I'm a WellVine baby sleep consultant - ask me anything!

[KateMumsnet]

Hello everyone

We thought we'd try something new this week, as part of our mission to make parents lives easier. With our remarkable powers of observation , we've noticed that lots of new parents struggle with getting their baby to sleep at one time or another. Even those who 'got away with' an easy-peasy newborn can find themselves staring, eyes drooping, at a sleepless little one, whether it's at four months, or six, or twelve; just when you think you've got this sleep thing nailed, something comes along which takes you right back to square one, and exhaustion.

So we've invited the folks at WellVine over for a baby sleep AMA. The WellVine app gets you personalised sleep advice from your own baby sleep consultant, who gets to know your baby's needs and helps you work through a personal sleep plan, all over video call. Genius, really - no ‘cry it out’, just gentle and supportive sleep advice from an expert, when and where you need it.

WellVine's sleep consultants will be hopping on and off the thread around their other duties over the next few days, so leave your questions about your baby's sleep needs here on the thread and they'll come back to you with their advice. Personal sleep plans are a bit beyond the scope of an AMA, but they'll do their best with all your other questions, so ask them anything (sleep-related)!

If you think you'd benefit from some one-to-one sessions or want to find out more, have a look at WellVine. We'll get a very small commission if you sign up, which will help to keep the lights on at MNHQ - but there's absolutely no pressure and the AMA is open to anyone who has a desperate sleep question (usual webchat rules apply).

@SpriteGirl

Hi

Have a 9 week old baby who doesn’t sleep much. He’s waking every 1.5-2 hours at the moment at night. During the day he’ll sleep if in buggy or car (but it can take a while for him to drop off) and is awake as soon as we’re back home/out of the car.

Am reading that daytime sleep is important for good nighttime sleep but how do I get him to nap during the day? He’s breastfed (has a bottle of formula before bed which used to make him sleep about four hours but doesn’t have that effect anymore) will often doze at the breast during the day but not for long. He seemed to fall into a deeper sleep today so I transferred him and he stayed asleep for about 30 mins and then was awake again.

How can I get him to nap during the day?

Also when should we introduce a bedtime routine and put him down at 7pm?

Thanks.

Hi there,

At this age, the main focus for daytime is to avoid him getting overtired. Once you see any tired cues such as yawning, pulling his ears, tired cry, aim to put him down for a nap as soon as you can. It may be that he can only manage to be awake for up to an hour before he is ready to go down for his next nap.

In terms of settling he is still very little and catching him at the right time can help. If you want him to sleep in his crib, try putting him down once drowsy. If he gets upset pick him up to soothe him and put him down once calm.

You can introduce a loose bedtime routine from now, which are more about setting cues for sleep.

And most of all, enjoy your lovely baby!

Maryanne

Thanks for responding kerry.

@Stuckonthesofa

Hi Wellvine,

Our adopted daughter came home 11.5 months ago. She has never slept through. She wakes 2-3 times in the evening (goes to bed about 6/6.30) and once I go to bed wakes up 3-4 times. We're exhausted.
At the foster carers house she woke approx 10 times a night (for dummy) but went to sleep fine with a comforter.
Since moving here we have the trauma issue and once cracked teaching her to find her dummy, we realised she was waking just for reassurance that we are still here.
When I go in to her I shush her and resettle her (lay her down, pop her dummy in, snuggles on her head) and she goes back to sleep.
Do you have experience of children who have suffered trauma, and if so, what would you suggest?

It sounds like you are doing brilliantly and she is getting the reassurance she needs from just seeing you. You might want to try gradually reducing your input, so when you go in help her lie down rather than lying her down, put the dummy in her hand so she can put it in herself and just put a hand on her briefly. Over a series of nights, try to move towards a verbal reassurance. Also put multiple dummies in her cot so she can find one more easily.

Obviously she has had a lot to cope with in her little life and it will probably take her some time to feel secure and exhausting as it is for you, it sounds like you are doing just that.

Good luck!

Maryanne

@LethargicButAwesome

Hi Mary Anne, I have a 14 month old, wakes continuously throughout the night screaming for the breast, nothing will soothe him apart from bf. Sometimes he drinks sometimes it's comfort. He cannot seem to self soothe at all even during the day time nap the slightest noise will wake him and he cannot get back to sleep without being tapped or put back on the breast. He used to only sleep with the breast but trying to wean him, which means he only now sleeps when he is v tired. But when he stirs he cannot put himself back to sleep.

Hi there,

It sounds like he has an association with the feeding and sleep, making it difficult for him to transition between sleep cycles without the need for a feed.

You can use a gradual approach of reducing the length of time for the feeds during the night and use reassurance techniques to settle him.

A comforter with your smell can also help him feel more secure.

Hope this helps!

Maryanne

@Sehreena

Hello Maryanne! This post popped up for me and could not have come at a better time! My son is 8 months next week and wakes around 4/5 times a night crying. Breastfeeding is the only thing that will put him back to asleep. But when he wakes I try not to feed him but he acts like hes hungry so I always give in. We do cosleep, but will be moving him into a new cot in a few week which will be in our room. He eats 3 meals a day and has around 4 breast feeds in the day also. Is he actually hungry at night? For his naps sometimes he falls asleep nursing some times I just leave him and pat him to sleep. What can I do to get some more sleep at night?

Hi there,

It may be helpful to have your baby weighed with the HV to check that he is gaining weight as expected. If so, then it is unlikely he would need this number of feeds at night from a nutritional point of view.

If you want to encourage him to settle without the feeds each time you can use a gradual approach of reducing the length of each feed and use reassurance techniques to help him fall back to sleep.

If you are already patting him to fall asleep for some naps, then try doing this consistently and then progress to just laying your hand on him, and then intermittent with the aim of encouraging him to do it himself.

@LuLuDoLoo

Wow - its nice to know Im not alone on the sleep front! My (now 6 year old) didn't sleep through the night until she was 3, but since then she has been a fantastic sleeper. I would have never believed it until it happened, so persevere mums and dads! You are all superhero's!

She now has a 20m brother who also doesn't sleep (yay - thus the 2am posting). He wakes from about 12.30am until about 2.30am every night and gets very frustrated that he cant get back to sleep. Apart from keeping on lying him back down and shushing him every 5 minutes or so, we've run out of things to try. He's had night lights, no lights, water, nappy changes, tough love, lots of love etc etc. He has a Gro clock, lots of layers (in case he is cold), teddies, soothers. Nothing seems to break this cycle. Any advice you have to save my sanity would be fab. Currently sat on the bathroom floor in my 'night time office' waiting for him to fall asleep zzz

You are certainly not alone and as you know from your older daughter, it won't be forever!

A few things to consider for her brother...

• Nap during the day - one good sleep during the day around 12.30/1pm

• Make sure bedtime not too late - 7pm approx.

• Give him enough wind down time before putting him into cot.

• If he is reliant on you to facilitate his sleep at bedtime either by patting or shushing, try to start reducing your input.

Hope this helps!

Maryanne

@PirateMermaid

Hi Maryanne

Our 2 year 7 month old is a nightmare; we have no evening (and as we both work and I have a long commute it’s destroying us right now!).

He is in a bed as he kept dangerously climbing out his cot head first. He can also climb stair gates (headfirst).

He won’t stay in bed. We try the pick up and replace without engaging but it doesn’t work. As soon as he is in bed he is out and sprinting to the door. This can go on over 100 times. If we don’t stand outside the door he dives into his sisters room (age 5) and climbs on her bed waking her up.

He is at nursery during the day and doesn’t have a nap.

We start bedtime at 7pm with a story and then do the putting him back in bed until about 10pm which is when he normally relents. This has been going on about three weeks since he went in a bed and the time isn’t decreasing.

He normally stirs about midnight and ends up in bed with us, with one of us sleeping on the floor.

We are on the verge of booking a hotel a few nights a week so at least one of us sleeps. I leave the house 6am for my commute (back home at 7pm) and feel like I never see my husband as one of us is stationed outside his bedroom all night.

This sounds so exhausting for everyone. I do sympathise.

It sounds like he is wired which is causing him to be somewhat frantic at bedtime. Try to start bedtime routine earlier and give him a longer wind down time in his room, with a calm atmosphere.

Gradual retreat process may work well for him with you sitting on a cushion by his bed at bedtime until he falls asleep and over a series of nights, move your sitting position to outside the room.

@sadkoala

Hello,

My baby is nearly 11 months old.
He is eating solids through the day and breastfeeding in the morning and evening and sometimes in the afternoon too.

I lay him in bed awake at 7pm and he manages to get himself down.

But he still wakes up through the night to feed usually around 3-4 times and it seems excessive.
First waking is around 10.30/11pm, then 1.30am, 3.30or 4am and then around 6am after which he can still go back down for another hour or so before he is up for the day.

He has a dummy which he only uses for daytime naps and I've also been using it to try to settle him with at night without having to feed him but that usually only gets me another 30mins before he's up and wanting to BF.
I don't believe that he's hungry as he can go for much longer through the day when he's distracted and he doesn't feed for long when he wants it at night.

What can I do to get him to sleep longer and better?

Hi there,

It sounds like he may have developed an association with the feeds when he is transitioning between sleep cycles in the night.

You can use a gradual approach of reducing the length of each night feed and put him back into cot after the feed. He may not be fully asleep and if necessary, use reassurance techniques to settle him to sleep. Keep reducing length of the feed every few nights.

@Yarnswift

Thanks. This is the same advice we’ve had previously. We are already doing all that - he is just incredibly ‘awake’ like his older brother was. We already keep nights quiet and dark and days light, get out in the daylight early, have a rough but flexible routine and watch for sleep cues and are aware of wake times (although they are a source of grim hilarity, allegedly newborns can’t be awake for more than ninety minutes, to which I can only say, my arse. Mine can stay awake all day.)

We are well aware of wake windows, sleep cycles etc - we do watch and try to get him to sleep but it just doesn’t work. If he does drop off he wakes about two minutes later. His brother was the same and I’m extremely concerned he will end up waking hourly for years. I honestly don’t think I can cope if he does.

I’ve been awake for almost four days solidly with only ten minute naps - the baby has been awake (and cheerful, and not even vaguely sleepy) since 2am.

Any advice? How on earth do you actually make the buggers sleep?

Some babies hide their sleep cues well so it is difficult to read when they are getting tired. Sounds like your little one is one of these!

So try to put him down after around 90 minutes of awake time regardless of whether he looks tired or not. Keep this up for the whole day to build his daytime 'sleep tank'.

You may want to consider a more personalised plan in an appointment with one of the Wellvine sleep consultants. If you would like to find out more about the service, you can look us up here try.wellvine.co.uk/wellvine_mumsnet/

@LisaSimpsonsbff

What do you think of the ethics around the 'baby sleep industry'? There are so many books and products you can buy that promise better sleep - if anyone had anything that was genuinely foolproof they would be enormously rich and world famous. Is there not an element of exploiting vulnerable parents here?

I agree there is so much information available both in books and online and it can be a minefield for parents. Each family have different parenting approaches and preferences and it can be overwhelming with so much information available. We help parents find the right approach for them and their baby and often what parents are looking for is understanding, guidance, and support.

Hi, we are having such a great response from all of you parents here on Mumsnet. I am here for the next hour to answer any questions you may have.

Sam

@KimchiLaLa

My baby is 12 months. She sleeps 8-7.45 the majority of the time. Our issue is self settling. She must be held while falling asleep. We don't want to do CIO, and most consultants just advise putting her down awake - which is difficult as she then cries! For naps she can take minutes to settle, for nighttime it's usually around 20 mins.

How do we do a gentle form of training?

Can I also have some advice on her routine. She wakes 7.30/7.45 as we wake her. She sleeps every 3 hours in the day and after 4 hours at night. So 10.30am - 30min nap. Then 1.30pm - 1.5/2 hour nap. Should we be tweaking this?

@WellVineSam

[quote KimchiLaLa] My baby is 12 months. She sleeps 8-7.45 the majority of the time. Our issue is self settling. She must be held while falling asleep. We don't want to do CIO, and most consultants just advise putting her down awake - which is difficult as she then cries! For naps she can take minutes to settle, for nighttime it's usually around 20 mins.

How do we do a gentle form of training?

Can I also have some advice on her routine. She wakes 7.30/7.45 as we wake her. She sleeps every 3 hours in the day and after 4 hours at night. So 10.30am - 30min nap. Then 1.30pm - 1.5/2 hour nap. Should we be tweaking this?

[/quote]

Hi, let's start with the naps as this sounds perfect for her age, the fact that she settles for bed quickly and sleeps all night means she is getting what she needs. Generally, around the age of 12-15 months, they drop to just one nap after lunch but it doesn't sound like your little one is ready for that yet.

There are many methods of sleep training and every parent has a preference and babies all respond differently so finding a method that works for you all is the key as its really important to stay consistent. There are gentle, gradual retreat methods which can take a couple of weeks so maybe that's the right way forward for you.

In a brief outline, you would put her down very relaxed even drowsy but awake and stay with her until she falls asleep, either with your hands gently on her or sitting next to the cot. You repeat this for a few nights and then gradually over a couple of weeks reduce your support and length of time you stay. If you would like more information and support, please look online take a look at, try.wellvine.co.uk/wellvine_mumsnet/

I thought I had got over the 4 month sleep regression with my little one, but apparenty not. He goes down for bed around 6 (6:30pm at the latest) and then he will whine for a mintue or two at around 8pm and then fall asleep. He will then wake up for about 2am for a breastfeed and then go back to sleep, but thereafter he will wake up at 3am, 4am and 5am and will cry and cry unless I breastfeed him. It's difficult to pick him up as as soon as I do he will start going for my breast even though i'm sure it's not hunger, shhh/pat doesn't work, rocking his crib doesn't work. What usually happens is I give up after an hour and by 4am he is in bed with me breastfeeding and sleeping at the same time. He is now 5.5 months.

Would be grateful for any advice. It's not so much that I want him to sleep through, I am happy to feed him at 2am, it's just that I now think he just wants suckle all night, which isn't practical or comfortable.

Hi Sam,

People often say that you should put your baby down awake but drowsy. What does this actually look like?

So my baby seems to just have an on and off switch. If eyes open she cries..... if closed she’s asleep and I cross my fingers that she stays this way!

Thanks

@alwayswingingit

I thought I had got over the 4 month sleep regression with my little one, but apparenty not. He goes down for bed around 6 (6:30pm at the latest) and then he will whine for a mintue or two at around 8pm and then fall asleep. He will then wake up for about 2am for a breastfeed and then go back to sleep, but thereafter he will wake up at 3am, 4am and 5am and will cry and cry unless I breastfeed him. It's difficult to pick him up as as soon as I do he will start going for my breast even though i'm sure it's not hunger, shhh/pat doesn't work, rocking his crib doesn't work. What usually happens is I give up after an hour and by 4am he is in bed with me breastfeeding and sleeping at the same time. He is now 5.5 months.

Would be grateful for any advice. It's not so much that I want him to sleep through, I am happy to feed him at 2am, it's just that I now think he just wants suckle all night, which isn't practical or comfortable.

Hi , It's great that your little one is going down at a regular time each evening, then settling himself at 8ish. Breastfeed babies often feed lots at night as so easily distracted in the day so maybe try feeds in the quiet if possible in the day so less distraction. If the 2 am feed is a dreamy feed for him , he maybe not taking a full feed, so maybe try keeping him awake a little during the feed . Do you have a partner who could maybe try and settle him at one of the wakes ups if your sure his not hungry ? as you find he only wants the breast if you pick him up - just a thought .

Hope this helps
Sam

@StinkySaurus

Hi Sam,

People often say that you should put your baby down awake but drowsy. What does this actually look like?

So my baby seems to just have an on and off switch. If eyes open she cries..... if closed she’s asleep and I cross my fingers that she stays this way!

Thanks

Hi , thanks for your question.It really depends on how old they are, if tiny then this is often the case, they are one or the other. Once older then Its putting them down relaxed and calm but not asleep and then if needed keeping your hands gently on them while they have a little fidget and settle down and drift off .

Good Luck
Sam

Just as a quick follow up, my baby is 8 months.. so should I be putting her down calm with eyes open? Thank you!

Try to start bedtime routine earlier and give him a longer wind down time in his room, with a calm atmosphere.

We’ve tried different times but we can’t start much earlier as he/my husband are home 6.30pm and me 7pm.

Gradual retreat process may work well for him with you sitting on a cushion by his bed at bedtime until he falls asleep and over a series of nights, move your sitting position to outside the room.

We have tried this too and he Close mbs out of bed to sit on us!

WellVineSam thank you for your advice. Yep she's definitely not ready to drop a nap, when I've cut that morning nap down, she has been massively sleepy afterwards, and if we cut it out completely, she wouldn't be happy at all. Thank you for suggesting gradual retreat too...if I'm honest in the past we've sort of tried this but never stuck to it, and she loves being cuddled before bed so even if we sit there, she just sits up and cries OR (actually even worse!) thinks it's ok to just play and sits up and smiles at us!

Hi Wellvine

My daughter is 3 years and 4 months. When she little sleep was difficult and we struggled but then when she was nearly 2 she started sleeping 12 hours and we could put her in her cot awake, she would fall asleep and we didn’t hear from her again until the morning, that lasted for nearly a year and then she got a bug and we comforted her through the night and have had issues since then. For almost 6 months i have ended up sitting in her room waiting with her to fall asleep holding her hand, usually takes about 20 minutes so I don’t mind That. Tried gradual retreat etc but it didn’t work. We did controlled crying when she was younger and it was very effective in a very short period of time but I can’t bring myself to try it again. Because I am sitting in there holding her hand until she is asleep of course then when she wakes in the night she realises I am not there and she ends up crying and upset til I go in, this happens on average at least twice a night. I’m not quite sure how to break the habit and deal with it. Leaving her to drop off to sleep on her own I know is the answer probably but she gets so so upset and gradual retreat/vanishing chair didn’t work. Any advice you have for me would be really well received. Thank you in advance.

Really hoping I'm not too late with this as I just want reassurance I'm doing the right thing..

DD is 18 weeks, but was 4wks prem. She's catnapped 30-45min naps since around 8wks old. Hates the car seat, and the sling will sleep in the pram but still doesn't get past a sleep cycle.

At night she goes to bed at 630/7, usually without a problem and now we've hit the sleep regression she's waking up for her dummy to be put back in every 2hrs. She has a small bottle (max 3.5oz) around 2am. Usually around 5ish she's quite awake so I bring her to bed with me and she goes back to sleep til around 630.

Her naps are awful. I know this is normal. The 'first half' of each nap is generally good, I can put her down, often sleepy but awake. Once she's woken however, she won't go back off. If I can get her back to sleep, she wakes as soon as I put her down again.

We have black out blinds, white noise, comforter, dummy, routine all already in place. Pick up put down makes her worse and always results in not being able to put her down due to the state she's got herself into.

So my plan is simply to survive until she's through the regression. Ie, cosleep if needed, if she needs to nap on me then I will allow her to do so. I just want her to nap through whatever means necessary!Once we're through I'll look at gradual retreat as this worked with my little boy.

Does this sound sensible? I'm very nervous of creating more crutches I'll need to address later. Also, how would you suggest getting rid of the dummy? We don't want to keep it up longer than we have to for the SIDS benefits but equally, she's reliant on it!

TIA and sorry for epic post!

Is it too late to start trying to sleep train a one year old? He has never really slept through the night but for the past three/four months he has woken more and more frequently to the point where we are getting no sleep at night

@PirateMermaid

Try to start bedtime routine earlier and give him a longer wind down time in his room, with a calm atmosphere.

We’ve tried different times but we can’t start much earlier as he/my husband are home 6.30pm and me 7pm.

Gradual retreat process may work well for him with you sitting on a cushion by his bed at bedtime until he falls asleep and over a series of nights, move your sitting position to outside the room.

We have tried this too and he Close mbs out of bed to sit on us!

Hi again,

In order to get more personalised advice, and discuss options in more detail check out the service we offer at Wellvine try.wellvine.co.uk/wellvine_mumsnet/. You can go online and make an appointment with any of our experienced sleep consultants.

Hey

My son is 6 months this week

He used to sleep 9-6 but now wales 1230, 330 and 6

What's the ideal bedtime for this age, idea of last feed and naps?

And will moving him to his own room help....