and also he is pretty unsettled generally as we have just started settling him in with the CM as I'm back to work in less than 3 weeks

Really hope this settling process won't scupper all our sleep training

at 60 times Bicnod. Thanks for sharing - we certainly haven't been that patient or determined yet so you have given me a big dose of encouragement (will try to remember this when blurry eyed and wobbly in the middle of the night).

Golly, welcome to all the new arrivals - it's sad that this is such a busy thread.

wal07 I wish I had some words of wisdom for you, but DS has been in his own room since he was about 3mo.

Just want to say - v quick post as at work - that it really got easier and easier for us with age.

I stalked the sleep forums on Mumsnet from 3 months til 12 months but my DS now sleeps pretty well (if not very long nights and early starts - but I live with that as it's such an improvement.)

Felt very down about it - like I think many of the posters here do and are feeling.

It just got better with me following some gentle Elizabeth Pantley techniques and a bit of no nonsense growing up from the boy!

Yesterday he pointed to his bedroom and basically told my Mum to put him in his bed when he got tired about 11am. This is a child who always goes for his nap in a pushchair! So I really think you need to believe in the power of ageing! It has done it for us and I did all the "wrong things".

HTH

Oh and he is just 14 months...

and I used to be on here a lot.

It does get better - I couldn't face the tough tactics - nor could my sister who had a horror of a waker and she too now sleeps and never had to do terrible crying things.

SOme how we muddled through.

It may change of course!

Thanks for thw welcome and encouragement everybody. Galena I don't know how you have coped with what has been thrown at you, your DD sounds like a real little trooper. Makes me feel so guilty for being whingy about the sleep when others have so much more to deal with.

Thanks carve I am going to reread the NCSS now. I couldn't do the pull-off thing before because DD only ever had a proper feed while snoozing as so distractible, but now she is eating quite well I will try it. The NCSS irritates me quite a lot though, I thought Ellizabeth Pantley was going to be a posh calm lady a bit like Mary Poppins, not an all-American hockey mom. Also I don't know how to pronounce Coleton and find it really distracting!

Rubbish night last night, went down ok at 7 then up at 7.45, 8.30-9.30, 11.00, 2.00, 4.30 and up for the day at 6.00. Yawn. But today she self-settled for her morning nap for the first time in weeks, so maybe we're on the up?

Sleepy vibes everyone

melonian Thank you for sharing my views on Elizabeth Pantley and the NCSS - I thought I was alone in being completely at a loss as to how to pronouce Coleton (which seems to be used a LOT). I suspect I was too tired and exhausted by the time I got to reading it though.

My advice to the newbies would be to really give the NCSS a try now if you're set against controlled crying. We crossed our fingers and hoped DS would sort himself out and by 8.5mo we were broken and could only cope with controlled crying (which isn't just abandoning them to cry btw, but is not something I would recommend if you have the resources to try something more gentle which takes a little longer to get results).

Lots of interesting chat on this thread and I am feeling you pain. As my little one is 10mths and still not sleeping well. Would someone be kind enough to explain all the abbreviations on here please. I have worked out that a dh is a husband but is a ds a daughter or son? also what BLW?
Many thanks in advance.