11 year (yes, YEAR!!) old not sleeping in own bed

[Baxterbaxter]

My just-turned 11 year old cannot sleep in his own bed, by himself, through the night.

It started when he was a baby; he had awful asthma / bad croup and would stop breathing, so I would keep him with me in case of an episode. This happened a few times; each time we rushed him to hospital as he just couldn’t breathe.

He eventually grew out of this but he could only go to sleep if we lay down with him. Guaranteed, he would wake during the night and come into my bed.

Skip forward a few years, and this is EVERY SINGLE NIGHT. He has just gone into year 6 and he refused to go on the residential as he cannot sleep alone.

DH and I are at breaking point, so we have decided he has got to learn to put himself down. We have a 9 year old DD who is a great sleeper - she can put herself to sleep and stays asleep for 12 hours - no issues at all.

Tonight is the second night where we have put DS to sleep; DH laid with him the first night in his own bed, the lamp was on and he has calming music playing. DS was in our room for 3 hours throughout this night, saying he couldn’t sleep. Each time we put him back to bed. Eventually, he went into DD’s bed to sleep. DH and I work full time so we were shattered yesterday, as was DD as DS just moves around constantly (we didn’t realise he went into DD’s room, I found him there in the morning). Tonight is going in the same vein; I lay with him initially and then, bang on midnight, DS is in our room, saying he can’t sleep / can’t close his eyes. He tried to go back into DD’s bed but I got him back out, I must’ve put him back in his own bed at least 15 times over the last 3 hours. My poor DH is driving 6+ hours for work tomo, so I’m trying to let him sleep. He is still up now, walking around, saying he can’t sleep.

What do I do?! I know we have made a rod for our own backs by letting DS come into our bed all these years, even though it was with the best intentions initially as we were concerned about his health.

Do we just ignore him when he gets up, persevere with putting him straight back to sleep? I’m so tired. It’s like having a newborn again.

My 12 yr old daughter still sleeps in my room. As much as I would love for her to sleep in her own room and she’s actually starting to do it. I know she won’t be in my room forever and that if I can build her confidence to do so then I will.

I also don't think it's weird at all him going to sisters bed - my DD definitely did that with her younger sister a couple of times .

Oh come on. He slept perfectly fine for 5 nights in his own room when he was told he had too. Let's not encourage this into something he has therapy and consultations for and create a massive issue - you are saddling the poor lad with big issues then!

I know of a now 14yo whose mum sleeps in his bed with him and scratches/rubs his back until he falls asleep and then usually stays in there with him.
Its a very odd situation as it’s her who is a bit obsessive with him and I don’t think would allow him to sleep alone.

The other one was a 17yo!! Who slept in between his mum and dad (no known ND).
He had 3 brothers too and so I’m not sure why it was just him that did it.

I don’t understand how these couples have a sex life but part of me wonders if letting the child sleep in the bed is an excuse to not have sex for one of them.

It’s always boys.
I think the parents allow it and then it’s too difficult to stop once they get to a certain age.

I would have a chat to him about it and gradually have him sleep in his own bed all night.

I like the suggestion of a mattress on the floor.

There could be an issue with him keep getting into your DDs bed which isn’t fair on her.

Is she going on a residential trip any time soon?
This could be a good time to do it so he doesn’t go in with her instead.

Wow it's all flooding back now - we did this too - I remember we had a mattress on the floor DD would sometimes sleep on at the end of the bed . That helped everyone sleep when we were desperate. I don't know how we got through it looking back , both working FT . DD still has sleep issues in her 20s but manages better now .

1. When comes your room he must sleep on the floor on small single futon mattress (The Futon Company makes for sleepovers). No exception.
2. Move it closer to your bedroom door.
3. Futon in hall outside your door.
4. Move it closer to his room

There must be no exceptions / can be rewards (this method worked for a younger child)

Have you considered a weighted blanket? To help feeling secure
Heated mattress cover?
Those long hug pillows
?

It is more common than MN would have you believe. We kept our diffulties to ourselves at the time (bar the GP) as I assumed we were outliers and I already had a reputation of being the hippy cosleeping breastfeeder😆. But now we are a long way over it, I've often mentioned it to people and I'm surprised how many people say their DC was like this too. It seems to be common for it to stop around the age of 12, as it mainly did for us.
I did read something years ago that it's not a actually a normal (normal not the right word, but brain fog has got me today) thing for humans to sleep alone.

I'm surprised anyone asks for advice on Mumsnet any more.

Absolutely no empathy for a mum who had to take a drastic measure to keep her small child alive and the child and mum who clearly still hold residual anxiety from this early necessity.

Sly and insinuating comments about an 11 year old child and his sister as he seeks comfort from a safe person.

I am generally a no nonsense just get on with it parent but when it comes to telling someone to smother their feelings and shut up, effectively, to achieve a practical goal it a) is horrible and causes problems further down the line and b) doesn't fucking work anyway.

One of my friends from school her brother was like that . He ended up getting into her bed when she was 15 and trying to assault her. It came out that he had been inappropriate with her before but parents ignored it.
They didn't tell anyone. Just got him some help and he moved out .
But she never moved out and hasnt ever had a proper relationship. I think it really messed her up. She became her parents carer.

I agree. His sister shouldn't be under the impression that people can go into her bed at night without her consent and use her as comfort. It's nothing to do with sexual abuse. Where are her boundaries? At the moment she doesn't seem to have any as the needs of her brother who can sleep when there's nits comes above her and her sleep.

I've been on and off MN for donkeys years and I think it's time to take a break again. I seem to spend my days arguing against people who seemingly have no empathy and no comprehension of other people's lives being different from theirs. Or they don't read the OP's threads and updates and just plough on with their uninformed opinion.

I also agree. All this talk about self soothing, 'putting him down' etc is too much. He's proven he can do it for 5 nights. But he's still got away with it for this long, at the expense of his sisters privacy. He could go through puberty anytime now, that's if he hasn't started already. This is all very inappropriate.

@OrlandointheWilderness Offer advice and options but there is a way to do it which isn’t condescending and rude.

@Saveusernsme says the person who told someone to pipe down...!

And actually I haven't been condescending or rude. Frustrated, yes. I haven't insulted or belittled anyone at all.

The appropriate response is to go back to his parents and explain how anxious he is, not climb into bed with his sister! Would he do this with a total stranger?

He's going to get into trouble if he uses other females as support humans like this as he gets older. It doesn't matter how scared he is, it's not his sister's responsibility, he needs to go back to his parents.

It's not ok to get into bed with someone who's not awake without waking them up and asking FFS! She is not his support human! She matters too.

What if she woke up and was horrified/ terrified (causing her to have sleep issues possibly - I'm sure I wouldn't be able to sleep if I thought my brother was going to just wander in and get into bed with me!). And no-one knows that he wasn't 'stroking' her either. They weren't there. Beyond inappropriate and very cruel to the sister who seemingly gets no say in this at all. I wonder how she felt about this. I wonder if OP has asked her.

Maybe I'm hard-faced but I agree with this.

He can be up, but he cannot leave his room unless he needs the bathroom. He can put an audio book on low, or read for a bit, or get out of bed and pace round his room with a teddy but he is not to come in your room, and definitely not his sister's room, if he can't sleep.

I had terrible insomnia as a kid, but I'd never have dreamed of going into my parents unless I was ill or scared or what have you.

OP talks about what a great sleeper his sister is. That's not going to last long if she can't be sure she's not going to wake up to find her brother in bed next to her.

DD had this in year 6. Constant insomnia then getting herself worked up as she couldn’t sleep and we were on our knees. She did go on sleepovers but slept in with her friend-even on guide camp they slept in the same sleeping bag! It’s not being naughty when they are struggling and don’t know how to get themselves out of the situation or help themselves. Those skills have to be learnt.

We did as we did when they were babies. DH slept in her room and she came in with me. We all managed to sleep. Yes, not ideal and yes, lasted for longer than we thought; however, wasn’t forever and she made the decision to move back into her own room. Several years later, she does nothing but sleep 😉

Do what works for you as a family.

I think people need to stop going on about the sibling issue. The OP has outright said she's not happy about her DS going into his sister's bed and is going to tell him not to. Yes, it's not appropriate but neither, without more, is it unusual or worrying. It happens. Siblings hit and kick and lick and wrestle and poke and pinch and do all sorts of inappropriate things to each other throughout childhood and it's the parents' job to put a stop to it. Kids do inappropriate things and parents have to address these behaviours but, without more to cause concern, that's essentially it. I have to tell my older one not to lick the younger one's nose sometimes - they both think it's hilarious but I obviously think it's gross.

My son was similar, he’s 12 now and a lot better than he was. He has ADHD which makes winding down / going to sleep difficult coupled with anxiety. He’s a lot better now but does still occasionally appear in our bed in the middle of the night. There were a few things that helped us. We used to have to sit in his room until he fell asleep (which would take 1-3 hours). We tried the approach of sitting in the corridor, stairs etc but it still took him too long (he was tired, we couldn’t get anything done in the evening). We then tried a sleep hypnotherapy from you tube (Elaine Martin). This really worked for us - i think the first night we played the video twice (we got him to lie down in bed, eyes closed and just listen to it.) On the following nights he fell asleep within a few minutes. We don’t use it anymore routinely unless he asks as he’s finding it difficult to sleep. In terms of the night visits to our room we worked at reducing this from every night to 1-2 nights per week (he had a “ticket” he could use - this was a suggestion from an anxiety program he was on) but the hypnotherapy thing seemed to reduce the night waking so it became less of an issue. He does still come into our bed sometimes but this now tends to be after a routine change (coming back from holiday). It’s not easy having a child with sleep problems but just keep trying different things and although it may not sleep like it things will get better. If he wants to be able to sleep in his own bed and not miss out on things like sleepovers / residential trips this will be a big help as it is something to get him to work towards.

I think that fact he can't sleep is secondary to the fact that at 11 he thinks it's appropriate to wake the rest of the household up about it.

If he can't sleep then he needs to read a book in his room and be quiet.

It sounds like a little progress has been made in this morning's conversation, OP. If your DS has vocalised that it's waking up alone that's particularly scary, that would make me think you might be able to sell the idea of a mattress on the floor of your room - he will be in a room with other people but without the bed sharing and stroking.

I have this body pillow, it's massive and very comfy, maybe he'd like something like it?

I think this is probably going to need to be done bit by bit given how long it's been going on for:

Start with a trundle / blow up / mattress for him to sleep on in your room. Cuddle him in that bed at bedtime but then leave him to go to sleep. Initially stay in your room in your bed if you need to (early night with a Kindle / phone and headphones for TV under the covers to pass the time).

Then cuddles at bedtime but you'll leave the room for however long between his bedtime and yours and he goes to sleep on his own with the reassurance that you'll be there overnight.

Once that's working, move into his room and repeat but he sleeps in his bed with you or DH on the trundle until he builds up healthy sleeping habits in his own space. Then you can hopefully gradually retreat over time.

For when he wakes in the night and can't settle, would listening to a podcast help? My DD suffers from anxiety and has had sleep issues in the past and found this helpful. She has an Apple HomePod in her room so doesn't need to access her phone overnight. An Alexa would work in a similar way.

I think going back to basics like using reward charts may be helpful (especially if the reward was significant for the end goal with little prizes along the way for the smaller steps). Would it help for him to sleep with a t shirt that you or DH have worn if the smell is comforting to him. His sleep habits are like a baby / toddler so you may have to treat him like that initially.

Yes, that is what I wrote. Seriously.