Is anyone else not sleep training?

[HuntGather]

I have an 8mo who is a terrible sleeper and has been for many months - the most I get is a 2 hour stretch, and that’s with cosleeping. I'm not keen to sleep train but I seem to very much be in the minority with this and people are always telling me to do it. I've had my moments where I've considered it but it really doesn't feel good to me.

Is anyone else in a similar boat?

Like you said, every baby is different (and parent). Co sleeping worked for me- I loved doing it with my first and I love doing it with my second. So for me it isn't a chore. If mine wakes in the night I feed him to sleep- again that works for me- and I also did this when partner worked away and when I had work the next day.
Being woken a few times in the night really doesn't bother me. In my younger years I used to go to work on alot less sleep after partying! And even in my post partying but pre baby years sometimes I used to wake in the night, potter around for a bit then go back to bed.

🤷🏻‍♀️

I co-slept and EBF my baby. At around one year old at its worst he was waking every hour of the night. I was a danger to him and myself in the day from exhaustion.

I sleep trained without ever leaving him alone to cry. He's the only toddler I know in my friendship group of 15 other mothers with similar aged children who sleeps 13 hours a night straight reliably.

Right. You have to find what works for you and baby.

For some, it will be co-sleeping, for others it will be sleep training and some will perhaps eventually do both.

Thank you. We can agree to disagree on things respectfully instead of it all getting out of hand and people getting nasty. Not referring to you @Yourethebeerthief btw

We didn’t either. First baby nightmare sleeper. Felt wrong to me and I knew it was true anxiety at being away from me. Glad I didn’t, he’s autistic . Also sleep apnoea which is more common than you think and wakes them up. Second baby sleeps much better but no sleep training . Co sleep with both and so pleased I did. No tips really just get through it and go with your gut. Just don’t make yourself miserable as they’ll sleep how they sleep and a lot of it is nothing to do with you.

I never did and never would - it seems cruel and unnatural to me. And no I'm not just a sahm to one who can nap the next day. I've got 2 kids and zero family nearby and it was so tough when my youngest was a baby. So unbelievably tough. She woke every hour for nearly a year and I was shattered but I was determined to always be there for her. She's a very happy toddler now who sleeps much better and we are a very happy family. No regrets.

How on earth did you do it without him crying? Curious.

I know two doctors socially and both cosleep 🤣 despite being against it initially.

It sounds like you're doing brilliantly op and don't give in to any pressure. If you don't want to sleep train you 100% shouldn't. Look up Beyond Sleep Training on Facebook.

@Newsenmum she didn't say no crying she said never left alone to cry. So probably him crying but with someone in the room but not picking the baby up or whatever.

Sleep training doesn’t have to involve leaving babies to cry it out or scream with no one coming to them.
Nothing cruel about it. Good sleep is very natural so why would you think it’s unnatural.
My DT’s were happy and much loved and we are always there for them but everyone is happier and healthier from having good sleep and not being shattered to start the working day

@Newsenmum

What? Of course he cried. Some women also decide they need to stop breastfeeding and their children cry until they've accepted that the milk is done. I continued to breastfeed in the day and before bed until my child stopped naturally by himself at 2, but do I judge mothers who take the breast away cold turkey? Absolutely not.

Children cry for lots of things that are good for them and their parents: removing a dummy, getting vaccinations, not getting all the sweets and chocolate they want, going to nursery... all of these things can be done with love, gentleness, and kindness. Sleep training is no different. It's only on Mumsnet that so many people seem to think sleep training means shutting the door on a newborn and leaving them to scream until they're quiet. I've never met anyone in real life who thinks this.

I outlined how I sleep trained my son earlier in the thread. I was with him always and he never thought he was simply abandoned to scream for someone who wouldn't come to him.

I don't know why you're talking about two random doctors you know. I have 3 friends who are doctors. Surgeon and 2 GPs. Two sleep trained and one didn't. None co-slept. What's the relevance?

Because babies don't come out of the womb, understanding day vs night, nor do they understand that getting to sleep requires some effort. It doesn't just naturally come. How many adults do you know struggle with sleep, in some part due to poor routines and sleep habits? It is something to be improved with effort and practice.

I don't hang around with monkeys, so wouldn't know. Do you?

We are teaching our children skills all the time, everyday, and that's how they develop. Getting to sleep is one of those skills. And yes, parents need sleep too. Why would you think promoting poor parental mental health would be a good idea? How is that good for anyone? A tired parent will not be able to care effectively during the day and it can become unsafe.

You don't see monkeys or other mammals "training" their offspring to sleep at certain times and alone and not wake.

This absolutely cracks me up. Not seen many monkeys holding down full time jobs. Seen plenty of monkeys, apes and other mammals having a good old chomp on any babies they don't really fancy rearing though. Or just abandoning them.

Utterly vacuous comparison.

That's fortunate your baby was able to co-sleep. Mine wouldn't. She would think mummy and daddy's bed was playtime and stay up all night.

Sleep is a biological function like breathing, so no it cannot be compared to potty training or any other of the silly analogies on here.
Sleep training is not a concept that exists outside the Western countries, and presumably there's not an epidemic of adults who don't know how to go sleep independently worldwide.
I never understood why "sleep training" is always trotted out as if it's 100% guaranteed to work, and not doing so is banishing yourself to a life with poor sleep?
People find it so difficult to view babies as individual people with different temperaments.

This is an important point and thank you for bringing up.

One day my baby started resisting the car seat. She would cry uncontrollably for up to an hour after strapping her seat belt on.

People say it's cruel to leave babies to cry. I suppose MN want me to then stay at home indefinitely, walk everywhere, or drive without the seat belt. Babies cry. Even when it's for their own good.

This fear of not wanting to upset our children or make them cry for any reason whatsoever, I'm sure is why so many kids nowadays behave so poorly.

@PearlSnake

I never understood why "sleep training" is always trotted out as if it's 100% guaranteed to work, and not doing so is banishing yourself to a life with poor sleep?

I'd say it's the opposite on threads like these and Mumsnet in general. If you sleep train you're a heartless parent who leaves their baby to cry themselves into silence.

I don't know anyone who says sleep training is 100% guaranteed to work. For one thing, "sleep training" is not one method. There are different approaches. I didn't read up on it, I just went with my gut and made up my own gentle approach to sleep train my son.

And that biological function that babies have to sleep- their parents also have that need. And if their parents are so sick with exhaustion that they are a danger to their children then there is absolutely nothing wrong with gently sleep training a child.

If people don't want to that's their choice. Those who do are not being cruel to their children.

And all the bullshit on this thread about how cruel it is: just like potty training, breastfeeding, and baby led weaning, I'd love to meet the person who can point to everyone in a room full of adults and say which one did or didn't do each of these and what age where they when they potty trained. Same goes for sleep training.

Mumsnet is just a hive of self-righteous, judgmental mothers who are self-absorbed with the way they personally have chosen to parent their children.

Think I'm going to have to sleep train my daughter. We cosleep and she's waking up frequently. Pregnant with my third so desperately need my sleep

We didn't sleep train. Sleep was great until 4.5m. Then fairly woeful until 10m (waking a minimum of twice a night with lengthy periods of hourly or 2 hourly wakes). I only really knew of Ferber style methods and they didn't sit comfortably for us personally,he would have become highly distressed as that was just his temperament and I could not have withheld comfort without becoming very upset myself. I'm now aware of other more gentle/gradual methods, but we still couldn't face it and things gradually improved by themselves.

Hes now 21m and has slept in his own room since 7m. He goes to sleep with a handhold in the cot or a cuddle if he wants more closeness. He has periods of sleeping though but at the moment he's teething so is up at least once. It's no longer as debilitating for us as the previous waking was, so we likely won't bother now. yes, i was exhausted. My husband started helping with wakes at 7m and now does most night wakes since i stopped BF overnight at around 17m. Night weaning did not help sleep.

Most people I know have sleep trained even some who think they haven't. Most who have used Ferber etc have had to do it multiple times. Some of them don't want to have to adjust baby's sleep with their changing needs and I suspect some issues could have been addressed through routine and sleep balance. A lot of it is also down to temperament. What may take one baby 2 or 3 nights of a bit of upset, may have another baby hysterical for weeks. what each family is prepared to tolerate tiredness wise and distress wise also varies hugely.

Just as there are plenty of people who think sleep training is harmful and judge it, there are plenty who sneer at those who don't sleep train and talk about it being unhealthy not to. So I think it generates a lot of emotion both ways.

Im personally happy to spend 10 mins holding his hand before bed, and cuddling him once a night if he needs it. I have a highly stressful job and commute and i cope. But I understand a lot of people are in a much worse sleep situation than us and can see why it may be unsustainable for them, so I would not judge.

Sending lots of solidarity your way. We never sleep trained and my 2 year old sleeps through by himself now; he half-wakes to nurse around 5am and then sleeps a few more hours. I'd say it took until around 18 months for him to go down to one wake up and it can vary a little if he's unwell but generally he sleeps brilliantly now. We co-sleep and have done since he was around 3 months old. We had a period from 7-10m when he was waking 15+ times a night and those months are still a blur for me; it was so, so hard. I felt strongly that any kind of cry it out training wouldn't be right for us (no judgement on others who do it though) and while it was awful trying to get through those few months, and even the months after when he was waking 5-10 times a night, I've never regretted that decision. Only you know your baby and your family situation and what's right for you but if you do decide to just stick with things as they are, please know it will get better. I'm sure she's been mentioned already but I found Dr Lyndsey Hookway a really helpful source of info (on IG and via her book). I also found it very helpful to just ignore the people who told me he would still be sleeping in our bed as a teenager etc. (it's amazing how many unsolicited opinions this stuff brings out!) Good luck and I really hope you're getting more rest soon.

@thebrowncurlycrown but most of us caring parents anyway presumably do what we can to help prevent our babies from crying. My baby also doesn't like the car seat, so I minimised car trips and found distracting toys to help her. You do what you can to help your baby and foster strong attachment with minimal crying, surely. So it's just anathema to me that some people happily leave their babies to cry just because it's night time.

Sure sometimes babies HAVE to cry (e.g. unavoidable car trip where nothing helps them stop crying) but most loving parents want to minimise that. Sleep training is not necessary and it's not for their own good. It's for the parent's convenience.

So it's just anathema to me that some people happily leave their babies to cry just because it's night time.

Sigh...

I give up on this fucking stupid thread

Says a poster who still has zero understanding of the gentle caring ways of sleep training for both the baby and parents benefit.

Signing off from a loving parent who is so pleased we did sleep training with our DT’s.

Ah I see what you mean. I never left DD to cry at all but I don’t see what I did as not sleep training. It was probably close to what people describe as pat to sleep - never any crying involved. But it helped her learn to join sleep cycles and was sleep training IMO. Is that maybe what a lot of your friends mean? 8 months with no more than 2 hours of uninterrupted sleep can’t be good for your health. Most babies are sleeping through for a lot longer by 8 months (ignoring regressions) so maybe your DC could benefit from a bit of help. As would you. Those early months are awful - but what you don’t want is a 4 year old with bad sleep habits.

I have an awful habit of posting and then remembering something else, so sorry for the follow on post. I was really lucky that I had a wonderful community midwife in my pregnancy who also did my follow on checks post birth. Ignoring the trauma of the actual birth and aftermath - Annie was a godsend. I still think about her 16 years later.

One thing she said to me which might be helpful (ignore if not) is that babies have no other way of communicating bar crying. Bit just as with words tone matters. So not all cries are equal and that part of what we need to learn as parents is when a cry is really a distress call vs a call to meet a specific need eg hungry, needing a nappy change, and needing some rest. Sometimes babies cry because they’re as tired as you are and the best thing we can do for them is help them sleep.

Annie was a very wise woman.