Sleep depriving tiny babies is cruel

[PathofLeastResistance]

I need to vent on this and say stuff I feel I can never say to people?s faces.

Sleep is needed for cognitive development and sleep deprivation is used as torture yet noone teaches parents about it, except to what to do when they?re older and have established problems. Babies need an incredible amount of sleep and there are detrimental consequences for them if they don?t get what they need. Breastfeeding introduces challenges to help them get the sleep they need and I wish I?d known what I know now before I had my first baby. Many first time mothers (me included) never consider their babies sleep requirements and are never advised on it. We took our babies out wherever we went leaving them to sleep whenever they could. When they cried from tiredness we would misinterpret their cries as hunger or boredom and feed them or produce some new plastic toy to dazzle them with.
They then would develop a wide eyed exhausted gaze which would cause people to comment on how ?they?re taking it all in? when they?re actually overwhelmed.

It is amazing quite how much sleep little babies need. Before 12 weeks they need about 16 hours a day . My 9 wk old feeds about 7 times in 24 hours taking a total of 5 hours 15mins. Assuming he goes straight back to sleep after his night feeds and one day feed. Then after the other 4 day feeds he has 40mins before he needs to be asleep and as it can take 10mins to get him to sleep he can only really be awake 30 mins after a feed. Ime babies under 2 months can stay awake for a max of between 1 and 2 hours. If kept awake longer than that period they not only struggle to sleep immediately after but also struggle to sleep in the evening, for the night.

I do realise that the first few weeks when establishing breastfeeding are an exception. Until breastfeeding is established the baby by definition isn?t full and they have to work at increasing your supply. Living with a hungry baby is really hard and they inevitably can?t get the sleep they need while they need to be awake and feeding constantly or else when they sleep only briefly before waking hungry. One problem in parents? perception after these weeks is that their baby can?t sleep and we become quite used to having an awake baby for company. The baby then cluster feeds due to the sleep deprivation and the mother is left thinking there is no time between feeds to bother trying for a nap. I remember myself and other mums at the time commenting on how our babies didn?t sleep anything like the amount the books suggested (as if that was their fault ) and we would miss our babies company if they slept more during the day!

However, once breastfeeding is established we should be trying much harder to get our babies to sleep in the day. My first was unable to sleep unaided, unless exhausted, after those first 6 weeks. She needed to be rocked and have a finger to suck before she would sleep. We naively only gave her the opportunity to sleep at night. It could then take up to 3 hours of various tactics before she eventually succumbed. Demand sleeping does not work . Babies need a quiet, dark, comfortable environment and many need help getting to sleep. We shouldn?t be offering them this only at the end of the day and we shouldn?t be left to learn it the hard way.

Vent over. Carry on.

Well how many human beings do you know who can go to sleep before they are tired enough to go to sleep? All this talk of "signals" - my DS's signals as a newborn consisted of screaming and, er, that's it. Whether he wanted boob, sleep, changing, playing with, cuddling ,putting down, he screamed. All anyone can do is run through the checklist - nappy? tired? feed? wind? - and hope for the best. Unless you can explain a fail safe manner of "catching the moment" to me. Because I never found one.

I think you uust have swallowed The Baby Whisperer whole, no wonder you're so tense.

You blame HCP - well, you are one, what are you doing about it?

Hmm not sure if any babies I have ever heard of just put up with being tired. I think you are assuming that if the parent hasn't actually done anything to encourage sleep and the baby randomly nods off, the said baby has crashed due to exhaustion.

Erm NO all babies are different, my dd was a nightmare sleeper and pfb to boot, she could be awake for 6 hour stretches in the evenings. We tried everything, rocking, walks, darkened rooms etc. She had colic, nothing to be done about it.

I think all of the mothers who have sat stock still on the sofa for 2 hours dying for a wee and afraid to move for fear of waking a light sleeper will protest your claims of "trying harder to get babies to sleep".

oh FGS Path - don't tell me that I didn't pay attention to his sleep - how I could bloody not when on his first night after he was born he wouldn't bloody sleep, they (mw's) took him to the "nursery" (actually the store/teaching room) for me to try and get him to sleep (after he'd been feeding constantly for hours - and I'd had a CS) they brought him back 15 minutes later and tucked him in bed with me (he was "too loud and disturbing the other babies - all newborns ".

I spent every bloody minute for 6 months trying to get him to sleep, I never ONCE tried to keep him awake - I was too darned sleep deprived to care about seeing him awake I just wanted (needed) him to sleep. In fact I'd go as far to say as I didn't want to see him awake!!!

Oh and DS3 is 16 months not a tiny baby anymore , and generally in a settled routine (well actually a "to the letter" routine of his own accord) - today was different as I discovered (when DS1 got home from school) that he'd been woken up 1 1/2hrs earlier. Him whinging at that time in the morning isn't unusual at the moment (he's still adjusting to having neither of his older brothers around to play with). I took it to be the "normal" "I'm missing my brothers " complaints - especially when he then settled happily playing with his toys and munching crap food. It was only when I turned round to see a cute little bum stuck up in the air I realised he was actually tired. (and the reason for that became apparent later).

Path - Georgimama wasn't "lucky" at all - a baby that will fall asleep anywhere/sleep through anything is easily achieved if you don't get into the habit of tiptoeing around when they're sleeping as newborns (I frequently rocked DS3 to sleep in his pushchair with my left hand, while belting out hymns on the organ with my right hand and feet - with the congregation adding to the noise levels).

He was only like that for about the first 6 weeks unfortunately though, after that he wouldn't sleep through the evenings - he would go to sleep, anywhere, anytime, he just wouldn't stay asleep.

FAQ is right though, tiptoeing around a newborn baby is useless.

As a mum I will do what I feel is right for me, my baby and my situation, thanks.

There is no one way that is right when it comes to looking after babies, including how when and where they sleep. To think there is, and that your way is the right way, is very silly.

actually I think I may hide this thread now

"If you pay no attention to their sleep then they get overtired - scream because they are tired and are really hard to get to sleep."

Has actually upset me. I don't take kindly to the suggestion that i was paying no attention to my DS1's sleep and letting him get overtired as a result

FAQ, really, don't be upset by it. Everyone else on this thread, and probably in the whole world, knows that we are normal and babies scream. Only the OP seems to think that this is avoidable and constitutes neglect on the part of the parents.

I'm just curious as to how the OP has actually been in all our houses and watched us "neglecting" our children.

Eh? Little babies do sleep anywhere. Movement aids sleep and so taking them out helps.
I don't get your rant, did you do it very badly?
Sleeping and what a baby needs are a little innate, dss 1 & 2 both slept well from day one, no wind problems, no feeding problems just slept. DD1 was a nightmare, she was only happy with a breast in her mouth.

FAQ, don't worry we all do whatever gets us through the night! Personally I co-slept or I would have killed at least one of my children, probably my screaming baby!

Path, my first two dcs just closed their eyes when they were tired and slept... rarely cried in their first twelve months. It was a miracle, like they were designed to shut their eyes and go to sleep because they were tired. Anyone would think we have thousands of years of evolution behind us to give us this insight into a baby sleeping!!

oh I did "co-sleep" - well he slept in the bed next to me, attached to the breast, I couldn't move, not even roll onto my back, anything really, or he'd wake up. He would then wake and feed for an hour or so. Then drift off to sleep. We would repeat ad nausea um all night, then in the day I had to sit and hold him while he slept (or brave the weather for 1-2hrs - he was a September baby to take him for a walk in his pram where at least I would be able to have my hand free).

Looking back I think if there were enough minutes where I didn't have to be holding him/lying next to him for those first 6 months they would barely add to up to one or two days. I couldn't put him down at all - was awful

Twelve - that was DS2 (still is actually - he loves his sleep)

Grrr, damn September!! My dd was September too. She co-slept (the only one of my dcs) until she was 8 months, she screamed in the car even on long journeys, she cried in the pram (except for half an hour or more walks) she even cried just holding her, breast or scream! Someone has suggested that she may have had acid reflux which meant she was in constant discomfort? Next baby arriving on 3/11 and so I will be getting all checked if there is any unrest!

Oh and will be using blackout blinds 24 hour a day, I'll tell the boys there's a blitz!

funny I wondered very recently (just a few weeks ago when I was reading a thread here on MN) if DS had had reflux of some description. It would have accounted for his constant crying. exH used to come home from work and I would fling (well not quite literally) a screaming baby into his arms, he would then change his nappy/give him a cuddle (all while he continued to scream) etc before handing him back for another feed - it was my only respite.

Capri - yes that's what finally solved it for us too - we did CC at 6 months, his own cot, his own room. That first night he slept through (once he finally fell asleep), 2nd night he cried for a much shorter time and then slept through, 3rd night was 10 minutes (which he did for about 3 weeks - and then suddenly it was 5 seconds as we walked out the door.

The difference for him and me was remarkable - he suddenly became much happier, I could put him down, I was happier (although we did it at the weekend and a friend saw me on the monday and said "oh dear I take it the CC didn't go well"........apparently I looked absolutely knackered - I@d had more sleep in that weekend than I'd had in 6 months lol)

Path, how do you adhere to SIDS guidelines if you are advocating leaving your baby in a cot in a darkened room for all naps?

This thread is very odd, I think all parents would love to catch the "sleep window" everytime but real life gets in the way of obsessively watching my child 24/7. Most of the time I catch her when she is getting tired and put her down, sometimes I don't. The end result in both scenarios is her going to sleep in a matter of minutes, either way.

This is like the people who say breastfeeding is personal and should be done in private because it's such a special moment between you and your baby.

Well, yes, sometimes. But other times the older children need to get to school, the supermarket needs visiting, the car needs servicing, the bus needs catching, the life needs living.

Where possible, give your child quality experiences. Where impossible, feed 'em, keep 'em warm and love 'em.

Whayt a vaguely woolly op. You're on a hiding to nothing. Hardly anyone will have the slightest clue what you are on about.