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My baby is 11 months and never has slept through the night....

134 replies

Amani · 07/11/2008 09:50

DD2 is nearly 11 months and still does not sleep through the night. She is a very fussy eater (may be that's the reason). Anyhow I put her to sleep around 8pm, then she wakes every 2-2.5 hrs - just for me to pat her back to sleep - then she goes back to sleep and then around 3-4am ish for a feed.

Is there anyone else out there in whose baby has never slept through the night? I've tried controlled crying, but I just dont have the heart to hear her crying for ages (plus I am working and all I think about in the middle of the night is the easiest option to get her to sleep again i.e milk/patting)

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
Amani · 12/11/2008 15:47

Wish I could get the root of why she wakes up every 2-2.5 hrs....???

OP posts:
pudding25 · 12/11/2008 19:15

Amani -does she by any chance have a dummy? If she does, that could be an explanation of the constant wakings.

Unfortunately, greenmonkies is usually aggressive in her posts, in particular if anyone dares to avert from attachement parenting, which in her eyes, is the only way to parent a child.

domesticslattern · 12/11/2008 20:45

Couldn't let it pass greenmonkies, that is a really horrible thing to say. You might think that but there are ways of saying it. That really puts me off all your other posts: I had thought more highly of you before.

Hugs to Amani. It's bloody awful and don't feel that you're the only one put off the PN threads because everyone else seems to be doing well.

I do let my DD (similar age) cry for five minutes or so: she can settle herself more often than I expected. I think rushing in sometimes woke her up. She also has a comforter (teddy which I originally slept with so it smells of mummy) which she adores.

GreenMonkies · 12/11/2008 21:48

Why is honesty so bad?

This was a thread full of sympathy and support reassuring the OP that her DC's sleep (or lack of it) was normal and would not last forever, and then redybrek bounced in all smug and smart-arsed with her CC crap and I dare to be blunt about what CC actually does to a baby and I am the bad one.

For those who ask me how to deal with sleeplessness, my solution has always been to offer comfort and security to my children, be it in their own bed or in ours. Like Martin Samuel (in the second link I posted) I believe that as I chose to have my children it is up to me to care for them, not to break their trust and hope just because I am a bit tired. No one likes broken sleep, but it comes with the territory of parenting, I personally don't like changing smelly nappies, but you'd all be outraged if I said I left my babies in thier own shit because I didn't want to have to change them. The difference between the two is that a baby left in a dirty nappy will get hideous infected nappy rash, but you can't see the damage that CC does to a baby.

I'm not a martyr, I'm a mother. And I am honest. I am sick and tired of seeing these "happy fluffy" posts about CC and how wonderful it is, well it's not. The effects of this kind of "sleep training" are documented, and quite honestly, no matter how you dress it up, and how often you go in and pat their back or say "shh shh there there" you are still effectively leaving them to cry themselves to sleep. CC does work, it works by teaching your baby not to bother crying because once they have been put to bed no-one will come. I think it's a disgusting and shocking thing to do to a baby.

I wouldn't treat an animal with so little humanity and empathy, I don't know how any one can do it to thier own baby.

DaddyJ · 12/11/2008 22:43

The effects of this kind of sleep training are indeed well-documented -
they are entirely benign. Not only does everyone sleep better (that's a given)
but the baby's mood during the day also improves.

The only drawback is that CC does not always work so it's useful for parents
to know that there are other approaches such as Attachment Parenting.
One size never fits all.

While we are on the subject of honesty, this 'damage' that CC allegedly does to a baby
any news on what it looks like, how and when it manifests itself and how many children
have been diagnosed with such CC-related ailments?

hellymelly · 12/11/2008 22:47

Mine is 18m and still doesn't sleep through.I've just trotted up to feed her actually! DD1 didn't sleep through until she had all her teeth,and then she was fine,so I think this one may be the same(and yes I am totally knackered,but happy)

GreenMonkies · 13/11/2008 07:21

DaddyJ

here

and here

and here

your evidence please??

Amani · 13/11/2008 08:44

Yikes Greenmonkey - going off the point here, but the link about the potential emotional impact on children under 2 having more than 10 hours of nursery time is scary. My DDs spend about 16 and 24 hrs a week in nursery respectively and they seem happy and settled there and I hope to god it won't have an negative effect on their behaviour.

Back onto the point, pudding25 never have given DD2 a dummy. Last night put DD to bed at 8pm, then she woke up at 10.30pm, 4am for a pat and 2am for a quick feed - which is actually a good night for me. Despite the amount of Ashtons and Parsons powder I rub on her gums before bedtime it doesn't make a difference to how well she sleeps. Considering the responses that have been put on this thread, maybe it's just DD2 nature to be a 'difficult' sleeper?

OP posts:
clemette · 13/11/2008 08:49

Amani - late to this one but just wanted to let you know we are exactly the same boat. DS is ten months, wakes every 90mins-2 hours through the night. I am also working full-time and have a DD who is 3.5. Tried a bit of CC - everyone was distressed and unhappy so i just feed him whenever he wakes as that is the quickest way we can all get back to bed.
It's rough isn't it?

cali · 13/11/2008 09:11

Have just seen this thread too, although Greenmonkey did come across slightly agressive in her 1st post, I have to agree with her with regard to CC.

My 14 month old has never slept through the night and thanks to paper thin walls in a new build house, I do not leave her to cry at night as she would wake up the whole house.

I've found that the best way to get her back to sleep is to give her a quick feed - never thought I would be BF overnight at 14 months!
If that doesn't work, then she comes into bed with me, I tried CC for one night and everybody was so tired the next again day that I thought never again.
This doesn't happen everynight, last night she woke at 1am, only needed a quick cuddle and went back to sleep until 8am.

But I would much rather give her a cuddle/feed/comfort from sleeping next to me, than having her cry hysterically in her cot.

I call her my velcro baby as she always has to be with me, she's not a PFB either.
DD1 slept from 7-7 from the age of 5 months, they are just different.

I realise that this would not be for everyone, it works for us and most importantly for me, I'm not tired the next again day.

PuzzleRocks · 13/11/2008 09:27

I have to agree with Greenmonkies later post.
DaddyJ, so the baby's mood improves? I so often hear that trotted out by parents seeking to justify their choices. DD wakes maybe once or twice a night and is fed back to sleep. You would be hard pushed to find a sunnier toddler. I know a few CC babies and toddlers and they are all grumpy and fractious at times during the day and so used to a rigidly prescribed routine that any change causes tears and tantrums.

AngeChica · 13/11/2008 09:52

Just wanted to say Hi Amani .

I can't hack sleep deprivation and weaned DS off the breast at 5 months mainly due to that, however he has 3 square meals a day and still not an excellent sleeper so it doesn't follow, but I knew that . Just when I think we have cracked it, it's often back to square one so I try something else.

From 5 months gave dream FF at about 11. He would go through to 6, this lasted a while, but I cut out the night feed as I am sure he can now go all night without it (he is nearly 10 months, remains on the 98 centile as he as been since birth, eats and drinks lots in the day and I do worry about overfeeding him TBH).

Now he wakes up a few times for no partic reason. He will give us the odd sleep through but of course I don't because my bladder is knackered after having him!

Teething, being ill, etc. always knocks him back for weeks. I went back to work in October so I really wanted him to settle down again. We had success in training him out of having to be cuddled back to sleep. He now has gotten attached to a little comforter blankie that helps him to self- settle a lot. Basically I would sit by the cot quietly and reassure him instead of holding him. I never left him to cry.

I think now he is getting increased separation anxiety due to his age (it kicks in around now right?) Now the last 2 or 3 nights if he wakes in the night he has not been so good at settling himelf. I have been leaving him to cry for short periods of 5 mins, and then going in to reassure him as before. I suppose this is a version of CC. However when he cries there are no tears, basically it's like yelling, not sobbing. I have to repeat 2 or 3 times then the yelling peters away and he gets himself to sleep. I do not think he is crying himself to sleep. He is happy and alert all day so I really do not feel I am damaging him in any way by doing this.

domesticslattern · 13/11/2008 09:56

Left the thread last night to comfort a crying baby!

Greenmonkies yes to give your point of view, it was more the way you said it in your first post that I took issue with. We are all doing a difficult job and many MNers will not be resorting to CC because they "are a bit tired" (your words). They may have roaring PND due to sleep deprivation, they may be neglecting their other children because they are so knackered, they may be unable to work properly because they cannot see straight, it may be dangerous for them to drive, their marriage may be going down the pan etc. etc. At one point I was hallucinating for lack of sleep, and during the day I was a zombie almost unable to care for my DD, snapping at her etc. Many of us do not have partners who share the load and we are literally going mad for needing four hours straight sleep. Eight hours would be a dream.

I am lucky enough to have a baby who can often self-settle and so I have never had the agony of listening to her weep for hours steeling myself not to go in, but I would not be so quick to judge or to heap abuse on another MNer who had. I might say instead, CC might not be as great as you think RedyBrek (link to evidence), Amani have you tried x rather than such a caustic personal sarcastic attack. Just thinking of the MN philosophy which pops up each time I open MN Talk.

Anyway, I don't think this kind of debate is particularly useful to Amani's original request, so I'll bugger off now.

AngeChica · 13/11/2008 10:00

Sorry anway my point was at least if you can't get your DD to sleep uninterrupted all night you could start with trying to find a way of spending less time resettling her, that helped a lot with the tiredness at work for me. HTH x

pudding25 · 13/11/2008 10:08

Greenmonkies As I have told you before, you can find anything you want to back up anything. On another thread, I posted in response to you some research I found stating that cc was fine and helpful to all involved.

I can't be arsed reading any links you have posted because you wind me up so much but if there was one about putting children in nursery before 2 -well first of all, all the children I know who have been put in nursery before 2 have got to be the most rounded children I know. Happy, healthy content, sociable and loved.

You may be rich enough to stay at home and look after your children full time but some of us have no choice but to bring in some money and put our children in nursery in order to scrape by. I am outraged that you can post a link like this which a) I think is a pile of shite and b) could make someone who is unconfident feel really dreadful.

Children who are deprived of affection and left to cry all the time will suffer. Noone can deny that. However, if a baby is checked on regularly for a few nights, in order to give everyone -especially the baby -some well needed sleep, then there is no problem.

I have never actually needed to do controlled crying with dd (6mths). She has been in a routine from wk 1 and sleeps really well most of the time. Maybe I am lucky. Who knows what she would have done without a routine.

However, if I get to to the stage where she starts not sleeping and I end up totally miserable, unable to function and quite possbly qith PND due to sleep deprevation, then I totally beleive that doing cc for a few nights to enable her to sleep is far more beneficial to her as a) she will be happy after sleeping properly and b( much better to have a happy healthy mummy to look after you than one who is miserable and depressed.

greenmonkies - having no sleep, co-sleeping, baby wearing, tandem feeding etc etc whatever you do is great for you. Fine. Wonderful. It is not for others and it does not mean that you are right and they are wrong.

If I had to carry dd around all day, co sleep with her all night and bf 24/7, I would have ended up with PND. I have a 6 mth dd who is beautiful, totally loved and treasured and most importantly extremely happy.

greenmonkies Your views are yours. Yes, many people agree with them but many people agree with other ways too, including cc.

Sorry, long post but I cannot stand people who think their way is the only way.

pudding25 · 13/11/2008 10:09

Sorry Amani, that wasn't particularly helpful to you but I had to vent!

What is your baby's routine like during the day? How much sleep? food? etc? This coul have an impact on night sleep.

Pinkjenny · 13/11/2008 10:39

Interesting to see that Greenmonkies actually has posted NO solutions on here for the scenario I described earlier.

Amani · 13/11/2008 11:57

Pudding -
My DD2 has never been a good eater and am lucky if I get her to eat about 5 spoons. Her usual routine is:

Breakfast 9am - Breakfast (5 spoons max of whatever is on offer)
10am - milk and nap for 45 mins
Lunch 1pm - same no more than 5 spoons of whatever is on offer
2.30pm - milk and nap for 1 - 1.5 hrs
5.30pm - same no more than 5 spoons of whatever is on offer
8pm - milk
3am - milk

Usually drinks 5 ounces of milk each time.

Saw a dietician who said her low food intake is because of who she is and as a result of teething. Cant see what in the above might affect her night time sleep - would have thought with all the playing/crawling/standing she does she would be exhausted...

OP posts:
Amani · 13/11/2008 11:58

Forgot to say hi Angechia

OP posts:
AuntyJ · 13/11/2008 12:26

am

pudding25 · 13/11/2008 12:31

Was just wondering if maybe she was having too much daytime sleep and that was affecting her night sleep but it looks like she has a decent amount during the day.

I think the only way to stop her waking so much, if it is really bothering you, might be some kind of sleep training. It doesn't need to be cc. PUPD might work but can take a while.

Does she have milk when she wakes up in the morning? If not, may be an idea to get some down her then.

trixymalixy · 13/11/2008 12:38

My Ds didn't sleep through the night until he was 18 months.

Amani · 13/11/2008 12:44

Pudding - dont give her milk when she wakes up, since she doesnt eat well i'd rather fill her up on breakfast (if I can!) than milk....

OP posts:
pudding25 · 13/11/2008 13:07

I see what you mean about the milk. It looks like she is using you as a prop to get back to sleep (when you pat her back to sleep). A bit like when the dummy falls out and the baby needs it to go back to sleep. I think that is the reason why she is waking up so much. Her eating may be a factor but I think it is quite likely she is used to falling back to sleep in a certain way.

It is really hard to change habits (especially when you are exhausted). It is also horrible to hear your baby cry at all and I think we all go for the easiest option but then, that can just exacerbate the problem.

GreenMonkies · 13/11/2008 13:28

Pudding, you are so incredibley agressive, and so very ignorant.

I worked full time from when DD1 was 6 months old, she woke every 2-3 hours every night until she was 18 months, and didn't sleep through until she was about 2. I am neither rich, nor mean, nor smug, nor lacking in understanding of this scenario. I now work part time and still get woken at least once a night but as DD2 is now 2 I'm sure this will soon stop (once she has those last molars I expect).

The reason you won't read my links is because you don't want to see anything that doesn't back you up, and for evey study or report that concludes CC type sleep training to be ok there are at least 2 that say the opposite.

And both my children go to/have been in nursery, DD1 was full time between the the of 6-18 months, and then went 4 then 3 days a week until she started school last September, DD2 has been in nursery 3 days a week since she was 6 months old. I am not some smug upper-middle class SAH "Yummy-Mummy" who looks down on other mothers, I am a hard-working (I work for the NHS in Radiology, and it's bloody hard work, both physically and emotionally) dedicated mother, but no matter how dificult it is I will always put my childrens needs before my own wants. If accepting that babies and small children have short sleep cycles and regularly wake during the night and that it is my job to care for them and help them back off to sleep when this happens, until they grow out of it makes me some kind of martyr then pass me a fucking medal, but whatever else, don't make me out to be something I'm not.

You are happy to leave a baby to cry in order to "teach" it to sleep, thats your choice, no matter how inhumane, unnatural and plain wrong it is. But don't try to make me out to be wrong just to make yourself feel better.

This thread was about supporting someone with a baby that doesn't sleep through, my original response was in line with the rest;

{I think sleeping through the night is a nasty viscious myth which was created to make mums feel inadequate.

Neither of mine have slept through until they were about two, all in all I think I have had perhaps half a dozen un-broken nights in the last 5 years! And do you know what? Most of the mums I have spoken to about this will tell the same kind of tale. There are some rare babies who do sleep 8-12 hours from a young age with no intervention, but the truth is that the majority of 7-7 sleepers are only doing it because they've been left to cry in some way or another, which tells me that this kind of long sleep is not natural and not something we should feel is a failing if our babies/children don't do it.

That doesn't mean I'm not knackered or haven't contemplated trying to find some Laudenham to get mine to sleep all night, but I have (since reading several books about human development etc) stopped seeing it as a bad thing and just accepted it as something you have to deal with as a parent!}

and then a smug trite CC post changed the whole thread and I countered it, honestly, perhaps bluntly, but honestly all the same.

PinkJenny, I will, if you want to know, tell you how I would deal with your problem, I'd lie in bed with her until she went to sleep. I'd rock and cuddle and hold her if need be. Both my children are still nursed off to sleep, sometimes seperately, sometimes in tandem. DD1 slept in her own bed from about 18 months, but joined us at varying times of the night until she was about 2.5. DD2 (nearly 2.5) sleeps in a bedside cot up against our bed, and will do until I get around to getting some bunkbeds in DD1's room, which will probably be after Christmas (we are not rich you see Pudding, so we have to save for large purchases), and she will start to make the transition to her own bed at that point.

I am not the only person who has said, in one way or another, that they think CC is a horrible thing to do to a child, but, for some reason Pudding, I am the only one you have singled out. Do I touch a nerve for you?

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