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Sleep depriving tiny babies is cruel

207 replies

PathofLeastResistance · 06/10/2008 16:28

I need to vent on this and say stuff I feel I can never say to people?s faces.

Sleep is needed for cognitive development and sleep deprivation is used as torture yet noone teaches parents about it, except to what to do when they?re older and have established problems. Babies need an incredible amount of sleep and there are detrimental consequences for them if they don?t get what they need. Breastfeeding introduces challenges to help them get the sleep they need and I wish I?d known what I know now before I had my first baby. Many first time mothers (me included) never consider their babies sleep requirements and are never advised on it. We took our babies out wherever we went leaving them to sleep whenever they could. When they cried from tiredness we would misinterpret their cries as hunger or boredom and feed them or produce some new plastic toy to dazzle them with.
They then would develop a wide eyed exhausted gaze which would cause people to comment on how ?they?re taking it all in? when they?re actually overwhelmed.

It is amazing quite how much sleep little babies need. Before 12 weeks they need about 16 hours a day . My 9 wk old feeds about 7 times in 24 hours taking a total of 5 hours 15mins. Assuming he goes straight back to sleep after his night feeds and one day feed. Then after the other 4 day feeds he has 40mins before he needs to be asleep and as it can take 10mins to get him to sleep he can only really be awake 30 mins after a feed. Ime babies under 2 months can stay awake for a max of between 1 and 2 hours. If kept awake longer than that period they not only struggle to sleep immediately after but also struggle to sleep in the evening, for the night.

I do realise that the first few weeks when establishing breastfeeding are an exception. Until breastfeeding is established the baby by definition isn?t full and they have to work at increasing your supply. Living with a hungry baby is really hard and they inevitably can?t get the sleep they need while they need to be awake and feeding constantly or else when they sleep only briefly before waking hungry. One problem in parents? perception after these weeks is that their baby can?t sleep and we become quite used to having an awake baby for company. The baby then cluster feeds due to the sleep deprivation and the mother is left thinking there is no time between feeds to bother trying for a nap. I remember myself and other mums at the time commenting on how our babies didn?t sleep anything like the amount the books suggested (as if that was their fault ) and we would miss our babies company if they slept more during the day!

However, once breastfeeding is established we should be trying much harder to get our babies to sleep in the day. My first was unable to sleep unaided, unless exhausted, after those first 6 weeks. She needed to be rocked and have a finger to suck before she would sleep. We naively only gave her the opportunity to sleep at night. It could then take up to 3 hours of various tactics before she eventually succumbed. Demand sleeping does not work . Babies need a quiet, dark, comfortable environment and many need help getting to sleep. We shouldn?t be offering them this only at the end of the day and we shouldn?t be left to learn it the hard way.

Vent over. Carry on.

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mabanana · 06/10/2008 17:45

What do you think people in rural Africa and Asiaa do with their babies? Do you think those babies are all neglected by cruel parents? Because they sure as hell aren't sleeping by themselves in cots in darkened rooms.

MOonlight, Path has three under four including two babies - I suspect that is why she is sleep obsessed!

FAQ · 06/10/2008 17:46

oh god I@m glad I never did a spreadsheet for DS1 - I would have driven myself even more insane - I think at his best he would have maybe 8hrs a day - perhaps 10 if I could get out and take him for a walk in his pram........

PathofLeastResistance · 06/10/2008 17:46

MoonlightMcKenzie - I care about it partly because I feel I have only just got it right with my 3rd child. But mainly because of seeing a "colicky" baby cry its heart out for 2 hours because it had been kept up to long. Didn't feel I could comment face to face - people get so wound up!

OP posts:
Weegle · 06/10/2008 17:50

This thread is bloody weird.

littlelapin · 06/10/2008 17:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

FAQ · 06/10/2008 17:50

Path - I thought I had it totally sorted with DS2 - had 2 long naps a day, slept through of his own accord at 3 weeks own........ then 3yrs later DS3 came along.............

and I realised that actually I didn't have a frigging clue

MoonlightMcKenzie · 06/10/2008 17:54

Ah, okay, my psychological assessment is that path needs to feel a sense of 'control' for own sanity!

At the risk of pissing off EVERYONE I'd be interested to know whether you ff or bf path and whether you have a pretty responsible 'high-powered' job.

IME people that are used to 'control' in their jobs, often ff to be able to enter quantities on their spreadsheet alongside the sleep spreadsheet.

littlelapin · 06/10/2008 17:55

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MoonlightMcKenzie · 06/10/2008 17:56

I've never heard of demand sleeping either, but wish with all my heart that adults could have a piece of it!

OrmIrian · 06/10/2008 17:56

Now sticking pins into a baby to stop it sleeping would be cruel. V v cruel! Generally I get the feeling that in most cases it's the baby that sleep deprives the parents.

littlelapin · 06/10/2008 17:57

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MoonlightMcKenzie · 06/10/2008 17:57

A doctor! I'm pretty thick, but is that 'high powered'?

FAQ · 06/10/2008 17:58

aha ll - that may explain something - I'll never forget taking DS1 to the doctors when he was 2 weeks old - he had laryngitis - the doctor asked me "is he sleeping well at night".....I looked at him oddly and said no - and he was quite concerned about this non-sleeping laryngitis suffering 2 week old

To his credit when DS1 had bronchiolitis a few months later and I ended up seeing him as the doctor doing the emergency appointments he was FANTASTIC and extremely reassuring to me - so I let him off for his wonderful comments several months earlier

littlelapin · 06/10/2008 18:01

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Tiggiwinkle · 06/10/2008 18:01

What a strange thread...

MoonlightMcKenzie · 06/10/2008 18:02

My 33yr old friends doctor told him to take calpol when he presented with chicken pox.

Perhaps that was path when going through one of her extreme sleep-deprived days.

Peachy · 06/10/2008 18:04

Now sticking pins into a baby to stop it sleeping would be cruel.'

Really????

So is that why ds1 sleeps so badly thn- the pin mattress I bought him. who'd have known?

weirdy thread. lots of those today

MoonlightMcKenzie · 06/10/2008 18:04

Path How do you know that the baby was crying due to sleep deprivation?

littlelapin · 06/10/2008 18:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Peachy · 06/10/2008 18:07

That's the bugger LL, been costing me a fortune in bedlinen though....

mabanana · 06/10/2008 18:07

of course babies get tired, and yes, it's hard to know the difference between tired and hungry in the early days, and that tired babies cry, but really, in the end it all comes out in the wash.

Lurkinaround · 06/10/2008 18:09

If I'm reading your posts correctly you also seem to be saying that BF, and especially cluster feeding, stops the baby from sleeping because they get hungry and they only cluster feed because they're tired?

If so, you're talking bollocks really. But then sleep deprivation can do that to you.

Does it matter when or where they sleep as long as they sleep? And how much sleep 'should' babies have bearing in mind that each baby is different?

hatrick · 06/10/2008 18:30

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cockles · 06/10/2008 18:37

You would have to do an absolute minimum of research / reading basic baby stuff to figure out that babies need a lot of sleep. It's hardly off the wall. And breastfeeding is much less of a challenge to it (what a weird idea - breastfeeding is the main way I get my child to sleep in the first place! Yes, I am a failed baby whisperer ) than the general over-stimulation of modern life - too much light and noise and tv. Slings + quiet life is a good route for most babies to sleep wherever they are - going out is neither here nor there.

PathofLeastResistance · 08/10/2008 20:11

I am still reeling slightly from the tirade f abuse I received on here for stating two points which I don't think are controversial

  1. that babies can only stay awake a short time without getting over tired and
  2. that they sleep better in the dark.

It's sad that by mentioning anything about dark rooms everyone sprang on me as if on a Gina Ford witch hunt. It is even sadder that there are essentially only two books that address the sleep needs of babies and once people have been turned off them for various reasons they become irrational about addressing sleep as an issue.

I regret saying "demand sleeping" doesn't work instead of saying "sleep where you drop" sleeping doesn't work. When babies are old enough to rub their eyes or lie down and suck their thumbs to show they are tired they seem to get more respect and are allowed to nap - usually in dark rooms. When they are too young to use body language in that way they often get ignored despite trying to demand sleep by yawning etc.

I have no issues whatsoever with how people get their babies to sleep only how often. Yes all babies are different but their sleep needs are not that dissimilar.

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