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Sleep depriving tiny babies is cruel

207 replies

PathofLeastResistance · 06/10/2008 16:28

I need to vent on this and say stuff I feel I can never say to people?s faces.

Sleep is needed for cognitive development and sleep deprivation is used as torture yet noone teaches parents about it, except to what to do when they?re older and have established problems. Babies need an incredible amount of sleep and there are detrimental consequences for them if they don?t get what they need. Breastfeeding introduces challenges to help them get the sleep they need and I wish I?d known what I know now before I had my first baby. Many first time mothers (me included) never consider their babies sleep requirements and are never advised on it. We took our babies out wherever we went leaving them to sleep whenever they could. When they cried from tiredness we would misinterpret their cries as hunger or boredom and feed them or produce some new plastic toy to dazzle them with.
They then would develop a wide eyed exhausted gaze which would cause people to comment on how ?they?re taking it all in? when they?re actually overwhelmed.

It is amazing quite how much sleep little babies need. Before 12 weeks they need about 16 hours a day . My 9 wk old feeds about 7 times in 24 hours taking a total of 5 hours 15mins. Assuming he goes straight back to sleep after his night feeds and one day feed. Then after the other 4 day feeds he has 40mins before he needs to be asleep and as it can take 10mins to get him to sleep he can only really be awake 30 mins after a feed. Ime babies under 2 months can stay awake for a max of between 1 and 2 hours. If kept awake longer than that period they not only struggle to sleep immediately after but also struggle to sleep in the evening, for the night.

I do realise that the first few weeks when establishing breastfeeding are an exception. Until breastfeeding is established the baby by definition isn?t full and they have to work at increasing your supply. Living with a hungry baby is really hard and they inevitably can?t get the sleep they need while they need to be awake and feeding constantly or else when they sleep only briefly before waking hungry. One problem in parents? perception after these weeks is that their baby can?t sleep and we become quite used to having an awake baby for company. The baby then cluster feeds due to the sleep deprivation and the mother is left thinking there is no time between feeds to bother trying for a nap. I remember myself and other mums at the time commenting on how our babies didn?t sleep anything like the amount the books suggested (as if that was their fault ) and we would miss our babies company if they slept more during the day!

However, once breastfeeding is established we should be trying much harder to get our babies to sleep in the day. My first was unable to sleep unaided, unless exhausted, after those first 6 weeks. She needed to be rocked and have a finger to suck before she would sleep. We naively only gave her the opportunity to sleep at night. It could then take up to 3 hours of various tactics before she eventually succumbed. Demand sleeping does not work . Babies need a quiet, dark, comfortable environment and many need help getting to sleep. We shouldn?t be offering them this only at the end of the day and we shouldn?t be left to learn it the hard way.

Vent over. Carry on.

OP posts:
FAQ · 08/10/2008 20:27

sorry but they ARE different sleep needs. They are no different from adults in the amount of sleep they need/how often.

I can't really use DS1 as an example - as he was dreadful - and he was my only fully BF baby.

However DS2 and 3 were both FF (DS3 BF for a few weeks, them mixed fed until he was 4 months)

There sleep needs and demands were both TOTALLY different. If I'd try to treat them the same it would have been a recipe for disaster.

Oh and incidentally - my "best" sleeper of the 3 of them is DS2 - who has always slept anywhere, anyhow, in any "light"

LittleMyDancingWithTheDevil · 08/10/2008 20:37

Path who on earth has made you this angry?

You say you've 'got it right' with your third child - maybe this child is just a better sleeper by nature than the others?

Maveta · 08/10/2008 20:39

I am totally baffled that anyone has managed to answer this thread with anything more than
.
.
.
.
eh????

FAQ · 08/10/2008 20:42

agree Little - I thought I had it "right" with DS2.........then DS3 came along and I realised then that it was each to their own rules and that DS3 would not do the same as DS2 even if treated in exactly the same way (with regards to sleep).

CoteDAzur · 08/10/2008 20:47

What are you on about?

That little babies (and their mums) should stay at home all day so they can quickly be put in a dark room when they get sleepy, which will be every couple of hours?

PathofLeastResistance · 08/10/2008 20:49

All three of mine scream terribly if they are late for a nap or over tired in the evening. dd1 was badly sleep deprived for the first 6 weeks and started screaming every evening from about 4 weeks. I tried using Gina Ford to get her into a rhythm and while it didn't work perfectly it was a hell of a lot better than what we had before when we did nothing. This was based on 2 hour wakeful periods.

dd2 i tried to keep awake too much aiming for a 1 1/2 wakeful period and she only settled at 12 weeks when I realised she needed more sleep than I had realised.

Ds1 can only go for 1 hour or else he cries.

In retrospect I think the others would have been better off with one hour wakeful periods.

I think I am lucky to have children who protest about lack of sleep rather than putting up with it the way many do - as it has meant I have learnt about how to do it.

Plenty of little babies just get muffled with a dummy because their parents don't take the time to work out why they are actually crying.

OP posts:
PathofLeastResistance · 08/10/2008 20:50

Of course we don't always use a dark room - he has two older sisters.

We often go out with a sling but he does sleep better in the dark - as do we all.

OP posts:
LittleMyDancingWithTheDevil · 08/10/2008 20:52

I'm still perplexed by who this thread is aimed at exactly - are you cross with the hc professionals for not telling you more about sleep?

With other mothers who don't do as you do?

With the world in general?

Please tell us. I'm confused.

FrayedKnot · 08/10/2008 20:53

Ds never got overtired or screamed through tiredness. He "demand slept", certainly when very tiny, anyway. Am I missing something here?

georgimama · 08/10/2008 20:54

But Path, if babies are that tired they will just fall asleep, particularly if they are BF. Let's face it, in the early days our repetoire is pretty limited - you can offer them food, you can try and put them in their cot/crib, you can put them in the car or pram and take them out. Any one of those would result in my DS falling asleep within about 10 minutes tops.

It's pretty hard to make a newborn baby stay awake. Is that what you were doing? If so, is the problem that you feel guilty about it? Please explain.

I'm still struggling to understand the thread tbh, "babies needs sleep" seems to be on a similar wavelength to "Pope is Catholic" ie a statement of the bleeding obvious.

jimjamshaslefttheyurt · 08/10/2008 20:54

I found all 3 of mine very different in the way they slept.

I can't say I tried desperately hard to keep any of them awake

FAQ · 08/10/2008 20:55

all of my DS have always slept during the day in "natural" light, and at night in the dark (or with nightlights now they're a bit older and have decided they're scared of the dark ).

Oh and trust me - I knew why DS1 was crying - he was tired - but would he sleep - hell no!!!

Whereas DS3 was whinging this morning and I didn't have a clue why until he went quiet for 15 minutes and fell asleep on the floor surrounded by biscuit crumbs and chocolate wheetos

FAQ · 08/10/2008 20:56

pmsl @ georgimama's last paragraph

PathofLeastResistance · 08/10/2008 20:56

My gripe is with hcp for not giving any advice on sleep.

and with parents who don't give their babies an opportunity to sleep when needed - only letting them crash out on the play gym and then taking them out in the evening to restaurants etc.

OP posts:
GivePeasAChance · 08/10/2008 20:56

Uptight. Tense. Highly strung. Intense. Insane.

Pour yourself a glass of wine and chill out.

mehgalegs · 08/10/2008 20:57

I can't make head or tale of this thread and I am sorry that I haven;t read it all but could someone please explain how a baby can be sleep deprived? Mine all slept when the yneeded to, i deffo never stopped them sleeping.

Sounds like someone is in the midst of some bad sleep deprivation and over analysing. I can rather smugly say that we are just about through the disturbed nights now, they are a distant memory. hopefully they will be for you too soon path, then you might look back on this thread and wonder what on earth you were on about.

georgimama · 08/10/2008 20:57

Seriously though FAQ, have you ever met any new mother who wasn't demented about trying to get their child to sleep more? I've never ever met anyone who purposefully kept their baby awake. I don't get it.

PathofLeastResistance · 08/10/2008 20:58

FAQ - that is my point. If you pay no attention to their sleep then they get overtired - scream because they are tired and are really hard to get to sleep. That is exactly what we did with dd1 btw.

OP posts:
KingOfTheSchoolRun · 08/10/2008 20:58

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FabioHasTenLives · 08/10/2008 20:58

Path clearly thinks she is RIGHT and we are WRONG

georgimama · 08/10/2008 21:00

DS was great at going to restaurants as a newborn, would sleep through the whole process. Did wonders for us to actually do something normal!

Was impossible after about 6 weeks, but since he was about 9 months old restaurants are an option again as he can sit in highchair and eat with us (strictly during the day of course).

PathofLeastResistance · 08/10/2008 21:00

It's not that people keep their babies awake deliberately they just wait until they are collapsing exhausted into sleep rather than catching the moment when they are ready but need a bit of help to fall asleep.

OP posts:
PathofLeastResistance · 08/10/2008 21:01

Georgimama - you are very lucky to have a baby that could sleep through all that.

OP posts:
GivePeasAChance · 08/10/2008 21:02

I do blame Gina for these insane posts. She has done you in. Burn her books now!

hatrick · 08/10/2008 21:03

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