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Sleep depriving tiny babies is cruel

207 replies

PathofLeastResistance · 06/10/2008 16:28

I need to vent on this and say stuff I feel I can never say to people?s faces.

Sleep is needed for cognitive development and sleep deprivation is used as torture yet noone teaches parents about it, except to what to do when they?re older and have established problems. Babies need an incredible amount of sleep and there are detrimental consequences for them if they don?t get what they need. Breastfeeding introduces challenges to help them get the sleep they need and I wish I?d known what I know now before I had my first baby. Many first time mothers (me included) never consider their babies sleep requirements and are never advised on it. We took our babies out wherever we went leaving them to sleep whenever they could. When they cried from tiredness we would misinterpret their cries as hunger or boredom and feed them or produce some new plastic toy to dazzle them with.
They then would develop a wide eyed exhausted gaze which would cause people to comment on how ?they?re taking it all in? when they?re actually overwhelmed.

It is amazing quite how much sleep little babies need. Before 12 weeks they need about 16 hours a day . My 9 wk old feeds about 7 times in 24 hours taking a total of 5 hours 15mins. Assuming he goes straight back to sleep after his night feeds and one day feed. Then after the other 4 day feeds he has 40mins before he needs to be asleep and as it can take 10mins to get him to sleep he can only really be awake 30 mins after a feed. Ime babies under 2 months can stay awake for a max of between 1 and 2 hours. If kept awake longer than that period they not only struggle to sleep immediately after but also struggle to sleep in the evening, for the night.

I do realise that the first few weeks when establishing breastfeeding are an exception. Until breastfeeding is established the baby by definition isn?t full and they have to work at increasing your supply. Living with a hungry baby is really hard and they inevitably can?t get the sleep they need while they need to be awake and feeding constantly or else when they sleep only briefly before waking hungry. One problem in parents? perception after these weeks is that their baby can?t sleep and we become quite used to having an awake baby for company. The baby then cluster feeds due to the sleep deprivation and the mother is left thinking there is no time between feeds to bother trying for a nap. I remember myself and other mums at the time commenting on how our babies didn?t sleep anything like the amount the books suggested (as if that was their fault ) and we would miss our babies company if they slept more during the day!

However, once breastfeeding is established we should be trying much harder to get our babies to sleep in the day. My first was unable to sleep unaided, unless exhausted, after those first 6 weeks. She needed to be rocked and have a finger to suck before she would sleep. We naively only gave her the opportunity to sleep at night. It could then take up to 3 hours of various tactics before she eventually succumbed. Demand sleeping does not work . Babies need a quiet, dark, comfortable environment and many need help getting to sleep. We shouldn?t be offering them this only at the end of the day and we shouldn?t be left to learn it the hard way.

Vent over. Carry on.

OP posts:
compo · 06/10/2008 16:46

maybe you had a bad experience wiht a particular hv or midwife? didn't anyone tell you that your newborn needed to sleep?????

PathofLeastResistance · 06/10/2008 16:46

Without help they will still sleep but only once they are so tired they have no energy left to stay awake. Some babies manage to take it in their stride to start with but as they get older they are less able to cope without sleep and may end up having evenings full of crying due to being overtired. Eventually they develop means of showing tiredness which parents can easily interpret such as eye rubbing along with yawning, and the parents come to realise they need daytime sleep. Prior to that the only way of knowing they are tired is by keeping an eye on how long they have been awake and making sure they are in bed being helped to sleep as soon as they yawn.

OP posts:
MoonlightMcKenzie · 06/10/2008 16:46

oh! Thanks!

Now I know for sure that I absolutely don't agree with you. Neither of my LOs have ever needed help getting to sleep. Sleeping isn't what I would call a skill that needs to be taught. Other mammals aren't. Tain't natural I tell ya!!!

mabanana · 06/10/2008 16:47

Neglectful
Yeah, because nobody I ever met ever tried to get their baby to sleep double

Olihan · 06/10/2008 16:47

Is anyone else finding this thread really odd?

MrsMattie · 06/10/2008 16:48

Most parents of babies that I know want their children to sleep more than anything else in the world

mabanana · 06/10/2008 16:48

You are nuts. Do you think in all of human history parents were neglectful because cots and blackout blinds hadn't been invented?

compo · 06/10/2008 16:48

do you really think you were the first person to come up with your post of 16:46:40

princessglitter · 06/10/2008 16:48

Are you suggesting that demand-led parenting is cruel?

My dd2 doesn't have a cot (she sleeps with us) is breastfed on demand and sleeps in her sling or in a bouncer chair. She gets plenty of sleep, thank you and is extremely happy and content.

Just because something works for you please don't assume we should all follow the same model.

monkeymonkeymonkey · 06/10/2008 16:48

How bizzare.

What next? Feed your baby from time to time, change the babies nappy?

PinkTulips · 06/10/2008 16:49

both mine slept better while out and about

dd was awful at settling herself and in some ways the more you tried to 'help' her to sleep the worse she got. yet if we were out she'd sleep from the second we left the house til hours after we got home.

ds wasn't as awkward but he still slept much better on the move.

if your bf-ing surely they just fall asleep at the boobs when they're tired anyway?

i think modern mothers are relying too heavily on props and routines to get their babies to sleep when the most natural way is simply for the baby to be close to mom 24/7 and to feed and sleep on it's own terms. i used to love traipsing around with ds in his sling snoozing away while dd and i got on with life. felt so sorry for the moms who had to keep running home for naps as their babies could only sleep in their cots in a dark room.

PathofLeastResistance · 06/10/2008 16:49

I don't have a problem with babies sleeping in slings or prams just the total amount they're getting and not leaving it until they are zombied before trying.

OP posts:
bronze · 06/10/2008 16:50

Anyone know any parents who were trying to stop their babies sleeping? I know I was desperate for mine to do so.

Bluebutterfly · 06/10/2008 16:50

Surely most people learn quite quickly to guage when their baby is getting tired (ie has eaten, has been changed, has maybe been alert for a period)

I think that even if people wanted to deprive their baby of sleep (and I am not sure that they do) it is almost impossible to do so because babies will eventually just go to sleep! 16 hours is also an average, some need a little less, some need a little more. Even so, I think that as along as you feel that your baby is getting fairly frequent bursts of sleep throughout the day and at night, then it is unlikely that they are suffering from tortuous sleep deprivation. (Their parents might be, but that is a different story)

monkeymonkeymonkey · 06/10/2008 16:50

Strange thing to try and start a fight about.

PathofLeastResistance · 06/10/2008 16:51

HOw much is plenty?

OP posts:
CoteDAzur · 06/10/2008 16:54

Did you really need to be told that babies need to sleep?

And have you ever met a parent who doesn't pray her baby will sleep longer and more often than he does???

princessglitter · 06/10/2008 16:55

I don't time how long my dd sleeps for, but I know her well enough to know if she is tired or not, as I'm sure most parents do.

We don't really have a routine, so it would seem totally bizarre to time her naps precisely. She normally has a breastfeed when sleepy and falls asleep on the boob. I suppose you think that's a bad habit too?

She's 1 btw.

LucyJones · 06/10/2008 16:56

you sound the type of persaon to put sleep and feeds on a spreadsheet Lighten up, they all get their in the end....

luckylady74 · 06/10/2008 16:56

I don't feel as stongly as you about it, but I do know what you mean Path. I do know people that wait until the child's exhausted, but I don't think it's cruel - just a bit illogical. I enjoyed routine and so did my babies - no cc, but dark rooms every afternoon which ever house we were in. But babies all around the world are brought up in veryh different ways and I really don't think it's the end of the world.
It is irritating when friends moan yet seem to be doing the wrong thing, but then life's like that - good that you have mnet to vent on.
People are really going to jump on you about this because first motherhood is such an insecure time for many and it will feel like a personal attack for some.

Bluebutterfly · 06/10/2008 16:59

Parenting is a learned skill that we are all perfecting, all of the time, but none of us will ever be perfect. Most babies develop into children and then adults perfectly capable of getting enough sleep and I am not sure that there is any evidence that the effects of failing to rock your baby to sleep on the odd occasion has any long-term detrimental effects.

My son is almost 4 and 4 year olds need enough sleep for their age too and I try to ensure he gets it! Maybe I have forgotten some of the sleep issues with a newborn, but I have to say I am not really sure what you are trying to say, or WHY, Path.

Most people seem to agree that babies need a lot of sleep. We all have different methods for trying to acheive happy healthy well rested babies, but we agree in principle that sleep is extremely important. Maybe you have some "one-size-fits-all" answer, but I doubt it.

This thread is making me sleepy (or tortured?)now, so I will leave you to it...

MoonlightMcKenzie · 06/10/2008 17:00

PMSL

OP: I would be interested to know the reasons and basis (dare I say 'evidence')for your claims.

PathofLeastResistance · 06/10/2008 17:01

I honestly don't have a problem with how you get them to sleep - princessglitter - just the total amount of sleep they're getting.

OP posts:
MoonlightMcKenzie · 06/10/2008 17:03

I would also like to know why you think many babies 'aren't' getting enough sleep.

PathofLeastResistance · 06/10/2008 17:08

How to get them to sleep - yes - how often to - no.

OP posts: