People keep telling me I’m depressed, isn’t this just hell for anyone?

[Secondchildregret]

4:30am (if we’re lucky, once it was 3:30am)
every single day..
without fail.

Both of them are up screaming, shouting, whining, crying.

I give them milk and a banana and they continue to fight scream and cry.

Will not go back with anything we’ve tried it all - paid a sleep consultant… everything.

My eyeballs ache most days
im cloudy and can’t concentrate
I just want to fucking sleep I want to go to sleep in silence and rest in the knowledge that I am going to wake up when I’m fully rested in silence and have a chance to come around before being shouted or screamed at.

I work ten hour shifts to give them everything they need and they just won’t let me sleep.. ever..

By the time I’ve finished sorting out all the crap from them throughout the day/evening it’s post 9pm, half hour of silence to myself then to sleep.

We still frequently get broken sleep because it’s cough season and they cry all the time

They can’t even play in their rooms quietly so I can at least have some rest in silence, one steals the others dummy and they fight over it.

it’s not a lot to ask.. imo

I think you should cut out the milk and banana, sorry.

Their bodies are used to being fed at that time so their metabolism will be waking up and making them hungry because their stomachs are expecting to be fed at 4.30. So I think it will make the problem worse in the long term.

I’m sure you’ve read all the sleep training books but the Ferber book is really good.

Can they go to bed later to see if that pushes their wake time later?

Routines:
1yo (this is more vague because sometimes he naps sometimes he doesn’t. The only guarantee is his bedtime and wake time and has been his whole life)
4:30 up drink and banana
6:00 downstairs toast/porridge/cereal
8:00 travel to childcare or out to do something if it’s my days with them
8:30 a snack and drink
10:30 1-2.5hr nap maybe(?) if it’s short then there will be another afternoon one if it’s long there won’t be.
lunch upon waking and drink
Maybe afternoon nap if not snack 14: ish
Tea 16:30
bath17:30
sleep18:00

2yo
up at 4.30 snack and drink
downstairs at 6:00 toast/cereal/porridge
8:00 leave for childcare or out for day
8:30-9 snack and drink
11 lunch and drink
14:00 snack and drink
16:30 tea
17:30 bath
18:30 bed (sometimes it’s 7, we’ve tried pushing it all the way to 8pm for weeks at a time but still 4:30 wake up).

They obviously have access to drinks whenever they want, neither is on milk anymore they would pee through by morning so switches to having it with tea (part of dessert)

2yo is really picky these days, barely nibbles at things, 1yo I can’t get enough food into, he eats his tea and a whole other portion sometimes tracking 91st centile since birth.

I think you should stop the food too, they are waking up hungry and expecting to be fed because their body is in a habit. Have you tried a groclock? They're really good. It's a little clock you put in their room that lights up with a sun at wake up time. You set the wake up time and tell them you will not get them before the sun comes up. In your case I would probably set it to 5 am, and then slowly inch forward 5 minutes at a time. Get them used to a little play before food as well.

why is their dad not talking a turn? He should be getting up with them as well to let you rest.

Ok, the food is a new thing.
If we don’t provide food/drink they just cry and scream to go downstairs.

With food/drink we get to stay upstairs and in bed with them toddling about until 6am.

Dinner is way to early. I do dinner about 5pm ish. Maybe 530pm. Depends on nursery and such. I read somewhere that Los wake 12 hours after dinner/ last time they eat.
Then supper about 715pm, banana, toast, cereal, even done couple yorkshires.

Your one year old is probably overtired with one nap. Maybe try something like
930am till 1015am nap. Wake lo if needed.
1230pm/ 1pm nap. Offer milk before nap, as lo should be having milk i think. Let lo sleep till 4pm if they want.

That’s what time they get provided food at childcare, we offer again when I get home at 17:30 but they almost always refuse, so we just do bath and bed

Have not read whole thread apart from OP updates.

Tea at 430 - is that their last meal? If so, that's really very early.
Surely they're waking due to hunger?

We used to do last meal at 530/6 when my kids were that age. They'd then have bath every other night, then bad. Waking at about 6am.

I think childcare would expect you to give them more food later.

Maybe a 'supper' after bath? Cheese & crackers? Something protein rich.

The best thing we ever did when my two were waking at similar times (there are only 12 months between them so I feel your pain) was to go to bed ridiculously early ourselves

I tried to keep the stuff we had to do in the evenings to an absolute bare minimum and dh and I often went to bed at 8.30 (earliest was 7.45 I think!) If you're asleep by 9 then a 4 am waking is much easier to deal with. We decided it was all about getting the hours in while we could and it made a huge difference to us. My mental health was shot to pieces with the lack of sleep and this really helped

Every sympathy - it's absolutely shite

We do offer because we eat when I finish work but they don’t eat? Not even their favourites.

Seeing the routines they are waking due to hunger. Can you try introducing a filling supper around 7pm?

Hey OP, that sounds bloody awful and I can only sympathise rather than give practical advice for their sleep pattern.

However I would say swap the banana for something else as they are notorious for spiking blood sugar and so may prolong the waking and keep them (and you) awake for longer.

I really hope it improves for you

This is the perfect time to plonk them in front of the TV.
Let them veg out for the time between wake up and time to go down stairs

Controversial I know.

But you can at least try to catch up on sleep and then think about it properly in a few months.

I've got the same age gap but mine are 5 and 6 now.
Sleep deprivation is awful, I ended up on sertraline and haven't come off it yet.
I would try having a really early bedtime at least once a week. As soon as the DC are in bed go to bed yourself. It's rubbish but it helps catch up on sleep.
Try and get as much done in the daytime so there's less to do in the evenings.
It will get better with time but I know that doesn't help right now!

Absolutely terrible advice. As if a 14m old will 'veg' out quietly. And the parents shouldn't be letting them roam around the house alone at that age while they sleep

I think, given they are asleep at 6pm and, illness excluded, they sleep through for over 10 hous you either need to shift their bedtime or your bedtime.
I hear you on the 4.30 tea at nursery, so I'd stop at a park on the way home, run around for a bit, come home and do something gentle, bath before tea, and try to push bed to after 7. It will take a while, but you should be able to then push that 10.30 nap later, and the morning wake up later.
I'm not actually surprised they are waking 12 hours after food, and after 10 hous of sleep.

Well if they've eaten a meal an hour before, the. Naturally they won't want anything really.

Make sure that tea at 4:30 is good filling stuff, or... Make them wait until 5:30 for dinner. They might be properly hungry then. They seem to snack a lot.

This is awful and I completely agree that sleep deprivation is the worst!

i agree with PP, I would stop snacks at 4am, it might be time to have a few awful nights and be harder on them. I hate the cry it out method but it might be a good option here.

The oldest child could respond to a sticker chart but I know you have tried pretty much everything so I bet you have done this already.

Can you alternate parents getting up at the weekend?

A week with a gro clock and refusing snacks until the clock is 'awake' might help the early wakings.

My life has been similar. 3yo still wakes 3 times a night, up for the day at 5:30. I work full time and 50 hours a week. I've visibly aged.

I would try to reset them by doing later supper time and then later bedtime. They'll still wake at that time but they'll be so knackered the next day they might have a nap and be able to keep going longer.

And TV!

As if a sleep deprived parent is a safe and effective parents.

The kid can just watch cbeebies on the iPad in her room if needed.

Honestly , getting the sleep is the most important thing here. Last thing OP wants is to crash the fucking car on the M3 because she fell asleep at the wheel.

OK so it's pretty clear hopefully you agree that they need more sleep. Overtiredness fuels early starts. I would put them to bed after tea. Anytime from 5pm. I know it sounds crackers but you need a 12hr day / 12hr night roughly. You can't achieve that at the mo. So achieve that first then work on the early morning.

For the 4:30 morning, that's absolutely night time still. That means no more milk and banana or getting up to play in bedrooms. Keep it dark and quiet. I would aim for 5am being morning to start work. Get a gro clock, set the sun to come up 5am. Stay in their beds with them keeping them quiet a wait for the sun. Yes they're young to understand it but view it as seeing them up for the future. Sun comes up, let's all go down for breakfast.

When you're on more of a 12hr day then you can look to move morning and bedtime back in 15 minute increments.

You really need the 1yo to be having 2 naps or failing that I used to have 'quiet time' and draw the curtains and sit on the sofa with blankets and picture books for half an hour.

I know it's tough. I had my own issues I was posting about on here at ages of 4 and 12m. My youngest is set on early, you might just have to accept that to a degree. But you need them to get enough sleep so at least they're happier and to be sleeping through for you.

I did controlled crying in the end for my then 12m old but having the routine right was the critical first step to setting us up for that to work.

And try to go to sleep at least once a week as soon as they do to get you through! Sim to get your head down by 7.30/8pm?

My DS routine (18 months):

7.00 am wake
7.15 breakfast
constant snacking
11-11.30 lunch
11.30ish - nap for 1 hour
more constant snacking
Tea 4ish (nursery)
5.30 - second dinner (a bit of what we’re having)
6.30pm rice pudding
7pm bed.

Agree OP that they need to eat something substantial just before bed. Otherwise 4.30 wake up is reasonable as it’s 12 hours since they ate.

We do baby rice with peanut butter in before bed. Give them anything they’ll eat and try to fill them up.