Misguided Illusion Part II - Baby still not sleeping through by six months? Come and join us!

[MomOrMum]

Thought I would start a fresh thread as, sadly, we have almost filled the first one.

Feral, Kiwi, Chulita, et al...shouldn't we have graduated from this thread by now?!

Now welcoming a new crop of 6 months+ babies determined to help us reach new heights/depths of sleep deprivation.

Here is the original thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/sleep/713951-Support-thread-for-those-who-were-under-the-misguided-illusion

Morning! Hope everybody had a good weekend.

We have been a bit wrong-footed in our sleep plans by DS having FOUR of his top front teeth coming through at once. It explained a lot when we realised that - I had been thinking that the controlled crying had all been for nothing.

But he does still know how to fall asleep by himself, so it's all basically fine, just a bit tough while it lasts.

I've decided that I can be relaxed about giving him comfort feeds when he's teething, without worrying that I'm setting up too much of a habit that we'll have trouble stopping later. I may come to regret this, obviously!

I have abandoned my attempt to use CC for daytime naps. The problem I found was pinpointing when DS was actually ready for a nap as he has almost non-existent sleepy signs at the mo and the gaps between naps can be very variable. So he gets rocked and cuddled to sleep for naps now. He's only napping for 30mins at a time which I guess is either because he's getting more sleep at night, or because his teeth won't let him nap longer. He's also beginning to stand without holding onto anything (well, a block, but nothing attached to the ground iyswim), so I suspect that is causing him some excitement.

How's everybody else doing?

DD's generally gone down ok, woken once or twice, at each waking feeding quickly and going straight back down without a murmur.

Recently, however, she's become a NIGHTMARE!! She goes down fine around 7 and sleeps well till 11 ish. She wakes, feeds and won't go back down. She screams, pulls her dummy out (dummy usually keeps her quiet so she falls asleep), screams some more, scratches at her face, etc. Last night it took me till 12:15 to get her back to sleep then she woke again at 2:15 and repeated all the above.

She does have a cold at the moment, but she does the same when put down for a nap, even before her cold. She seems really frustrated that she keeps pulling her dummy out, but nothing seems to help. I have tried swaddling (she screams, strains against the swaddling and spits her dummy out), I've tried putting her down once she's fast asleep (she wakes up and carries on), I've tried ignoring her (she just keeps screaming).

HELP!!! I can't last much longer on this little sleep and mine and hubby's relationship is suffering cos I'm so tired.

Hi all,

Isitme, glad about the teeth being a reason for you. Well done for teaching him to self settle - think you and I are now in the same boat. Settling alone at bedtime, 2 night feeds and rocking for naps - I found Exactly the same thing re naps and decided it was a battle too far. I now want to stop the night feeds but DS has come down very ill with a nasty chest infection and is utterly miserable (am I repeating myself?) - has had a temperature at night for a week - 39 degrees and calpol not shifting it. The docs say that is okay in a baby over 6 months. He is so snotty and coughing and crying with pain. Oh it is so sad. I am feeding to comfort and to rehydrate. I had got down to one bfeed but he now refuses anything but the breast - even water.

I had planned to stop night feeds this week in the hope of having a sleeping baby before our christmas travels and before work in jan but I have to postpone that. Will prob do it after christmas now.

Galena, that sounds really tough. WOnder why she won't settle later in the night. Do you think she has had enough milk? DS did that when he was 3 months and the dummy was starting to cause sleep problems (I did not address it for another 2 and a half months!)Poor you.

I hate the winter now. I can't believe how ill DS has been since October. Ill more than well.

Take care all

Dycey, I had a think about what you said, particularly 'the dummy was starting to cause sleep problems'. Last night DH and I decided the dummy was causing more problems than it was solving. We/DD have gone cold turkey with it, and last night she didn't have it at all. I cuddled, jiggled, patted and shushed her to sleep each time she woke (and fed at 11 and 2). She took an hour to go down at the start of the night, but then was only awake for about 1.5 hours overnight, compared with 2.5 hours the previous night WITH a dummy! She's also just gone down for her first nap after about 5 minutes of cuddling, as opposed to about 20.

Maybe this was the way to go! Hopefully I can get her to learn that sleep doesn't require a dummy, and then I can start addressing the 'falling asleep on mummy' bit. One step at a time, eh?

Galena that sounds really promising. Hope it keeps getting better for you and DD.

dycey reassuring that we seem to have found the same thing working for us, even though we both wish we were getting more sleep about now!

That is really interesting Galena, I think dummies should come with health warnings! I seriously think it has caused us a lot of trouble - I don't know why but DS did that same thing, not settling, wanting to suck all night - he just got used to it. Very glad if getting rid of it has helped. How old is your DC?

Isitme, things can only get better! DS knows how to go to sleep alone - even when ill - I put him down last night and he crwled about and chatted and went to sleep. But woke every 2 hours sceaming for the breast. Poor chap is very ill so I don't resent it but I do look forward to stopping the night feeds an getting some sleep. Hope your night was better? What are they like at the mo? I am afraid that he is such a creature of comfort - the dummy, rocking arms, the breast - he will wake and want any of the above, probably even a pat. O well - too tired to think any longer. What will I think about when he does eventually sleep?

How are the other babies doing?

Galena, just to encourage you - I cold turkied the dummy at 5.5 months and he learnt very quickly INDEED. One nap was all it took. I then used to pick him up and rock instead - which I had to stop at 7 months because he was still waking for that. But now (when he is well which is practially never) he only tends to wake for 4 hourly or 6 hourly feeds.

Definitely one thing at a time. Dummy then mummy when you are both ready. I think it is hard for them to let go though so I took it really really slowly and provided a lot of cuddles (could have mad my own life easier if I had been tougher a long time ago...)

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress!

dycey offering lots of cuddles and breastfeeds at the mo.

Last night he woke at 9.30, which he hasn't done since we did the CC. Fortunately a couple of cuddles and he went back to sleep until almost midnight. Then calpol and a feed and he went back to sleep until just before 4am. Unfortunately calprofen and feed didn't quite cut it, so he was restless, crying for another hour, cuddles not cutting it either. But eventually, with another feed, he went back to sleep just before 6am .

Hoped we might get a lie-in, but he was up for the day just after 7am. Very kind (but grumpy) DH let me stay in bed for another hour, which was wonderful.

When he's well, DS has been just waking once in the night for a feed, so fingers crossed we'll get back to that when these pesky teeth are sorted.

It's very tempting to hibernate and not let them see anybody so they can't pick up bugs. Or is that just me...?

That sounds very like my normal nights Isitme, Ds usually goes to midnight or 1.30 or 2am for the first feed, then wakes at five for another, then gets up around six... I can live with that but would prefer not to.

Current illness means four hours asleep then two hourly waking. Hope he gets well soon and I absolutely am hibernating! Unfortunately went on a train and that was where this current bug was caught - I think.

Hope the teeth pop out soon.

DS is 10 months today.

Well, I caved in slightly earlier - we went to a baby group and took a friend. DD screamed all the way there in the car. While we were there she was a bit unsettled at times, but I managed to distract her with a biscuit and also managed to a) get her to sleep and b) put her in her carseat and she stayed asleep for 20 mins or so (unheard of). However, when put in carseat to come home she began screaming again, and I couldn't face another journey like that so the dummy went in. She was quiet for a few minutes, then spat it out and screamed for a few minutes, then awake and quiet for about 20 minutes before dozing off.

However, sticking to my guns as much as I can, and so no dummy this evening. DD had bath, fed and went straight down. No whinging. No extra rocking required (as in, put down, scream, pick up and rock). Woohoo! I have no doubt things won't stay this good, but I'm pleased they're this good so far tonight.

Oh, and DD is nearly 8 months, except she was very premature, so is about 5 months corrected age. Very confusing.

dycey - one of DS's little friends who visited today had a runny nose. Would it be OTT to sterilise all the toys she touched ?

Well done Galena - I can remember similar wobbles when we were weaning ourselves DS off the swaddle. You'll get there.

Woo (and if I may add) hoo! DD woke up at 10pm and 3am, fed and went straight back down. Then this morning we didn't get up till nearly 7am as opposed to the 6am we're used to. And at 7, she wasn't screaming as is her usual morning greeting, she was just babbling in her cot. I'm glad we got rid of dummies.

However, one day I do want her to start dropping nighttime feeds. (One step at a time though, I guess.)

Oh wow Galena that is fantastic!

DS woke up three times again last night, which would be okay, but he still struggled to get back to sleep after waking at 4.50am. He sucked away for an hour and was still seemingly wide awake. I tried putting him down in his cot, and he was chatting away happily. After a while longer, DH decided to try rocking him to sleep, and thankfully that worked, and he slept until 8am. DH is off today and let me have a bit of a lie-in too. So I really can't complain.

But I do hope that those pesky teeth finish coming through soon.

I think, sadly, I need to join you .

DD was a pretty good sleeper for her first three/four months. At three months she was waking up once for a 4am (ish) feed. It has all gone downhill from there. I posted another thread about it.

She has now had a cold and, although she's now better, she's waking every hour on the hour. This has been going on for 5 nights since she got better. Dreamfeed at 11. Wake at 12, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5... Usually somewhere in there there is a period of at least an hour where she won't settle back down. Last night was 3am until 4:30. I hadn't even managed to get back to sleep after the 2am waking at that point!

At 4:30 we brought her into bed and she did sleep for another 2 hours. But I don't want to routinely co-sleep. DD is 8 months old and my DH and I want some time to ourselves. Plus DD often treats coming in with us as playtime (and we only have a double bed, which is snug as she's a real fidget. I end up clinging to the edge of the bed with my bum cheeks!).

I am at my wits end. We are going away for Chrismas and can't have this at my parents' house so we might need to try the quick fix of controlled crying.

DH thinks it might be teething. He thinks everything is teething. I am not so sure because you could set your clock by the wake up times. Surely if it was pain it would be more random? Also, there are no teething signs or evidence of discomfort in the day.

IsItMe sorry to hear you're still struggling, but 4 teeth at once is a lot for anyone, let alone a little one! Hopefully he'll settle soon, but at least (and I know it's not much comfort) babbling is less stressful to listen to than full-on screaming!

Confused welcome to our mad world. I had a similar experience with DD - she was waking once for a feed a few months ago and since having a couple of colds and being away, etc this had gone rather pearshaped. However, our 'WOW' moment came this week when we got rid of DD's dummy. 2 nights later and she woke at 10 (which I don't count as I'm still awake then) and then once overnight. Does your DD have a dummy? Might this be causing issues? Do you feed her every time you wake? If so might she be forgetting how to get back to sleep on her own after a sleep cycle? (How about giving her some Calpol before bed to see if that settles her? Maybe it IS pain - either from teeth or from the remnants of her cold - the waking would be regular because as she moves into her light sleep phase of her sleep cycle she would become aware of the pain and it would stop her settling)

Anyway, mammoth post finished now!

Hello Confused. Sorry you have to join us.

I was with your DH on thinking there was a reason for every wake. So the first thing to do is presumably to try and rule that out, as Galena suggests.

From where I am now (post CC ), I would say it is probably quite likely that your DD is also unable to fall asleep by herself. So if she still wakes hourly even with the pain relief, I'd suspect that.

A way to test that worked for us is to think about what you have to do each time she wakes. If she settles again quickly when you reintroduce whatever was in place when she went to sleep at bedtime (e.g. BF, dummy, rocking, shushing, etc), then it is almost certainly the case that she isn't able to fall asleep by herself when she rouses slightly at the end of each sleep cycle. This is what CC can help with.

BTW, don't think that if this test doesn't work for every wake then it isn't the problem, as your DD may be waking from hunger and/or pain as well. But if it applies to some of the wakes, I would reluctantly say that CC is likely to help when you're confident that DD is neither ill nor hungry. But only you and DH can decide whether you are willing to give it a go or not.

CC can't help with wakes related to teething, colds, etc, as DS is demonstrating now (yawn).

Hello Confused, so sorry about the hourly wakes - been there and now am on 2 hourly so know exactly how you feel. It can be pain though - my DS will wake hourly with ear infections, that is when they come into a light sleep. At the moment he has a chest infection and after 4 hours of good sleep he then wakes 2 hourly. It is very hard to know when they are better and it is remaining a habit (this happened to me once before) or if they are still ill / teething and it will sort itself out (this happens the rest of the time).

We too are going away next week..... am worried about inlaws and their criticism.... still bfeeding all night at 10 months. But I have a VERY affectionate little boy to show for it!

Isitme, sterilise away!

Galena, you are doing so well. Can't believe it! Am delighted there is good news out there. I feel encouraged by you.

I am feeling like I am breaking all records for broken nights with an older baby at the moment - but know of course I am not. It is just other mums have either decided to do somthing about it by now - or have resigned and stopped moaning.... Where does that leave me|?

One last thing Confused, you don't have to do CC (altho I know Isitme did with success).

At 7 months DS was still waking up all the time after his last chest infection so I chose to sit next to him (not pick up) until he stopped crying and went back to sleep. Since he wasn't hungry (I fed at 4 hourly intervals), it only took 15 mins max and a few nights...... WIth a younger baby Gradual Withdrawal can work well - I sat next to him hand on him, then no hand. I do think the method you use depends on the baby but if yours responds well to co-sleeping then he/she wants your presence so sitting with baby might help?

Oh yes dycey and Confused - I never meant to imply that you must of should do CC. Just wanted to help you understand if it might work if you did decide to go down that route.

There are other things to try as dycey says - pick up put down, gradual withdrawal both work for some. There's quite a useful summary of the different techniques in a book we have - I think it's the Millpond Clinic one.

How are you settling your DD currently?

Hi Guys,

Sorry I didn't get back to you earlier. I wrote a long post and then my computer crashed and I lost it!

The weird thing is that DD can go to sleep by herself at the start of the evening. For months she was doing this well - she'd go down drowsy, I'd kiss her and leave the room and she'd go off by herself. She went through a phase recently where she needed a bit of sshing and patting, but is now putting herself to sleep at the end of the day fine again. Everything I read suggests that sleep associations might be the problem, but the first sleep of the night is 'right' if you see what I mean.

In terms of getting her back off, the first couple of wakes are normally easy - bit of sshing and patting and she goes off. It gets steadily harder as the night goes on. By 3/4 I will feed her, sometimes she then goes back off and sometimes she doesn't. We give her a dummy from time to time, but not every time she wakes. We normally try to use it just to calm her down and then take it off her before she goes to sleep.

I have tried sitting with her whilst she cries so that she's not alone but is trying to get herself back off. I gave up after 1 1/2 hours! Perhaps I just need to really strengthen my resolve and, if the first time is 2 or 3 hours then just accept that. The problem is that, after two hours of crying, she actually is hungry.

Sigh. I might read that section in NCSS about if you're really desparate. I think that that has some modified CCing (ironically).

Hi Confused, that is interesting. Same with my DS in fact, goes to sleep fine at the start of the night but wakes screaming for comfort at some point.... and as the night progresses they get steadily less tired. 4am and 5am is always tough to get them back to sleep I find. Well, I always take the easy route and feed as he goes back to sleep but I haven't got any answers about sleep!

It seems to me that there are always lots of things happening - babies like company and comfort and once they have slept a bit and are no longer exhausted. A wise woman said to me that other day "the night is long for babies".

Sorry to be no help.

Isitme can I ask you a question as you seem well informed and I am so foggy minded I can no longer work things out! Is there a reason you used CC not the other methods? And does it work better than the other more present ways? I know you were doing it to teach your DC to self settle not to drop feeds.

Am planning my move for when I stop night feeds - wondering whether to do CC or stay with him or what... Do you think CC is easier on the baby than constantly being presented with a mother who is refusing to feed? And are there time gaps that are optimal? Sorry to pick your brains but I can't think straight any more.

Oh dear dycey I know exactly what you mean, and I'm not that well informed I'm afraid.

We used CC because we had Picked Up and Put Down for months with no effect - he just cried until he fell asleep in our arms. And Gradual retreat just didn't seem to make sense to the way we settled him. In reality, I suspect we were just so exhausted that DH and I needed something straightforward to try. I felt like I didn't know what way was up any more.

Ferber doesn't recommend CC for dropping nightfeeds by the way. He suggests stretching the gaps between them, which is what DH and I tried before the CC. It did help us get from 3 to 2 feeds, but it takes quite a while, as you shift the feeds by half an hour per night. Basically you have your target time which you won't feed before, and then you do anything BUT feed to comfort your DC if they wake before that time.

There's only really two techniques that DH and I came across in our reading for dropping nightfeeds - the one above, or the other was where you gradually reduce the amount of milk given at each feed until they're down to little/none. Then shush/pat them back to sleep (I think).

Both these techniques are recognising that the child has learned to be hungry at these night wakings, so you are easing them off, rather than going cold turkey. I guess once you had got to the point that they weren't getting fed in the night but were still waking, you could try any of the sleeping strategies (gradual retreat?).

Does that help at all?!?

Isn't another way of dropping feeds to offer water instead of milk? Not that I've tried it, I think I've read it though.

Galena yes - I've read about that, but other than on MNet, in books I've only seen it when you get to very small amounts of milk at each feed. Otherwise they're still going to be hungry surely?