Controlled crying - moving from attachment parenting to abandonment parenting?

[tinkerbellhadpiles]

I know this is going to get a few people annoyed so I've put my special teflon knickers and fireproof boots on first. This is a genuine question:
I don't get controlled crying. I've spent a long time thinking about this (mostly at 2am when my DD wakes up hungry). If you put yourself in the place of the child, is this not a movement from attachment parenting to abandonment parenting
You spend all day lavishing attention on your child, when the little one cries you comfort him or her, sacrificing your time to do anything else in favour of looking after her.
Then seven a clock rolls round and you suddenly start ignoring her, until she learns that you just abandon her at nights and gives up and goes to sleep through exaustion or frustration.
To my mind controlled crying is an oxymoron, a child cries because they are out of control, frustrated, hungry or frightened. And if you are sitting there on the stairs sobbing because you can hear her (as a lot of my friends do) then you aren't in control either. Is it just a battle of wills or is there a genuine bit of science in here?
Seriously, will someone PLEASE explain how this actually works?
Incidentally, I don't have a much better solution, my DD (five months) sleeps 7-2:30, has a feed and sleeps till about 6ish. We just deal with it now and honestly I don't mind now I'm used to it. She did wake up every hour for a month when she got to three and a half months and I was fairly psychotic after a week of it and did pick up, put down and that worked to get to the above situation.

Fair enough but I feel I have much more experience than you yet I don't undermine or patronize!

No, Deasterjags she's too busy putting me down!!!

or could it be that common-sense (aka posting reasonable, well thought ideas without looking for a fight) is just too boring?

I must say that almost nothing irritates me more than when I take the time to consider a person's point of view on here, take the time to post a reply only to be ignored.

I am thinking potatoes.

scottishthistle...I assume though, that you are also a mohter not just Maternitynurse/Nanny kinda thing?
Must admit though, got friends that were nannies BEFORE having Kids, and all of them said, they expected to feel quite competent and experienced, and then found out that indeed they were just the typical first time mom, and that all teh previous experiences in teh world could not have prepared them for the impact of their own lil bundle/s....

These are the tip of a huge iceberg. There are hundreds of studies of sleep training. These are just a few from a quick search, as I really should be doing an interview right now.

"Behavior Characteristics and Security in Sleep-Disturbed Infants
Treated with Extinction"
Karyn G. France
University of Canterbury
Journal of Pediatric Psychology 17(4) pp. 467-475, 1992
study here

"Measured and compared the behavior characteristics and security
scores of 35 infants (6?24 months) treated with extinction for sleep
disturbance with those of 13 untreated and 15 normal sleep controls.
There was no evidence of detrimental effects on the treated infants
whose security, emotionality/tension, and likeability scores improved.
The findings are congruent with those from a previous study with
preschoolers and have important implications for the prevention of
later behavior problems in sleep-disturbed children."
This study found that babies (and parents) were happier and healthier
after an ignoring treatment, and the babies cried much less than their
rocked-to-sleep counterparts.

"Treatment of Young Children's Bedtime Refusal and Nighttime Wakings:
A Comparison of ?Standard? and Graduated Ignoring Procedures"
Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology
study here

"Following treatment, only positive side effects were observed. When
compared to the wait-list group, mothers in the standard ignoring
group reported less verbose discipline and decreased stress in
parenting, while mothers in the graduated ignoring group reported
improved parent?child relationships. Treatment gains were maintained
over a 2-month follow-up period."

"Reducing Nocturnal Awakening and Crying Episodes in Infants and Young
Children: A Comparison Between Scheduled Awakenings and Systematic
Ignoring"
PEDIATRICS Vol. 81 No. 2 February 1988, pp. 203-212
Vaughn I. Rickert PsyD and C. Merle Johnson PhD1
study here

full text
According to this study, the well-being of families (both parents and
children) improves after using the extinction method.

"Treatment of sleep problems in families with young children: effects
of treatment on family well-being."

• Eckerberg B. Department of Paediatrics, Falun Hospital, Falun, Sweden. [email protected] study here "CONCLUSION: If parents experience young children's night awakenings as a problem, teaching the children to fall asleep by themselves usually solves this problem quickly. According to parental ratings, family well-being and negative daytime behaviour are also improved."

--

This article recommends early intervention in sleep problems and that
children whose sleep problems are not dealt with will most likely
continue to have sleep problems in ongoing years.

Journal of Pediatrics
1987 Apr;110(4):642-6.

• Kataria S,
• Swanson MS,
• Trevathan GE. study here

dejags. sorry you felt ignored. i should be thinking potatoes too. but was folding clothes.

POint, is...and I know I have made this a few times in this thread...that often people who think CC is teh worst ever sort of compare it to neglect...as what happens with Russian orphans, or in that nspc ad...where Miles has learned that no one will respond...

however, CC is NOT the same thing, if the child is growing up within a loving and caring environment...you can NOT compare it...you really, really can't!

as far as i can see without paying access fees, those studies evualated the effectiveness of sleep training in preventing night time wakenings. i can't see if they were assessing the safety of it. that is where the distinction between no evidence of harm and evidence of no harm comes into play.

the abstracts don't say how the programme was applied and what methodologies were used to assess effectiveness.

note, i am not making a value judgement on the integrity of what was being looked at.

no problem Kiskidee.

study saying that children whose sleep disorders are treated are MORE secure

dejags, can you look in gardening in about 5 mins as i am about to post a potatoes question.

I don't really know much about potatoes - I was just saying that I should be doing something more productive today than MNetting.

and i could post a link aloha whihc says that there is research out there to say the opposite so we are neither here or there with that.

i believe at least 2 of my links mentions sleep (solitary) in those contexts and referenced them too.

Behavior Characteristics and Security in Sleep-Disturbed Infants Treated with Extinction1
Karyn G. France2
University of Canterbury

2A11 correspondence should be addressed to Karyn G. France, Department of Psychology, University of Canterbury, Chnstchurch 1, New Zealand

Measured and compared the behavior characteristics and security scores of 35 infants (6?24 months) treated with extinction for sleep disturbance with those of 13 untreated and 15 normal sleep controls. There was no evidence of detrimental effects on the treated infants whose security, emotionality/tension, and likeability scores improved. The findings are congruent with those from a previous study with preschoolers and have important implications for the prevention of later behavior problems in sleep-disturbed children.

OK, you don't like the conclusion, but that's not the same as saying it doesn't exist!

waht makes you say i don't like the conclusion.

I'm not a Mother but I have more experience than your average Nanny...I'm 34yrs old with 15yrs experience of live-in Nannying & Maternity Nursing (in the home).

I'm aware that being a Mother is different as you have a much stronger bond & hormones to deal with also which a MN/Nanny don't experience.

However, this is not about whether I'm a Mother or not, many HV's/Doctors are not Parents yet many people ask for their advice...I do hope that I will be able to use certain techniques with my own Baby knowing the benefits...Only time will tell!

that is one of the studies my co-poster referenced and we had a lively discussion about it.

you may want to read what we said on that thread i already asked you to look at. i don't have the time to cover old ground and other posters had pertinient qustions and answers to the discussion too.

it was daddy j who referenced it earlier.

'I'm not a Mother but...' speaks volumes. SWMNBN is not a mother and is also a maternity nurse but lots of mums would not let her touch their babies with a bargepole.

I clicked on your link and found an incredibly long old thread! I see no studies showing any harm from simple sleep training. On the other hand it is pretty easy to find several good studies showing that it can benefit children and their families.

And the studies do NOT (as you say) just look at whether the methods were effective ini producing more sleep (which they were) but also at the infants' psyschological health afterwards!

wow Kiskidee - comparing Scottishthistle to SWWNBN is a bit harsh.

You don't hold back do you?

scottishthistle...the HP's without Kids, tend to give rather rubbish advice that oen shouldn't follow....as does the person who is not to be mentioned on here...not saying you are rubbish and your opinion doesn't count...but it's sort of on a "different" level...if you know what I mean...!

Kiskidee, you just can't help but patronize can you!

I'll leave you to your debate as I've a 3yo needing tucked into bed for her nap!

Also, there are of course plenty of experienced mums and hp's with their own Kids that also don't necessary know it all or give the most brill advice....

I totally, totally, totally disagree that HP's without children are not capable of giving very good advice or the generalisation that most of them give rubbish advice.

That's like saying an oncologist who hasn't had cancer is incapable of advising his/her patients.

I think I need to leave this thread now.