at the very end of my tether - please tell me controlled crying might help for 7-month-old

[bean612]

DD has been screaming for the last 45 mins. She went to sleep at 7.45, woke up at 8.30 but we managed to shush her back to sleep. This time though she is furious. At the moment she's like this every night - 3 wakings with varying degrees of screaming before we go to bed, then up 2 or 3 (or 4) times in the night, sometimes just grizzling, sometimes screaming. We don't feed her, just give her water, but it's not food she wants. She CAN get herself to sleep as we used to put her down for the night awake and she'd get herself to sleep within 5-15 mins without much problem. But now... I vacillate between sobbing myself and feeling furious and having to leave the room to calm down. I can't take it much longer. Seems to me like CC is the only option left.

Thank you saintmaybe. I appreciate it.

Greenmonkies -
I expect her to be able to settle herself off to sleep because I know plenty of babies her age and younger who do so without a problem. Much more pertinently, though, DD herself used to do it without a problem, so I know she can. If you had read my posts properly you'd have seen that.

Trying CC might look like a "quick fix" solution, but it's only after trying other ways that haven't worked. This isn't the first thing we've thought of, we're much further down the line than that.

I am responding to my baby's needs. Again, if you had read my earlier posts properly you'd see that I do pick her up and cuddle her, sit next to her and cuddle her, shush her, etc. Often that doesn't actually soothe her very much - I'm fairly sure that part of the reason she's crying is that she's overtired and can't get to sleep at all, with or without us. This, I suspect, is because she's no longer napping properly during the day and so is beside herself with tiredness by bedtime. This is a connected problem to the night-time screaming that we're also trying to sort out.

Also on the responding to her needs front, the only way she will nap, and this has been the case since she was born, is either feeding or being carried in the sling. I have no problem with this and am happy to let her nap this way if it's what she needs, but lately it doesn't seem to work any more and she wakes up on the dot of 30mins after falling asleep. So napping close to me isn't working.

I would be happy to rock/nurse her to sleep at night if it meant she would stay asleep, indeed this is how she went to sleep for the first 5 months of her life. At 5 months, though, it became a problem - she started waking after 45 mins-1 hour every night, and I'm pretty sure (after talking to HV etc) that this was because she was falling asleep in our arms, then stirring after the first sleep cycle to find herself somewhere else and was distressed by the change. So we got her to fall asleep in her cot from being awake, and those 1-hour-after-falling-asleep wakings stopped.

Plenty of people who don't agree with CC have come on here and made their views clear, but in a generally supportive and unjudgemental way, which I really appreciate. It would have been nice if you'd asked about some of the background to the problem instead of making unfair assumptions.

And, I know I said it before, but the 'no-cry sleep solution' is useful in that it gives a range of options, recognising that there are both different kinds of parenting and different kinds of children, it gives some structure and feeling of progress, and it's quite empowering. As opposed to some other, more didactic books, which can make you feel a bit inadequate.

And thank you also Curlyhaired - we X-posted.

Okay, this is why people lose faith with MN. My HV is categorically NOT a loon, but has been a huge source of help and support through a variety of problems since DD was born (hospitalisation at 11 days, awful BF problems which she helped me overcome, etc, etc). Without her I truly might have gone mad. You've never met her. Please don't throw out such ridiculous and uninformed statements.

Overtiredness - I don't agree, I'm afraid. DD has never been in a strict routine, in fact never been in any kind of routine unless you count regular feeds. Some would say routine is what she needs. I probably wouldn't agree, though open to suggestions, which is why I came on here in the first place. By and large I try to listen to what she needs and respond to it. But I'm not sure I can have her asleep on my lap every evening for the next 6 months, or a year, or whatever. If that makes me a selfish mother then so be it.

As for the 4-5 month support thread - thank you. I've seen it before, but I'll take another look to see if there is more there that could help.

But do remember that even the most fervent supporters of controlled crying, including the man who first outlined the process, say that it NOT appropriate for under 1s.

Also remember that just because a baby could do something doesn't meant that she will carry on being able to do something. She is growing and developing and her brain is changing all the time (I know you know that - I don't meant o be patronizing). Your 5 month old baby could self settle, your 7 month old can't. Her needs are different. I really recommend taking her into bed with you for a while. In two months time she'll be a different person again with a whole new set of needs!

I agree with Seeker...my second son almost never cried from when he was born to the age of roughly 6 months. Then the teething started and he would cry, sometimes, at night...he was also much more clingy. But because I was there, right next to him, I could act immediately, give him some pain relief, cuddle and hold him and feed him back to sleep.

I was quite disappointed that the contentedness didn't continue indefinitely! Having him so happy for the first 6 months was a blessing, but there are times in his life when he'll encounter pain or worry etc and I think we just need to ride it together.

I hope your dd settles better soon. Trying to make a baby do something it evidently isn't ready for or going by friends' children etc isn't going to be your best bet, I think. There isn't an age by which she ought to be able to do this or that.

Hope you aren't too disillusioned with us honestly it is frustrating when I hear a mother worrying that her child isn't 'normal' or can't do such and such, and is getting anxious and stressed about it. This is just part of parenthood. It won't be like it forever. I can't emphasize that enough - try to give yourself a break and go with the flow.

Greenmonkies - the OP is asking for help, I don't think an aggressive rant like that is going to help her much.

Anyway, different strokes and all that. Here is my take on this...

Controlled crying worked for us.

At 8 months old DD was getting seriously over tired in the evening (and no, she's not in a strict routine SM) and just got more and more hysterical. She was at her worst being held in my arms and if I tried to breastfeed to sleep (worked wonderfully for first 7 months) she would bite and scratch. She clearly wanted to go to sleep but didn't know how. This upset me, I'm quite relaxed and keen to follow DD's lead - she's exBF, BLW and the rest.

So, we decided after lots of thought to at least try CC. After just a couple of nights DD was going down to sleep without a fuss and staying asleep until morning most nights. She goes down for naps too without a murmer. It was hard to do but it has made a huge difference to all of us. Most importantly to DD who is a bright and happy little baby.

Links please, if you have them, Growingup, would be much appreciated.

bean - great post and nice to see some positive feedback on your HV. From what you read on here sometimes you'd think all HVs are the devil's spawn intent on messing our kids up when what they actually are is decent people trying to do a decent job despite crap conditions and pay.

bean I did read the whole of your OP, and I can see/hear what you are saying, but you are not really listening to what I am saying. Stop trying to "make" her do things, as Starlight says, let her lead you, which by the sound of things is essentially what you have been doing with most things except sleep, which you have been trying to take control of. A tired baby will fall asleep, where ever it is, in a pram, in a sling, on your lap in a restaurant, in a highchair, I agree with Starlight that "over tired" is an overused term, they can be over stimulated, but if you settle down some where a quiet and nurse her she will almost certainly fall asleep if she's tired.

And I think that babies who "self-settle" only do it because they have been taught to, and this invariably involves being left to cry, being given a dummy or put in a rocking/vibrating swing/chair. Small babies instinctively need physical contact. When tiny babies are put down and left alone it distresses them, some cry, some shutdown and go to sleep. CC works on exactly this loss of hope/shutdown mechanism. They don't stop crying and go to sleep because they are content and "settled" but because they see no alternative. In this respect "self settling" is a coping method, not a sign of contentment.

My messages may not seem that supportive, but as someone with two "non-sleepers" I know just how debilitating exhaustion really is, and how frustrating it is when you hear about 12 hour/7-7 sleeping babies, and how tempting it sometimes seems to go down the CC route. But if hearing her cry leaves you howling in the kitchen then I think you have answered your own question about CC being for you. I also know how much pressure you may well be under from well-meaning family and friends who think you need to get tough and deal with her "sleep problems", I know, I really do!! (my sister said to me "you'll have to leave her to cry eventually, you might as well get it over with" she was wrong, I have never left either DD to cry, and both now sleep all night in their own beds, it has just taken longer for them to do it than most people consider to be acceptable/normal)

I used to sit with them on my lap until they were done cluster feeding then, once they were deeply asleep I'd transfer them to the reclining chair thingy, or DP would hold her. We found it really nice, to be cuddling a sleeping baby, and not intrusive at all. If you really can't do this then take one side off her cot and wedge/cable tie it to your bed and lay her down in it and lie down next to her and feed her to sleep. Once she's asleep you can get up with out disturbing her the way being put down does, and she'll probably stay asleep. This sidecar cot worked really well for us with DD2 because she is quite a light sleeper, and if she was not moved after she fell asleep she would stay asleep, but putting her down when she fell asleep on y lap was really hard, she always woke. (you could put DD1 down once she was deep asleep, she sleeps like her dad, out cold!!)

Growing up - please could you give references to anyone who says that controlled crying is suitable for under 1s? certainly, Dr Ferber himself doesn't.

and i think I'd disregard anyone who said this, tbh, growingup

'Parents sometimes unintentionally reward a child?s night-time waking. Rewards can be very subtle such as a quick kiss and cuddle back to sleep, tucking back in and a stroke on the head or sitting with your child as they go to sleep.

Once you?ve identified the reward decide how to withhold it.'

The woman runs a 'sleep clinic'. you can pretty much guarantee there's no money to be made in telling parents it's fine to just co-sleep if they want to.

But that's not a NHS recommendaton - it's an advertisement for a private sleep clinic!!!!

Before you leave the thread, growingup, please could you provide her qualifications and peer reviewed research? It shouldn't be difficult if the is,as you say, a "respected sleep expert". Couldn't find them myself, but that's probably my incompetence.

The link you provided doesn't say that the NHS recommends cc for this age group. It says that the NHS sells advertising space.