at the very end of my tether - please tell me controlled crying might help for 7-month-old

[bean612]

DD has been screaming for the last 45 mins. She went to sleep at 7.45, woke up at 8.30 but we managed to shush her back to sleep. This time though she is furious. At the moment she's like this every night - 3 wakings with varying degrees of screaming before we go to bed, then up 2 or 3 (or 4) times in the night, sometimes just grizzling, sometimes screaming. We don't feed her, just give her water, but it's not food she wants. She CAN get herself to sleep as we used to put her down for the night awake and she'd get herself to sleep within 5-15 mins without much problem. But now... I vacillate between sobbing myself and feeling furious and having to leave the room to calm down. I can't take it much longer. Seems to me like CC is the only option left.

I really feel for you - you must be so tired by now. I think, if you can afford it, maybe getting someone in to help mihgt be the solution. Listening to them cry is awful ( I had two DDs both of whom have really heartrending cries which tear me up, even when it is only about something like the toy elephant's hat falling off!). The thing I realised once my elder daughter got older is that they are not always crying for the reason we think they are crying, if you see what I mean? She might be crying with frustration that she is awake again and wants to get to sleep? I know my second daughter gets very, very cranky when she wants to sleep and can really scream but then just goes out like a light when put in the cot so is clearly just tired. So, I think getting someone else in to break the pattern might help? ANd would save you from they pain of listening to the crying? SOmeone on my postnatal thread had one who cracked a really bad sleeping problem in 3 days? Also, this time, we have used a dummy loads and it has been miraculous. I thought my elder daughter wouldn't take one but in retrospect I don't think i persevered enough (having some idea that they were a Bad Thing etc). This time it has been essential and really helps (9although when the problem is something other than wanting the soother she can cry with it in her mouth!). She also definitely wakes up and puts in back in during the night sometimes herself and is 71/2 months so I don't think it becomes a rod in the same way as when they are younger.

Hi Bean
Did you try the No Cry Sleep Solution? I got it the other day, read it in 2 hours! It looks good if you're after an alternative to CC but I think it'll take weeks rather than days to see a difference.
Re. co-sleeping- we did it, and loved it when DS was little- now he's bigger it's a pain in the arse! I don't enjoy being nobbled on for hours and getting no sleep so we now avoid it if possible, and I don't feel bad about that at all. I don't get the whole pro-this anti-that thing, it's whatever works for you.
And re. Osteopathy, we go to the centre in Manchester and it's helped with all sorts including being puky and teething. I've stupidly never thought to ask them about his sleep, suppose I always thought it was tied up with his teething problems. Anyway, they're really nice there. Good luck with that, let us know how you get on.

Hi Bean, sympathies. It sounds like hell.
Big Ferber fan here, I can't tell if you've read his book or not, he makes sense, gives you a plan, and confidence. No one can tell you if it'll work or not for you -- sorry. Wish I could.
But ime if you're going to do cc you do have to commmit to it, don't give up on night 2 or 3, stick with it. And in a way doing something will probably be slightly easier than what you're going through atm; ie, it's not fun, but you're braced for that, rather than living in hope that you might luck out and get a good night for a change...

Heck this is so tough-I did reluctantly do CC and it worked fr us with all 3 of ours but yes of course it was heart breaking. I just wondered if we are following the rule that once out of sight you no longer exist to baby how that square out for those parents that have to put small babys into nursery while they work? I appreciate that there is some comfort there but as Im sure lots of mums will agree, to your baby only mum will do and having another person there to cuddle them (even dad in some cases) is about as much comfort as an iron blanket.

Thank you. I have read the NCSS but we've tried all the gentle stuff already and it's just not making any difference. I've read some Ferber, but not properly cover to cover which I know I need to do before we embark on any sleep training. You're right, I think - although it would be hell, at least it would feel as though we were doing something that actually might make a difference to the future, rather than facing an endless stretch of hideous nights, albeit with a few good ones thrown in.

It sounds to me bean, that you need to do SOMETHING - because you can't continue the way you are.

We too tried NCSS first, and we did make some progress - albeit slowly. We got to the point where he would sleep in his cot day and night, but we still had to cuddle him till fast asleep before we could put him down. Then cuddled him in his cot if he woke up (with me bent over for 20 mins or so but killed my back). But every 45 minutes he would wake up and we would have to cuddle him again till he fell asleep. We then tried PUPD baby whisperer thing - but he hated that and it stimulated him too much.

After about 3 months of NCSS etc we reluctantly did CC. It took about 6 weeks for me to decide to do it - because about once a week we would have an okay night (only up 3 or 4 times!) and i would hope and pray that it might get better on its own. But after 6 nights a week of waking every 45 minutes - we just had to do something.

I couldn't do it, so DH did it while i hid in the kitchen making lots of noise. I just kept telling myself that he wasn't crying because we were abandoning him, as he knew we were still there (as we kept returning every 3 minutes) but because he was tired and wanted to sleep but didn't know how as he had always fallen asleep in my arms or on the boob - it was just something different for him.

As i said it took 1 night of 30-40 mins (after about 45 mins of playing) and he slept all night for 10 hours with no getting up, and night 6 and 7 were another 30 mins or so - but i was amazed at how quick it was - although it just reinforced our feeling that he was SO ready to do it himself.

Although my friend just did it and it took a week - but her DH did it too. Is that an option for you ? Sometimes they are just stronger and less emotional than us.

BUT i'm still not telling you to do it - as that is solely a decision for you and your family. But i just want you to know that we have been through it and survived and our lives are unrecognisable now from what they were 4 months ago.

llf, I can't tell you how helpful that last post is. THANK YOU. It sounds just like us (trying gentler solutions, picking up just making things worse etc) and I, like you, change my mind about CC all the time - but I always come back to it. I can't believe we'd be lucky enough for it only to take 40 or so mins the first night (I say "only", I know it's all relative), cos I know she's easily capable of crying for at least 2 hours without respite. But I hope I'd also be able to tell myself that she was crying because she wanted to sleep, because I truly believe that's the case for her too.

DH also says he will do it - he's able to get slightly more emotional detachment and also he's less able to comfort her (I s'pose cos he doesn't have the boobs), so maybe I will let him. I thought maybe it ought to be me the first night as if I didn't appear at all, only DH, DD really would think I'd abandoned her forever. But I do very occasionally go out in the evening and DH puts her to bed alone so I guess this wouldn't be different in that sense.

Can I ask you two things? How old was your DS when you did it? And what was your nap situation at the time? For us, at the moment DD only ever naps either BFing or carried in the sling (either on me or DH, either of us will do).

DS was 7 months when we did it. At the time he was having 3 regular naps a day in his cot - varying lengths. Usually 45 minutes but sometimes i could resettle him for another 45. He was always cuddled to sleep though and sometimes for 30 mins of a 45 min sleep! We got to this stage using NCSS (previously we cuddled him for the duration of his naps sometimes 4 hours a day and always in a dark room! Prior to this it was hours of driving in the car!)

I have to say that i think other factors have also helped his sleeping eventually. At this age he had just started 3 good solid meals a day (along with 4 BFs) (i know this isn't supposed to help them sleep all night but i do think it helped! he's a big boy), he was also able to roll happily and so could now start sleeping comfortably on his side and front and finally, now he is able to find his dummy 80% of the time and replace it himself. I do think that these have all helped recently too....

Hope this helps. Whatever you decide to do you will find support here.

Thanks llf. I wonder whether we ought to sort out DD's naps before her nighttime sleep, or whether once nights are better she'll be able to sleep in her cot during the day. It's tricky. Still, she'll have to nap somehow at the childminder's in 3 weeks' time, so we'll see how that affects things.

One more question, if I may - was your DS's cot in his own room when you did CC? DD is still in our room and at 8 months I'd quite like to move her to her own room, but wonder whether we'd have to go through the process again when we move her. Would it be better to move her to her own room and try CC all at once, rather than doing it now and then again in a few weeks (fingers crossed) when we felt brave enough to move her into her own room? Sorry, rambling a bit now. Hope this makes sense.

bean, personally I would do the two simultaneously. You may find she sleeps better without your rustlings. Equally you will probably find it a bit of a blessing to be spared the electrifying horror of hearing her snuffling and halfwaking. (Some of the time fingers Xed she may resettle anyway.)

I'm sure it's no coincidence that the first time DS slept through from dreamfeed (11pm-ish) to 6 or 7am was the first night he slept alone in his own room . That was, honestly, one of the best days of my life.

Ferber has a good take on how naps impact on the nights. Order the book from the library!

I did cc at 9mo with DS1 but will have no hesitation with DS2 from about 7mo if he was waking on the scale you describe. It took 2 nights to go from 10+ wakings a night (while co-sleeping) to sleeping through in his own cot. It wasn't easy but in retrospect DS1 was fed up with being rocked/cuddled etc and needed his own space to sleep properly.

We didn't do it for naps -- I carried on cuddling him to sleep or pushing in pram til he was about a year, but one day just put him down and left the room and he went to sleep without a murmur. So I think once they learn to sleep alone at night they will soon be able to do it in the day too.

Read the Dr Ferber book. I am on night 3 of controlled crying. used it as we have taken the dummy off our 5 month old DD. She was waking in the night and I had to put it back in to get her to sleep. She was ok on it but I was awake all night playing the dummy in dummy out game!

Was VERY hard at first listening to screaming but it is getting easier. 1st night took an hour to get her to sleep, tonight just 15 minutes. You know that even if your nights are sleepless for a bit while you do the CC, it is for a reason and is contructive.

Bean did you say that dd had silent reflux?? IS there no way it could still be that?? The sheer amount of times she is waking up crying suggests there is something wrong rather than just not being able to self settle.
And believe me you have my massive sympathy DS was a non sleeper too.

This brings back awful memories of DS1. I so identify with the sheer hell of sleep deprivation. Specially going back to work as well on about 90 mins sleep.

Do the controlled crying. We eventually did. First night - several hours worth of bellowing. second night 45 mins. third night about 15 mins.

My experience was that it wasn't a one-off fix though. It would gradually go wrong again, or he would have a cold or jabs or somesuch. So we would do it again. Actually we would take him to MILs detached house and do it there...

Both my boys were about 3 before they slept right through the night. But I am talking about waking up and getting into our bed for a bit before being taken back. Nothing major.

Now they are 9 and 7 and bright happy boys , not psychologically disturbed and great at sleeping.

I would give it a try I really would.

PS the cranial osteopathy might well help

Oh thank you, thank you, thank you, all of you. I think I am gradually getting up the confidence to see this through. Largely because over the last 2 or 3 weeks it's become increasingly the most obvious way forward. When she's cross and rejecting of cuddles and BF, it just seems like comfort is not what she needs, she needs the independence to get to sleep on her own.

However, she still has a bit of a cold including a nasty cough, so we need to wait till she's better before contemplating starting. Also I'm not sure she hasn't got a bottom tooth coming through, and if she has we also need to wait. She has an appt at the rapid referral clinic at the hospital in a week's time, to rule out any physiological problems, then the osteopath 2 weeks after that. Then we're going away for a long weekend a few days after THAT. So will it ever be the right time?!

Ineedacleaner - good point, we did wonder about the reflux. But it's a completely different pattern to how she was before she got treated - she would howl for hours during the day and evening especially, but was always better by bedtime, bizarrely. Now, she's generally fine during the day (apart from very obvious things, like the outrage of being put in her car seat), but it's night-time when she screams. So I'm pretty sure it's not the reflux rearing its head again.

bean - you're still standing! You can do this! MASSIVE support to you whatever you decide to do - although as others have said it sounds as if you've decided to go for CC because nothing else works.

I'll tell you (an abridged version of) our sleep saga. Things are going better in the Aldehouse now - wee boy (now 21 weeks) is sleeping from 8ish til 7ish waking every 4 hours for a feed. Which is so much better than waking every 1-2 hours before.

So. DS was always rocked/fed/carried in sling to sleep for the first 3 months. He slept in his cot next to our bed pretty early as co-sleeping just didn't work for us (he is a super loud snorty sleeper; neither of us did bf lying down well, so me and DS and Dh all ended up awake and pissed off anyway; I got cramp from curling up around him & couldn't sleep for fear of him being squashed... sound familiar?).

Then - shock horror! - one after the other our failsafe methods of getting him to sleep stopped working. As soon as we put him down from our arms he pinged awake and YELLED yelled yelled. We ended up doing this ridiculous slow knee-bounce, like demented Reggae dancers, for hours every evening. I started dreading night time. At about 13 weeks something in me just snapped and I though my God I can't carry on like this... so we just put him down (after bath cuddle song feed, the works) in his cot, put wax earplugs in, and took turns standing over his cot shushing/singing/stroking/smiling at him while he screamed. We did it for all his naps too. And when he woke in the middle of the night just 1 hour after his last feed.It was the hardest thing. DH broke out into beads of sweat and his legs shook; I felt sick. The first night DS screamed for 1 hr 14 (yep, 14) minutes. Next night 1 hour. It took about 10 days for DS to settle to sleep without massive rages but eventually he did...

...that worked for a few weeks until a) we went on holiday and b) he started teething. Then it all reverted back to the hell of Before, when I posted on this thread.
So basically we did it all over again, only this time when we stayed there with him he just got more and more enraged than we weren't picking him up. So we left the room and went back every 3-5 minutes until eventually he realised we weren't going to pick him up, he took the dummy and went to sleep. It took less this time.

Proviso: although DS now wakes every 4 hours and settles back to sleep immediately after a good bf, he still really hates going to sleep. I think he just hates missing the action and doesn't want to go to sleep. It's not the cot or the room or feeling abandoned because when he wakes up he gurgles happily to himself for 15 mins before we go to get him. He still cries when we put him down for nap and sleeptime, but he cries for less and less. It's not ideal, he's definitely not an angel baby, but it's way better than before... And! 3 nights ago he went to sleep on his own, no dummy, no tears! So it is possible. It just takes time.

Like you, we did this because everything else stopped working. The PUPD of the baby whisperer didn't work - DS just got more & more worked up and just expected us to pick him up.

It's HORRIBLE when nothing works and your baby is just screaming in your arms, on your boob, all the time. But what it seems to me is than my DS just ("just"! Hah!) needed to learn that he could sleep on his own in his wee cot in his wee room; that it was ok and lovely and safe to do so. He's still learning, but he gets happier all the time as he sleeps more.

Oh, and we put DS on his side with a rolled up towel, he sleeps loads better that way. Also we put him into his own room and that helped loads: I didn't jerk awake at every snuffle or sigh (there are lots of them) and I'm convinced that not hearing us there helped him not wake up so much.

Re naps: I'd say naps and night sleep are related in that if your DD manages to settle on her own she'll do it whenever. And if my DS reaches evening too tired due to crap naps it's much more difficult to settle him. But I wouldn't wait to sort naps before night sleep or vice versa.

What I'd suggest (take all this with shovels of salt!): put DD in her cot in her own room and be prepared for a week or more of AWFULness. Give her extra extra extra cuddles and love during the day. Up to you whether to stay in room with her or go in every so often. It will be so hard, but here are some thoughts which help(ed) us:

You've done everything possible to avoid this andnothing worked!

Nothing could be harder than the nights you've already endured.

You now have a plan, which will eventually have a result: no more dreading endlessly repeated months of might misery with no end in sight.

You're doing this also for your DD's sake so she can sleep better.

She will NOT be traumatised, hold it against you or hate you forever. DS now greets us with a massive gummy grin every waking time because he's well rested and happy. We play with him and carry him all day, he is so loved and he knows it well.

Advice given to us by friends (fellow survivors of sleepless hell) which helped:

Be consistent (don't cave in on day 2 and pick her up or whatever)

Count every tiny bit of progress as a massive achievement. It all happens in baby steps, every minute less of crying / more of sleep is a step in the right direction.

There will be setbacks and "relapses" because of illness/teeth/travel, but remember that once your baby has learned to sleep well one night she can do it again!

And to echo last post - have you checked it's not reflux?

Hmm. This is a mammoth post, sorry if boring or irrelevant.

LAst thing, then I'll shut up: my wee nephew screamed pretty much constantly for the first 6-7 months of his life. It seriously rocked my bil's marriage. They took him to a cranial osteopath person and apparently that really did help, so good luck to you on that one.

Over and out!

bean612 I honestly wouldn't discount the reflux if she has a history of it.
DS when tiny screamed all the time much later on and fairly well established on solids the pattern did change and it wasn't until nightime and he was lying down and had mainly milk and no food in his stomach anymore that he started howling again. The solids thicken the contents of the stomach and in some cases this helps stop the acid rising but at night with a more liquid tummy added to lying down brings it all back.
Please do consider it as an option first the regularity and crying doesn't just sound like a baby that won't sleep it sounds like something is bothering her.

Excellent post aldegirl!

bean, our DS is in his own room. There was no problem with the transition for us, as it was the same cot, and he sometimes took naps in his room before we moved him (albeit in our arms!) But i would probably tackle this at the same time. I think it would be easier on all of you to do it all together.

As for naps, i really don't know... It took a looooooooong time for us to get him napping in his cot using NCSS - about 2months. And i don't think you'll survive another couple of months of the current situation ! To be honest naps have always been traumatic for us. When we did PUPD, he ended up not sleeping at ALL during the day, it was just one endless hour after another of crying. So when we did CC we decided to set a time limit of 30 minutes in total, and if he wasn't asleep we would just do anything we could to get him to sleep. As it turned out, he never made it to 30 mins - it was usually just a minute or 2 if anything.

(Although since he's been ill and teething, we might be cheating a bit because we never put him down when he's totally agitated - we always wait till he's calmer - something to work on once he's better!)

So we went to the (horrible but all the nice ones were away) GP about DD's cough to see if he would recommend antibiotics to get her better and stop her waking for hours every night (if indeed that's why she's particularly bad at the moment, who knows). Last night she woke as I crawled into bed at 11 and woke fitfully until 1am when she was then awake till 3.45. I had about an hour's sleep before she woke again at 5. I lay awake till 6am when DH took over and gave me a few hours before he went late, again, to work.

Anyway, according to GP it's not DD's appalling sleeping that's the main problem, it's the fact that we're stressed and anxious and upset. And apparently DD is picking up on this and it's making her worse. So basically it's our fault. He mentioned Relate. There's nothing wrong with our relationship, apart from the fact that we haven't slept in the same bed for months - if anything we are stronger than we've ever been (thank god). We just NEED HELP. He said I have PND. Maybe I do. HV was going to do the Edinburgh Test but forgot it twice for her last 2 visits. I don't know why I didn't say something. I'm not ashamed of it, I just don't want drugs that will numb me and make me fuzzy and only half-here. But last night I cried and cried, while DD listened quietly. When I stopped she started herself...

You being stressed and anxious won't help I agree but it's doubtful that it's the cause.
If you really do believe you have PND then not all anti-d's will make you feel like that honestly.
Did you see what I said above adding to the reflux thing? It is possible despite different symptoms earlier.
We had an awful time with ds but with the right meds and we did change a couple of times as his needs changed it made a huge difference.

Oh bean - that sounds so familiar. I went to the doctor and she told me i had PND too - but i knew i didn't really. When DS had a good day/night of sleep, i felt okay. When he had a bad day/night (most of the time) i felt awful - depressed, crying constantly, grumpy, over-sensitive about everything, arguing all the time with my poor husband etc etc.

But because i didn't feel like this all the time, i really doubted if it was true depression, but rather just stress about DSs sleeping. My mood was entirely dependant on his sleep....

She offered me drugs and gave me numbers to phone to talk about it, but i knew they wouldn't help. The only thing that would make me feel better was a baby who slept 'normally'.

As soon as we made decisions to change stuff i felt better, and since starting NCSS, CC etc, i've been up and down, but recently much more up than down. The main thing that gets me down now is that i am sleep-obsessed. My whole day and life revolve around trying to get him to sleep/enough sleep etc etc.....

But forgive me, because your situation and feelings are probably entirely different to ours - but don't let your doctor make you feel like its your fault. Your DD may sometimes be picking up on tension, but i'm sure thats not what has made her a bad sleeper....

I think you just need to do SOMETHING and start seeing some progress - i'm SURE that would help you feel better and more positive.

Bean - you are obviously at the end of your tether! I know some people dont like CC but its worth giving it a go. You sound like you are going through hell at the moment so try it with your DP/DH and see how you get on....it cant be worse than you are going through at the minute. I did it with DD2 and only ever left her for couple of mins at a time. I can give you step by step what I did if that will help.

bean, sod what other people say. What do you feel (other than exhausted)? I'd second LLF and say also with me my mood entirely depended on DS' sleep. I got to the point that I was hearing him screaming when I was walking alone in the street, having a shower, when he was visibly asleep in the pram...I was a wreck and dreaded the nights but don't think that's PND, it's "just" the normal effects of severe sleep deprivation. Form of torture and all that. I would seriously doubt the wisdom of a GP who started to blame YOU for your DD not sleeping! Am so glad you and your DH are stronger than before. Know what you mean. It's like surviving some horrendously hard mountain climb together and finding you have even more respect.

You are doing so well bean I think - I mean, it sounds AWFUL and yet you haven't given up hope (I hope!), you're still looking for solutions.

I wanted to say that I think there never will be a "right" time to start sleep training. We kept on putting it off (a cold, a holiday, teething, visitors staying over...) but that just made it worse. And babies teethe for YEARS (argh!). And the more you wait the more they have to unlearn in terms of sleep habits; and they scream louder too! Imagine doing CC when your DD can stand up and kick at her cot ?

Sounds like you are checking out all possible health causes (cough reflux etc) which is great - but also really sound like you've tried everything and are approaching CC crunch time...

...I wonder if it'd be more helpful in your head to call it "sleep training"? That made us bizarrely feel better. And it's taken AGES for us Bean, and it's still no way perfect, but it's miles better than before. I see it as creating a series of signals that the baby reads and gradually begins to understand; one more thing we teach our DS, just like how to sing or speak.

Re babies picking up on parental tension - definitely something in that, but only up to a point. I mean, if all is sweetness and calm in the house a baby babies still scream, and viceversa they can fall asleep randomly in the middle of loud shops.

Other things that have helped us:

• always have the same bedtime song

• going round the house saying "goodnight" to everything

• always the same kiddy bath soap stuff, so he associates the smell with bedtime

• drops of geranium / lavender oil on the carpet of his room, so that's the smell of sleepy place

• a wee musical star that lights up and projects revolving pictures on the ceiling. We attached it to the side of his cot, he stared at it in between screams, then slowly the screams lessened and then his eyes started closing still staring at the star. We got it on Amazon, it's a "Tomy" one.

• a sleeping bag, or gro-bag, or whatever they're called, you get the idea. He used to kick off the covers in his fury but this way we don't need to bother. I wash it with a few drops of the geranium/lavender oil so it smells of sleep too.

• A wee taggy toy, soft and floppy, that I slept on for a few nights so it smells of me. Now he falls asleep with his face on it smiling...

• From when he was born we put him to sleep on a lambskin fleece thing (I know, HV had a SIDS-risk conniption but hey) which he now totally associates with sleep and we take it with us when we're sleeping away.

All very pavlovian training stuff, but honestly I was amazed to see how much my ds learns and benefits from repetition and association, be it sound or smell or ritual. Now DS looks around for the bath as soon as we take him to the bathroom after the "goodnight" round, and as soon as his bath's done he reaches out for my boobs like some lechy old man in a B movie.

At the beginning we did all this stuff with wax ear plugs in as he yelled his lungs out. We just kept on doing it though (I'll let you imagine the looks of glazed despair on our faces), like engraving the same track again and again and again on a particularly scratchy LP. Now DS chuckles in his bath. It WILL get better - and as others have said it's can't really get much worse...

Really feel for you bean. There should be a sisterhood of the sleepdeprived mums I reckon, with medals for survivors and special pampering for those still soldiering through.

Good luck tonight!

By "other people" I meant GP and HV, not other mumsnetters