Lots of CC threads at the moment, got me wondering

[Othersideofthechannel]

does no one just leave older babies/toddlers who are old enough to understand the words 'It's the middle of the night, it's time to sleep' to cry until they fall asleep when they don't require a feed (or change or dummy retrieval or other practical parental assistance) but just need to learn to self-soothe and go back to sleep by themselves.

It's very common here in France.

Actually, I should say that it is commonly recommended by childcare professionals. I don't know what mums actually do except French SIL who hasn't been faced with it - one perfect sleeper and one with health problems where it was out of the question.

Hmmm - older babies...no - wouldnt understand.

Toddlers - well - if it was so easy folk wouldnt be posting here about it.

It really depends what you mean by older babies/toddlers. What age are we talking about here?

I am personally on the softly-softly side, I was still b/feeding my dd's at night until they were 18 months old and co-slept for longer than that, but I have friends who I think did leave their child to it.

I am still shocked at the "what to expect" book which recommends letting babies cry it out at six months of age.

well I did the pick them up, soothe put them back down thing, from a few days old (yes days!!) and they self soothed to sleep from the start (well a few days) - I couldn't do co-sleeping!!!! Also depends on how view crying and what kind of crying, I could never leave a baby, toddler, child, adult distressed. Crying is communicating.

My non-sleeper child (long story from health problems as a baby) often gets up in the night to visit us and when told it's the middle of the night will go back to bed most disappointed!

"just need to learn to self-soothe and go back to sleep by themselves."

That's a huge judgement there, not a sel-evident fact. Many of us don't think that children should have to learn to self-soothe in an ideal world until they are ready for it - at which point they will do so without tears.

It is good for young children to ask for emotional comfort and receive it. The inconvenient part is that young children ofen need comfort at all times of the day and night, not just when we happen to be awake for the day.

I suppose I meant about 9 months onwards. Obv they're all different, but many don't need a nighttime feed by then and are old enough to understand the difference between day and night.

My ds is 10.5 months and I still strongly feel that if he wants milk at night, he can have it. Will carry on like this for many months to come. With both my dd's I felt that it was only when they were coming up to two years' of age that they could really understand rules like "no milk when dark".

I agree entirely with FandZ's post.

You really think a 9 month old understands that much?

What does "don't need" a night time feed mean? You mean that they won't starve without it? A 9 month old babies wants for comfort and food are its needs.

Gawd my posts are littered with typos and errors tonight. Apologies.

Franny, I don't want to judge anyone. I know from skimming other threads that there are many people that think that children should be soothed. But what I haven't seen is anyone who think that they need to learn at a young (but not newborn) age. I just wondered whether the sort of practice recommended over here is never recommended/carrried out in the UK.

I think they only understand things if you've helped them learn those things though which can be tricky and so dependent on your and their personality. DD4 sucked her fingers to sleep from birth and flicked her whoozit cot bumper from about 10 weeks old (slept thru from a few days old), dd2 sucked her thumb and stroked her bunny from 4 months (when I realised she wasn't feeding once per night just having 1 min comfort suck) dd1 didn't wake for night feeds from 7 weeks but ended up with a dummy. DD3 had health problems but had her rabbit from about a year old - again she slept through 95% of the time from a couple of weeks old. I was very fortunate!

Otherside I think that plenty of people do think it, yes

there are whole schools of childcare based on it

When I said judgement I didn't mean that you were judging those parents who didn't agree, but that you were making the judgement that a baby's need to be soothed in the night as irrelevant.

I think car girl has answered my question. A 'one minute comfort suck' is not because of hunger it is because they require comfort.

Okay "self soothed" I can't remember dd1 that well but dd2 seemed to be thrilled to be in her cot in her own in the dark - think she was too squashed on the inside! She didn't want to be cuddle - complained! DD4 the opposite wanted to be held and I just couldn't do attachment parenting so I taught her to lie on her own to go to sleep but that I would cuddle her etc and it didn't involve leaving her to complain for more than a minute at a time!

I think babies with traumatic births could have a much rougher time adjusting to the outside world. Let's face it there is very little real help/advice/guidance out there to help you survive the early months.

Some babies need feeding because of hunger

some babies need feeding because of comfort

if you prefer not to feed and can provide another form of comfort then your baby will manage ok

if you expect them to learn themselves that nobody is going to comfort them in the night however distressed they become, and for whatever reason (how do you KNOW that a baby isn't hungry?), then IMO you are depriving that baby of something important that they need for their development.

Comfort suck - I've got 4 of them who all comfort suck just not me and not milk! I traded dd1 to give up her dummy at 5 on the advice of the dentists the others prefer thumb/fingers so not sure if I'll ever trade them to give that up! My dd3 still needs the comfort of coming to visit us during the night so my only action plan is cranial osteopathy to see if they can help her at all to stop her waking so easily during the night as it's linked to baby health problems. She can get herself off to sleep no problems jsut gets bored during the night when awake!

All children are different though and I think you can tell the sort of cry that is distress and which is "sod this, I wish to wake the whole house and play"

dd1 would wake up, cry/whinge but I just could sense she would go back to sleep, which she would

dd2 is a WHOLE different ball game. She always needed more comforting and yes, can be a pain - but she is 2.6yrs old and sobs and sobs if she is left.

So if she ends up in our bed 3 times a week, so be it.

I say go with your gut, it is very rarely wrong.

The advice I was given over here was that if you have checked the baby doesn't need any practical help but only needs comforting, you only do it once. A cuddle or pat or whatever and then explain that it is time to sleep and parent will not be coming back even if baby objects by crying. They say that by coming back to comfort will just encourage the baby to depend on you when it should be learning to self soothe.
So yes, I guess they are saying the comfort needs are irrelevant once the baby is old enough to understand that nighttime is for sleeping.
And yes VVV, I do believe that at 9 months they can understand this much.

I've never done cc because I've never had to but I have put with a baby screaming 16 hours a day unless being carried in a particular way due to acid reflux it was hell for everyone.

I wish there was a lot more help given to parents in teaching them how to understand the different cries etc so people never need to resort to cc. I can really see the appeal of attachment parenting I think it must be hugely reassuring to the child wish i could have done it!

Oliveoil, my children are too old for it to be an issue now. Well, DD is only 2.5 but when she wakes in the night it's usually because she's lost her soft toy and once it's found she goes off without any protest.
My problem is her early rising but that's another story.

"by coming back to comfort will just encourage the baby to depend on you when it should be learning to self soothe."

I find that advice completely depressing. The concept that encouraging your baby to depend on you is something wrong that should be avoided.

Whose benefit is this advice being given for? And no I am not some kind of martyred mother who believes you should lay down your life for your child's convenience, but denying a child the basic need of comfort just because you would rather be asleep is wrong.

A 9 month old doesn't understand that you only care about her needs during the day. I'm 35 and I don't understand it!

I am sometimes surprised by what some people go through at night with their children. I think about myself as fairly strict about bedtime and nighttime. Having said that, this week DD woke up sobbing really badly, and managed to choke out the words "I haven't got any covers" which DH says he could never have interpreted, and I was reading in bed and had been in and checked her covers just before so she'd only had a few minutes to misplace them. When she has nightmares I pick her up and cuddle her but within seconds she is reaching out for her bed again. Also this week DH and I have each sat with her once while she has gone to sleep - really unusual here, but we are going through the dropping the nap phase. So not 100% strict.

at french shool of thought! Go back one only!!!!!!!!!!

So what happens if you child is in pain but you haven't realised! Or is it only us who've had a baby refusing to sleep/be in cot in the middle of the night, no temperature seems fine but after 4 days you find out they've got viral earache!