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Sleep

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Sleep depriving tiny babies is cruel

207 replies

PathofLeastResistance · 06/10/2008 16:28

I need to vent on this and say stuff I feel I can never say to people?s faces.

Sleep is needed for cognitive development and sleep deprivation is used as torture yet noone teaches parents about it, except to what to do when they?re older and have established problems. Babies need an incredible amount of sleep and there are detrimental consequences for them if they don?t get what they need. Breastfeeding introduces challenges to help them get the sleep they need and I wish I?d known what I know now before I had my first baby. Many first time mothers (me included) never consider their babies sleep requirements and are never advised on it. We took our babies out wherever we went leaving them to sleep whenever they could. When they cried from tiredness we would misinterpret their cries as hunger or boredom and feed them or produce some new plastic toy to dazzle them with.
They then would develop a wide eyed exhausted gaze which would cause people to comment on how ?they?re taking it all in? when they?re actually overwhelmed.

It is amazing quite how much sleep little babies need. Before 12 weeks they need about 16 hours a day . My 9 wk old feeds about 7 times in 24 hours taking a total of 5 hours 15mins. Assuming he goes straight back to sleep after his night feeds and one day feed. Then after the other 4 day feeds he has 40mins before he needs to be asleep and as it can take 10mins to get him to sleep he can only really be awake 30 mins after a feed. Ime babies under 2 months can stay awake for a max of between 1 and 2 hours. If kept awake longer than that period they not only struggle to sleep immediately after but also struggle to sleep in the evening, for the night.

I do realise that the first few weeks when establishing breastfeeding are an exception. Until breastfeeding is established the baby by definition isn?t full and they have to work at increasing your supply. Living with a hungry baby is really hard and they inevitably can?t get the sleep they need while they need to be awake and feeding constantly or else when they sleep only briefly before waking hungry. One problem in parents? perception after these weeks is that their baby can?t sleep and we become quite used to having an awake baby for company. The baby then cluster feeds due to the sleep deprivation and the mother is left thinking there is no time between feeds to bother trying for a nap. I remember myself and other mums at the time commenting on how our babies didn?t sleep anything like the amount the books suggested (as if that was their fault ) and we would miss our babies company if they slept more during the day!

However, once breastfeeding is established we should be trying much harder to get our babies to sleep in the day. My first was unable to sleep unaided, unless exhausted, after those first 6 weeks. She needed to be rocked and have a finger to suck before she would sleep. We naively only gave her the opportunity to sleep at night. It could then take up to 3 hours of various tactics before she eventually succumbed. Demand sleeping does not work . Babies need a quiet, dark, comfortable environment and many need help getting to sleep. We shouldn?t be offering them this only at the end of the day and we shouldn?t be left to learn it the hard way.

Vent over. Carry on.

OP posts:
compo · 06/10/2008 16:32

rocking and giving them something to suck is helping them get to slep in the day though
as is pushing them for miles around town in the day to get them to sleep
far better than sticking them in a cot at regular times during the day and letting them cry themselves to sleep imo

PathofLeastResistance · 06/10/2008 16:33

Yes compo- but so many people don't help their babies to sleep at all.

OP posts:
mabanana · 06/10/2008 16:35

Yes, so much nicer to let babies cry until they are sick and full of stress hormones than take them for a walk all tucked up warm
How ever did human beings manage before cots and darkened rooms eh?

Bluebutterfly · 06/10/2008 16:36

It sounds like this sleep thing has been a big issue for you, sorry if you feel stressed about it!

Of course babies need to sleep A LOT. A good book to help normalise this is The Secrets of the Baby Whisperer where she discusses a normal patter of feed, "play", sleep, on a cyclical pattern every 2-3 hours for the first months of your baby's life. Breastfeeding should not in any way interfere with your baby sleeping! They should wake themselves for feeding (because they need food!) and will probably need to sleep shortly afterwards until the next round of feeding begins. Babies are very good at letting you know if they are hungry, wet or tired - 3 things that happen repeatedly everyday in their early lives!

ajm200 · 06/10/2008 16:37

Maybe I was one of the lucky ones.

I was told by my mother and the MW to feed and change my first baby, give him a short cuddle so that he didn't go to bed asleep and put him down to sleep. He spent most of his first few weeks in a carrycot in the front room and got loads of sleep.

We started going out and about when he was about 4 months old and he still slept a lot of the time in his carrycot

PathofLeastResistance · 06/10/2008 16:38

Why are you starting an argument about how they get to sleep? My point is about helping to get them to sleep, which ever way they like, more often than just in the evening before you want to go to bed yourself.

OP posts:
belgo · 06/10/2008 16:38

breastfeeding was a great way to get my babies to sleep.

mabanana · 06/10/2008 16:39

I have to say, I hated that bloody Baby Whisperer. I could never work out how those 45segments were supposed to add up to a day, and what to do when the baby slept more than 45minutes. HOrribly stressful for a clueless new parent. Luckily it's all a blur now...
However, I am a huge fan of babies sleeping in prams. Motion naturally soothes and comforts tiny babies, and is a totally natural way to get them to sleep around the world.

Bluebutterfly · 06/10/2008 16:39

Baby slings are also great while they are little, being close to your body while you are up and about enables the baby to soothe itself to sleep quite easily. Very helpful if you have older children and need to be active but want to be able to ensure baby gets lots of food and sleep and one-to-one contact!

OrmIrian · 06/10/2008 16:39

I don't think that my babies had any problems with 'demand sleeping'. They seemed to do a hell of a lot of it. Regardless of the time or the venue.

Becky77 · 06/10/2008 16:40

The two aren't mutually exclusive though. News Flash You can put a baby down in a cot in a darkened room without them crying and guess what, they sleep for longer... So in the long run teaching them this skill is kinder. People don't darken the rooms to be cruel... they do it to help their DC sleep

CoteDAzur · 06/10/2008 16:40

Wow. You are arguably the tightest wound person I have encountered in the past decade, and that is against some tough competition.

MoonlightMcKenzie · 06/10/2008 16:41

PathofLeastResistance

Eh?

Could you please summarise your point?

Ta!

PathofLeastResistance · 06/10/2008 16:41

I did try the baby whisperer and found it helped to an extent but have since realised that sometimes in the day mine need to go straight back to sleep after a feed. If I let them get too awake when they are yawning during a feed we go back to having screamy evenings.

OP posts:
belgo · 06/10/2008 16:42

I do actually think that most new parents are fairly desperate to get their babies to sleep as much as possible, I know I was.

Bluebutterfly · 06/10/2008 16:42

mabanana - i never really used the baby whisperer as a "method", but did find her useful for a general guide as to how often they need to sleep and how to encourage as much as possible. I found it helpful, but to each their own of course.

Olihan · 06/10/2008 16:43

I don't get what you're saying.

Do you think there are people who don't put their babies to sleep in the day?

PathofLeastResistance · 06/10/2008 16:43

summary - demand sleeping doesn't work. Any one not helping their babies get sleep is negligent and it's bad that we get no advice on it as new mothers.

OP posts:
Becky77 · 06/10/2008 16:43

Forget routines... the only thing you need to remember is that they'll need feeding roughly every 3 hours and need to sleep roughly 2 hours after they've woken up... Watch them for signs of both and let them set their own routine... which no doubt they'll changed every couple of weeks.

OrmIrian · 06/10/2008 16:44

Oh, neglectful. I see.

compo · 06/10/2008 16:45

'so many people don't help their babies to sleep at all. '

who are these people? everyone I know is always trying to get newborns to sleep whether it is with cuddling, pushing, rocking, sucking. You sound like a particular situation has really bugged you

PathofLeastResistance · 06/10/2008 16:45

There are loads of people who leave their babies to sleep wherever and whenever meaning - only when they collapse from exhaustion.

If we said an average adult is happiest having 16 hours between sleeps. Imagine being kept in a bright stimulating environment for twice your happy interval, e.g. 32 hours. Most of us would spend the first 16 hours behaving happily, then start snacking overnight before collapsing in a heap when we just couldn?t take any more. That is what many of us end up doing to our babies. Ime babies who can happily go a fair time between feeds overnight and in the morning will start cluster feeding as they day goes on because they are missing their sleep. It is difficult to know when to feel confident enough in your breastfeeding to be able to concentrate on getting your baby the sleep he/she needs. The cluster feeding that occurs during sleep deprivation confounds that by giving the impression that baby can?t go any longer between feeds. I don?t have an answer as to how a new mum can feel confident that it is working and that every cry isn?t about hunger any more.

OP posts:
mabanana · 06/10/2008 16:45

Well, maybe some tiny babies just go to sleep if you put them down in a darkened room - but none of them have ever lived in My house! I found a regular daytime nap a boon when they were older, but let's not kid ourselves that sleeping in a cot in a darkened room is some kind of universal essential for babies. It isn't.

compo · 06/10/2008 16:45

new mothers are constantly given advice on how to get babies to sleep

Olihan · 06/10/2008 16:45

Demand sleeping does work, though. You watch them to see when they're tired then you do whatever you need to do to get them to sleep. What's the issue?

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