at the very end of my tether - please tell me controlled crying might help for 7-month-old

[bean612]

DD has been screaming for the last 45 mins. She went to sleep at 7.45, woke up at 8.30 but we managed to shush her back to sleep. This time though she is furious. At the moment she's like this every night - 3 wakings with varying degrees of screaming before we go to bed, then up 2 or 3 (or 4) times in the night, sometimes just grizzling, sometimes screaming. We don't feed her, just give her water, but it's not food she wants. She CAN get herself to sleep as we used to put her down for the night awake and she'd get herself to sleep within 5-15 mins without much problem. But now... I vacillate between sobbing myself and feeling furious and having to leave the room to calm down. I can't take it much longer. Seems to me like CC is the only option left.

Oh Greenmonkey - glad to see that having 2 children makes you the world-authority on bringing up babies.

And thanks so much for telling me that i'm abandoning my baby for leaving him alone for 3 minutes (as if it isn't hard enough to do without people like you making us feel worse.). Clearly your children have never been allowed to cry or left alone EVER - i'm SURE they're not going to grow up with any emotional problems at all rolls eyes

I find you offensive,rude and completely unhelpful.

And by the way, my 8 month boy is actually very intelligent, and there is NO WAY he thinks i'm abandoning him. He isn't actually crying because i'm leaving the room but because he is tired and wants to sleep, and in fact he doesn't cry anymore at sleeptime merely smiles and gurgles at me - so clearly not scared of abandonment - and since you don't know him or me then i would appreciate it if you didn't comment on me or my family anymore.

OP - only read your first post, but have you tried neurofen? (for you and the baby! )

We would literally have a fortnight at a time, giving calpol or neurofen every night (teeth) as DS would wake up screaming and furious.

HTH

GM and Starlight...
Maybe I have missed the point....I'm pretty new to mumsnet so perhaps I'm being naive but I'm a bit taken aback by the bluntness of some of the responses.
It's not that I don't agree with your advice- we fully co-slept with 12m old son until recently, now just do it when he's unsettled- and I'm really glad that we co-slept, breastfed on demand and responded to my son's need for constant cuddling & reassurance cos it was right for us and suited me as a mum. But it's different strokes for different folks, right? And whilst I also agree that managing your expectations are important for your sanity so that you don't feel like there's something wrong with your parenting or your baby when they don't sleep, there comes a point when enough is enough. I had to go back to work when my baby was 6 months old and it was really hard not only leaving my baby but coping with no sleep and being in the real world. I reached breaking point and introduced him to the cot. For the OP that point has obviously been reached too. Sorry to speak for you, but it seemed obvious to me that Bean had already decided she wanted to try CC and was after support. It's not like she was asking if it was ok to wean her baby on kebabs or get the neighbour's dog to babysit...
Anyway, I say make hay not war so I'm going to duck out (and maybe change my username, I hate confrontation...)). Good luck Bean, I'll be watching, but not commenting...

I'd advise you read the (lengthy!) thread: does CC cause psychological damage? on Mumsnet

though my main objection to cc is that if a baby was really determined, it might only learn to cry for longer and longer periods (caveat, this isn't backed up by any evidence other than what i know of dogs..) OTOH it really does work for a lot of people.

We went straight for CIO at 6 months (ie, not going at all). It worked. In two nights. (1 hour and a half first night, 10 mins the second.....full nights sleep almost every night since...although I still brought her in to co-sleep after morning feed (sometimes 6am)

I would have known if this had caused any (further) upset: it didn't.

to make this work (either cio or cc): I think it is important to assure yourself your baby is well fed, well in herself before bedtime, that her bed is safe and secure.

if that solution is unpalatable, the other suggestions (co-sleep, no-cry solution etc) may also work well. It is a matter of taste, and I'd resist any feeling that any lasting harm can be done by any of these options...but as there's 1000 posts on that topic discussing CC no need to go through it all again!

Hi bean. Have been reading this thread since the beginning but have only just decided to post and tell you my story.

I have a now 1yr old ds who also doesn't sleep. Its a two-hour cycle like clockwork for him and I wish I knew what he wanted when he woke up! It can take anything from as little as a cuddle and back to sleep, to a drink of water, to a full blown tantrum, to sleeping in the bed with me or to just simply be awake (yes, I've done a 3.30am start to the day before).

He has always been a terrible sleeper and was still waking for milk in the night at 8 months when I decided to try a method of cc with him to get him off the feed as he was having more than enough to eat during the day and I was worried he was over feeding! I also had to go back to work full time and wanted to sleep. It took 3 nights - first night 45mins of crying, second night 2 hours (awful!) third night 15 mins then he slept through.

BUT... it lasted 3 nights. He then got a cold, coincided with teething (4 coming through at once) and he was up hourly screaming. Since then he started to be sporadic (occasional sleep through with the majority night wakings) but we never gave him milk and just gave cuddles, nurofen when needed etc.

Now I'm not sure what is wrong. I have no idea whether he has "learnt" bad habits from us not being consistent in our choice to continue cc. Or whether he just wakes and that is him. I am unsure whether you can "make" a baby sleep if he/she doesn't want to. I know cc has worked for many but tbh I really can't do it again. Its not like it had the lasting effect many make out. I was under the impression you only need do cc once and your baby learns but thats just not the case. As soon as something happens (illness, teething, developmental stages) they go back to waking and you have to do it all over again.

So my advice is to really think hard about it before doing it as it is really hard (emotional, physical) and it may not be the quick fix solution you think it is. You may have to do it again and again and again.

Also, as for naps: my ds has a two hour nap after lunch which is apparently the perfect amount and it still bears no relation to his night sleeping. And yes, we have tried keeping him awake, shortening naps etc but nothing works. Honestly, I have tried it all. And whilst I too am on the floor howling and howling at wanting more sleep and not knowing what to do, I am slowly resigning myself to the fact that some babies (mine) don't sleep and may not sleep for some years. Scary thought, but its reality I guess.

Oops, another point I wanted to add: I know my parents did cc with me. Apparently I too was a nightmare sleeper who would throw myself out of the cot. They ignored me as much as they could (put pillows down so I didn't hurt myself) but generally just left me to it. Now whilst I think I am now a well-adjusted adult with no real problems, I have had a recurring dream since childhood about shouting and shouting something important and no-one hearing me - it is only since reading about sleep probs and cc that I have started to wonder whether there is a relation here and the dreams are the lasting affect of cc on me??

Sorry bit deep there.

Good luck with everything. Whatever you decide remember it is your decision. Do make sure you have the backup of your dp before doing anything as you need all the support you can get.

I'm off to see my GP later (1st year injections) and will be asking about sleep help myself. But I know they won't be able to offer me a pill that will solve all night wakings forever... if only it could, eh?

Have you tried Pick Up Put Down from the Baby Whisperer's 2nd book?

My ds is 7.5 months and I have been doing this for 2 weeks and it's honestly been like a magic solution.

DS was swaddled from birth (he was prem) and rocked to sleep every night for those 7.5 months, and the PUPD method worked so quickly I couldn't believe it.

You also don't feel as bad as with CC....I don't think I could have done that as I have no willpower when he cries!

2 weeks in and I now put him in the cot after having a little cuddle, then he rolls around and has a bit of a whinge, then goes off to sleep after about 10 mins.

The first time I ever did it, it took 40 mins and I picked him up about 20 times, but it was still easier than rocking him for 20 mins.

Also a huge bonus has been that he now stays asleep for much longer - all through the night now from 7pm-6.30am, and since I started PUPD he's been doing nice long naps during the day.

I thought there was no way it could work but I was amazed by it, and so have a few of my friends who have tried it - it's definitely worth a try.

Hi Bean (if you're still there, and I wouldn't blame you if you aren't!), I'm certainly not going to judge you and there's no advice I can give that hasn't already been offered.

What I will say is please come and join us on the totally non-judgy and very friendly six month+ sleep support thread

It's a lovely place to have a moan, share your pain, laugh and maybe even get some advice. It's my second home...

hello, bean, tell us about your baby's naps.....

greenmonkies I'm assuming you object to the following sentence in its entirety, so here goes ("it's a good idea to eliminate all other possibilities for your baby's inability to self-settle and sleep through the night (which she should be able to do by 7 months)"). Other posters mentioned that all other possibilities for bean's baby's inability to self-settle and sleep through the night and, so far as self-settling and sleeping through the night are concerned, Ferber certainly thinks so, and I know so from my own experience. My second son has been self-settling from birth, because we gave him the opportunity to learn how to do this (and no, this didn't mean allowing a newborn to howl himself to sleep; it did mean putting him to bed with a full tummy, well burped, and very drowsy so that all he needed to do was utter a few squeaks before falling asleep) and sleeping through the night since he was seven weeks old. Even my first child, who has been a horrendous sleeper, was sleeping through the night (i.e. not waking for feeds) from 12 weeks old but, because we were new parents, we didn't understand the importance of teaching him to self-settle (and I can well imagine you spluttering with fury as you read this), so he only ever learnt to fall asleep on my chest and stay there, which was lovely until it meant that I didn't get a wink of sleep because I had 10lbs of baby pinning me to the bed. And then once he did learn to sleep in his cot, it was only after being rocked and cuddled to sleep, which would sometimes take more than two hours. Frankly, I wasn't going to repeat that mistake with baby number 2 because my sanity just wouldn't take it. You and starlight can sit smugly on your laurels thinking that I'm selfish and have unrealistic expectations of my children, but I'm not and do not - I am just trying to bring up my children in a family where there is mutual respect for EVERYONE'S needs, and to ensure that they acquire the independence and confidence to do what they need to do for themselves as it is developmentally appropriate, starting with falling asleep in their own bed without assistance.

starlight, I'm not sure why my sleeping habits are relevant to this discussion but, since you ask, I neither sleep alone nor with two small children hogging the bed - call me hypocritical, but I sleep with my husband and that's just the way I like it.

Crikey, this discussion really has taken on a life of its own, and that's the way it should be of course.

Starlight, the thing is that Greenmonkies' views, from my point of view at least, are perfectly valid and give pause for thought - but her aggressive and judgemental attitude is alienating and instinctively gets people's backs up. While you are saying more or less the same things as she is, you are relatively neutral. At least you were until your last pointlessly snide question to ttalloo. Shame.

Anyway, to update on my own situation...

We've had a night where, apart from a couple of very brief wake-ups before 10.30pm, DD slept through until 7am (at which point I felt stupid and rather guilty about my OP). A night where DD cried inconsolably for an hour (and no, she wasn't left to cry on her own, she was in DH's arms) and then woke up 4 times in the night. A night where she woke up a couple of times but went back to sleep with a bit of brief shushing but I lay awake for hours, too wired to sleep myself. A night where she woke at 4.30am, cried for an hour despite me trying everything (shushing and cuddling in the cot, then shushing and cuddling in bed with me, lying her on my chest, breastfeeding her, etc).

We've had daytimes where I cried when DD woke up after her nap because she'd only slept for 30 mins and I was desperately hoping she'd sleep for longer since lately short naps inevitably mean nightmare bedtime (and DD looked at me like I was a nutter - can't blame her really). And daytimes where I've been bright and happy, largely because DD has been too. My HV asked if I thought I had PND and I said I didn't think so, because my mood seems to be entirely linked to how DD is sleeping (both day and night) - good days/nights I'm happy, bad days/nights I'm not - and I had mild depression years ago and know you generally feel sh*t regardless of any good things that are happening in your life.

ttalloo, naps - basically we've had huge trouble getting DD to sleep for more than half an hour at a time, more than twice a day, so her total daytime sleep is usually no more than an hour. As a result, by the evening she is beside herself with tiredness and getting her to sleep is a marathon of grizzling and crying because she's so tired. It usually starts around dinnertime - we're trying to BLW her but she's too tired to be interested in feeding herself and just cries to get out of the highchair. Then we have to jolly her through her bath. Then she yells while we're trying to get her in her grobag. Then she yells even more after we put her in her cot (after a bottle and cuddle). Today, however, was a revelation because she had a late afternoon nap (which I thought she'd dropped forever) and bedtime was a dream in comparison to recent weeks. This is why I don't agree with Starlight's theory that overtiredness is a myth - tonight dinner, bathtime and bedtime were all quite happy, and I put her in her cot wide awake. She was fine, squeaking and gurgling away to herself with only the odd grizzle - in the end she seemed so chilled that I left her to it and went downstairs, and she put herself to sleep without either me or DH being anywhere near her. She's woken up briefly 3 times so far but I managed to shush her back to sleep each time. We'll see how she does tonight - DH will get up with her and I'm going to sleep in the spare bedroom, bless him (last night was the night I lay awake for hours waiting for her to wake).

So I guess the upshot is that things have been totally unpredictable, though by and large better than last week, so perhaps we are just entering a new phase. And I am feeling a bit more chilled and have lurched from feeling like extreme methods are the only way to thinking I'm going to go with the flow a bit more and start trying to work "with" DD rather than "against" her (eg. taking her to bed with me if I can't comfort her in her cot within a few minutes, rather than spending ages getting stressed about it not working). I'm certainly not ruling out the possibility of other methods, including CC, further down the line, though - I'll probably be thinking about it again next week if DD's previous unpredictability is anything to go by . And I have to say that going the "easy" route is entirely a reflection of how I've been feeling these last couple of days, rather than "seeing the light" as far as certain anti-CC posters are concerned...

"As a result, by the evening she is beside herself with tiredness and getting her to sleep is a marathon of grizzling and crying because she's so tired"

Have you tried to put her to bed earlier? Seriously if my LO has an earlier than usual afternoon nap or has a very short one we just put him to bed earlier (has been as early as 6pm and usual time is 7pm), makes no difference to the time he wakes up.

Also I know you say she has short naps but still go to bed when she does in the morning and afternoon, I napped every morning when my LO was waking up at 5am as it's the only way I could get thru the day and the only way I could cope with getting him out of his cot between 5:00-5:30am with a smile on my face (I didn't want to co-sleep either)

bean.. have you seen this thread?
i could have written your OP but have found something that really works. Don't want to re-type everything so have a look on the other thread. In the two weeks since I started new method, DS has slept through from bedtime to 6.30 for the first time ever, we've had 12 nights of one wakeup and only one bad night. Although with hindsight, the bad night we've just had would have been a good night a month ago!

Libra - yes, good point, and we have in fact started to put her to bed earlier. Bedtime used to be 8-8.30 when she was having a late afternoon nap, but when she stopped this nap we started putting her to bed an hour earlier. But even then she's often overtired. Maybe we should put her to bed at 6! But then she'd be having dinner and bath ridiculously early. Ah, I don't know.

As for napping when he does in the daytime - nice idea, and I remember fondly the early days of DD's life when everyone said "sleep when the baby does". Ho ho ho - baby only naps on me (either in a sling or breastfeeding), so sadly it's not an option. Well, sometimes I manage to shuffle down to a lying position with her on my chest/tummy and get a bit of kip that way, but often not.

Miamia - I've had a look at the thread - thank you. I like your idea, the only thing is that when DD's upset I can't imagine her settling with stroking and humming while still in her cot - when she's in that frame of mind she wants to be picked up, full stop. I've tried a variation before, ie. rubbing her back and shushing gently - it's like I'm not there at all, she just carries on regardless. Might try singing, though - haven't for a while, usually cos she's yelling too loudly to hear me

Only ridicously early for an adult, she's a baby still! We have food at 5, play at 5:30pm, bath at 6, milk&bed between 6:30pm and 7:00pm and if we think he is too tired we just cut out the play and go straight to bath (of course we are not THAT perscriptive but just to give you an idea!)

No, sure, you're right, Libra, I was kind of joking. Though if we put her to bed at 6 that would mean dinner etc starting around 4.30, when I'd probably still be trying to get her to take a "midday" nap! Does your LO still get up for the day at 5-5.30am, out of interest? Not sure how well I'd cope with that every day! At the moment she hasn't been up for the day before 6.15, thank god.

Have you tried to get her to nap in her pram? For months naptime would be me putting him in his pram, covering it with a light blanket as he was in the dark and then pushing him back and forth in the kitchen (whilst I MN!) until he fell asleep.

He woke up between 5:00am-5:30am for about 2-3 months and the only way I survived was the nap we both had at 9am for an hour! Then this week, on Monday, I had just had enough so I didn't get him up at 5:00am I just went back in every 3-4 minutes, straightened him out and put the dummy back in if need be and then left the room, after 30minutes he fell back to sleep until 7:45am (of course by then I was worried that there was something wrong with him )
Whilst we haven't repeated that success since Monday he hasn't done his mummy come and get me shout until 6:30am which is a MUCH MUCH more civilised time!
I also did a version of leaving him and then going back in (CC) when I was trying to get him to sleep thru the night, even tho I never left him for as long as 5 minutes and he was only waking twice a night. It took 3 nights to crack it and never looked back since, in fact if he cries now in the night I DO go to him as I know something is wrong.

Personally I always think you have to make the best decision for YOU and YOUR child and then there is no point feeling guilty about it be that formula feeding, CC, where they sleep, how you wean them.

Bean, just to say I sympathise; my dd is 6mo and much the same as yours (except that we never had the self-settling bit!). At the moment we are coping by co-sleeping, and it's not exactly a perfect, happy solution - I don't sleep well and to be honest I would rather have my DH in bed with me. I can't face cc at the moment, though may kick myself if we end up having to do it anyway later on. I'd be fine if I could feel confident that this would be better by 9 months or a year...

Hope you manage to find a solution (or combination of solutions) that work for you, and that it helps a little to know that you are not the only one facing this situation! Best of luck.

Hi Bean, our evenings are still a bit unpredictable too. I have also decided not to get so stressed about his sleep and it may just be coincidence but his last 3 nights have been great! I've been trying to think about anything other than whether or not he will go to sleep, just told myself that he will eventually...took 2 hours the first night but he slept like a dream afterwards, til 8.30am!
Anyway, I'd totally forgotten until Libra's post reminded me...but as our boy was always such a poor napper we also brought bedtime forward a few months ago. He was so upset and miserable during bath etc, he was just too tired to enjoy it by then.
We play it by ear depending on whether or not naps have happened, but it now goes roughly like this:
dinner 4.30-5, play until half 5/ quarter to 6, then bath and, if really tired, straight to bed. It can be as early as 6.15 sometimes, more often closer to 7 though. It seems to suit him better.

Bean, hello. I just joined Mumsnet to thank you for your post about babysleep (or lack thereof) - it's so refreshing to hear from someone who sounds like a real person, not a saintly "oh this is the only right way to do it" dogmatist. I have a wee boy of 19 weeks whose sleep has just gone completely mental, possibly due to teething but who knows, and I was in tears of complete exhaustion at 6am today after 2 weeks of being up through the night every 2 hrs on the dot trying EVERYTHING to get him to sleep. Now when I go to see my HV later on I'll feel less of a freak for asking exactly your original question: "please tell me cc might work". Who knows what we'll end up doing - and it all might change suddenly anyway - but it's great to read your words. Keep us posted...

Hi Aldegirl, I'm very glad my thread has helped - if not to find a solution, at least to make you feel a bit better! In the absence of any magic bullets where baby issues are concerned, I think MN does help in making you realise that you're not alone. I'm really sorry about your sleepless nights, I know it's terrible when you think you've got it cracked and then it all suddenly goes t*ts up!! We had 3 and a half blissful weeks where DD fell asleep in her cot at bedtime (we had to be in the room, generally, making shushing and soothing noises for about 20 mins, but that was fine) and then would sleep through with only one waking (again about 20 mins shushing back to sleep) until 7-8am. Then she got a throat infection, then we went on a holiday, then she got a cold, and since then... well, you've read the thread. I hope your HV helps, mine is wonderful and I know I'm very lucky in that respect as many seems to be rubbish from what I've read on MN generally. I suspect she'll say 19 weeks is too little for CC (and each to their own but I think personally I would wait a bit too - my DD is 33 weeks), but I hope she has other useful advice. It may well be just a phase (that's always what we hope!). Have you seen this thread?

Things rumble on much the same in my camp - after a few brief wakings before midnight, DD slept through until 6am in her cot!! But the night before she woke up at 9.30pm and screamed the house down for 1 hour and 8 minutes. I know the precise length of time because it was more or less exactly the amount of time I was out for a drink with a friend to get some time out of the house. When I put my key in the lock I heard the screeching straight away - DD had woken up just after I left and when I went up to DH and asked how long she'd been like that, that was his (bitter) response. Later, after she'd gone to sleep again, he actually sobbed with all the stress and upset. He's 45. Seeing a grown man sobbing like that was just awful. And yet last night, as I've said, she was fine...

"after a few brief wakings before midnight, DD slept through until 6am in her cot!!" - last night, that is. She doesn't do that every night, unfortunately.