Lots of CC threads at the moment, got me wondering

[Othersideofthechannel]

does no one just leave older babies/toddlers who are old enough to understand the words 'It's the middle of the night, it's time to sleep' to cry until they fall asleep when they don't require a feed (or change or dummy retrieval or other practical parental assistance) but just need to learn to self-soothe and go back to sleep by themselves.

It's very common here in France.

Aloha - I did a form of CC with DS at 10.5 months. His sleep also only really improved after our loft conversion when we moved upstairs and were no longer sharing a room. He sleeps better during the day now, at 2 yrs than he EVER did.

It may have been the case that my snoring was disturbing him, however, he couldnt sleep in the day either. He was rubbish at it. Its how i found MN - was desperately seeking help. I even bought a certain book by a certain guru

DD had always slept fabulously so it was such a shock when DS came along.

I do firmly believe that it is utterly normal for a child to wake regularly up to 6 months and to be expected. If they do sleep through before then its a bonus.

Folk that think a baby should sleep through from a few weeks old or earlier are bonkers, iMO!

If my child wakes in the night and cries - they are not left now, we know that they are crying for a reason now, if that makes sense?

I think there can be room for hurt feelings on both sides of the debate

I have read posts about how children have suffered from being "allowed" to wake in the night through babyhood and beyond

my ds did not sleep through until he was 3 years old, so we were frequently up in the night with him and at times I know he was getting less sleep than he should have been

I think if I did not feel sure I had done the right thing for our family, it would make me very uncomfortable to read those posts implying that children need parents to take charge and impose some discipline at night times, do you know what I mean?

I also dont prescribe to the "just leaving them to cry it out" method that folk think is CC.

I have seen the other thread now, and I can totally see why you are so angry. Rightly too.

My advice on MN is always the same. Would never do it with a tiny baby, would look at other possible causes for waking, would make sure they weren't teething, starving or ill, would try shhing and patting etc, and then go to cc. I also say that if your child is, say waking once or twice a night for two minutes, then to be blooming grateful! But I tell you, I can tell a desperate woman when I hear one, and I really empathise with them.

some asshole on another thread called me an AP and aloha believes him. for a journo? go figure.

"I also say that if your child is, say waking once or twice a night for two minutes, then to be blooming grateful"

amen to that

I get in bed with my children every single night to read them stories by the way. We spent the afternoon rolling down hills in the park. Last night my two year old had a nightmare and I got into bed with her happily and willingly. Every single morning I clean up my five year old's pooey nappy without complaint. But it's a lot easier to do these things if you have had some sleep...speaking of which....

wow. just saw this from aloha.

i must have said something that must have cut close to her bone sometime in the past.

whatever it was aloha,

ssssoooooorrrreeeeee!!!!!

i hope you only think of this of me an not all the other working mums who use Mumsnet!

Full time daycare? You disgusting monster. You aren't a parent at all. You just let strangers mind your baby as if she was an animal in a zoo.

Actually, I don't think that. But bloody hell, to be lectured on parenting by you makes me laugh. Don't you know anything about glass houses?

Id say you were most definitely detached, kiskidee, dont worry

none of mine have ever been good sleepers. probably why i can now survive on minimum sleep now as have been doping it for 7years.

i have had dd1 tearing her skin off all night since she was a baby

dd2 yelping, screaming, night terrors, sleep walking, getting voilent etc in the middle of the night

and dd3 is my star now at age 2 she sleeps about 10 hours a night. but took her till she was over 2 to do this. and that involved CC and moving her into a room with the other 2 girls.

i was so desperate one night for her not to wake up as soon as i went to bed (she was in my room as dh is in her room) then i slept on the sofa. didnt work as dd2 did a night wander and screamed when i wasnt in my bed.

oh Amen to that Aloha. You can cope with anything if you have had adequate sleep.

I totally understand the sick feeling having been jolted from a deep sleep too.

sicky heady vomit inducing woken suddenly from deep sleep feeling.

have also done the staying up late to avoid that feeling.

Language, kiskidee!

would never do controlled crying. but thats just a personal this. mine have never slept throught for any period of time ( 3 of them)

Wow, this has got a bit out of hand!

I'm not asking for opinions for and against controlled crying, there are plenty of other threads about that.

I'm asking whether anyone has ever tried or been advised to 'just leave them to cry so they learn to fall asleep alone'.

From what I understand, this advice concerns babies/children who are crying because they are tired and want to go back to sleep but don't know how. When the parent feels confident they have eliminated other possibilities, they just leave the child to cry rather than coming back in after a designated period of time to soothe before leaving.

Message withdrawn

I checked the 'What to Expect' book that someone mentioned early (I'd forgotten I had it), and they describe more or less what I am referring to, calling it 'crying it out' and consider it as a possibility, depending on your parenting style, from the age of 6 months.

OCC, if you survey the wreckage of last night?s debate on this thread and on this one which went on in parallel you probably get a good idea of why Crying It Out won?t find many takers at Mumsnet.

For me, the trouble with CIO/standard extinction is that there is a sense of abandoning your child because whether she cries for 5 or 50 minutes you will not come back.

Call me soft but I personally can?t really cope with that, dw and I prefer to keep the lines of communication open, to check on her on a regular basis. (oh, she has woken up now, sorry must log off in a sec) even though we do agree with the concept of learning to self-soothe and letting her cry/whinge/grumble for short intervals.

OK, so not many takers on mumsnet. I'd worked that one out!
But are there people out there in RL who do it? I mean do people know people who have done it? Or is it something that is completely passé?

OCC, yes, many people.

We live in West London and a lot of mothers dw has met
used CC and CIO to get their babies sleeping through at a much younger age than 9 months even.

You know about the recent publicity surrounding Mumsnet?
It is part of the reason why those people are less likely to be on Mumsnet.

Is there a French equivalent to Mumsnet? And are there no similar debates around crying-is-ok vs crying-is-evil? What about real life?

Hi all, just a post to say I really regret losing my temper last night. I committed the cardinal sin of letting someone whose opinions I simply don't value at all and whose posting style I found utterly offensive, drag me down to her level.
Oh for PPH's detachment!
I obviously do not condemn anyone who has to use full time childcare. Most people I know work and use some kind of childcare and have great children. I just found it highly ironic that someone who regarded AP sites as gospel and who thought anyone who let their child cry for five minutes in the safety of their own cot and own home with their parents nearby was evil and inadequate, while having their own baby in full time childcare.

I don't know about you but I could recognise my baby's different crys.

I could differentiate between a grizzle/whinge or a hurt/I want you cry from them being quite small and if it was a grizzle I'd just go and have a quick check and then leave for 5/10 minutes to see if they'd settle. SOmetimes they did, sometimes it developed into a 'I want you cry' and was dealt with accordingly.

I do wish we could give each other a bit of credit and stop accusing.

You know, if we all met for a big fun day out with the kids you'd never be able to tell who was bf/ff, who co-slept and who didn't who had been left to cry for 10 minutes at bedtime, who got an occasional tap on the backside, who'd worn cloth nappies etc. My bet is they'd all look like, normal, healthy happy kids loving and being loved my their mum and dad.

I think what OthersideOC is describing is the old-fashioned way to do "cry it out". Was the hip way to get babies to wait 4 hours between feeds, once upon a time. Before CC became popularised. Old-fashoned CIO VERY frowned upon in modern Anglo-Saxon by parenting gurus and most discussion groups. But see Ezzo (Babywise) for an endorsement. Controlled crying (CC) is suposed to be the "kinder alternative".

Aloha, when someone accuses you of being a bad mother because you might be ?psychologically damaging? your child then who would blame you for being offended?
When it then turns out that this person has no evidence whatsoever, is stubbornly ignoring all the evidence showing that it is safe
and is quoting discredited sources, well, that really takes the cookie.

The conspiracy theorist inside me thinks maybe the lawyer team of a certain person have sent her to prove that Mumsnet needs to be more tightly regulated!!

I would say we proved them wrong last night, the community came together and the usual open-minded but forthright tone prevailed.

You have nothing to apologise for but I am hugely impressed that you did anyway

Daddy J and lljkk, thanks for answering my op so clearly. I don't know about any publicity surrounding mumsnet, just fell upon a thread when I googled for advice a few months ago.

Whatever this said publicity is, if it is preventing people with certain viewpoints from contributing, that would explain why sometimes other viewpoint prevail on mumsnet. I thought it was just that those opposed to any form of leaving to cry, whether controlled or crying it out didn't shout as loud as the others.

There are similar sites in France but I have found the response rate slow so posts don't get replied to for weeks by which time I no longer need the support I was looking for. People aren't so passionately into it as mumsnetters.