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Controlled crying - moving from attachment parenting to abandonment parenting?

445 replies

tinkerbellhadpiles · 03/04/2007 17:16

I know this is going to get a few people annoyed so I've put my special teflon knickers and fireproof boots on first. This is a genuine question:
I don't get controlled crying. I've spent a long time thinking about this (mostly at 2am when my DD wakes up hungry). If you put yourself in the place of the child, is this not a movement from attachment parenting to abandonment parenting
You spend all day lavishing attention on your child, when the little one cries you comfort him or her, sacrificing your time to do anything else in favour of looking after her.
Then seven a clock rolls round and you suddenly start ignoring her, until she learns that you just abandon her at nights and gives up and goes to sleep through exaustion or frustration.
To my mind controlled crying is an oxymoron, a child cries because they are out of control, frustrated, hungry or frightened. And if you are sitting there on the stairs sobbing because you can hear her (as a lot of my friends do) then you aren't in control either. Is it just a battle of wills or is there a genuine bit of science in here?
Seriously, will someone PLEASE explain how this actually works?
Incidentally, I don't have a much better solution, my DD (five months) sleeps 7-2:30, has a feed and sleeps till about 6ish. We just deal with it now and honestly I don't mind now I'm used to it. She did wake up every hour for a month when she got to three and a half months and I was fairly psychotic after a week of it and did pick up, put down and that worked to get to the above situation.

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
ScottishThistle · 05/04/2007 13:00

Not really sure what you mean by "different level" 3bunnies?

ScottishThistle · 05/04/2007 13:01

I think I need to leave this thread also as it's beginning to get to me & I'm not the sensitive type!

kiskidee · 05/04/2007 13:08

sorry dejags. and shame on me.

kiskidee · 05/04/2007 13:11

aloha, daddyj mentioned that study in his post from:

'By DaddyJ on Thu 08-Mar-07 09:29:53'

and the discussion continued for a while after that.

3easterbunniesandnomore · 05/04/2007 13:11

well, I also said that jsut because you have Kids doesn't necessarily make you right, lol!
I mean, the way you care on a proffessional level for a child is different and you can't compare it...it's difficult to explain....

Lets just say, ebfore I had Kids I had plans to maybe convert into paediatric Nursing, as I really enjoyed working in teh paediatric Unit I worked in, but after having Kids, I now would not consider it anymore, as my attitude to Kids has changed...not sure if that makes sense...

OK, dejags, just my eprsonal experience then...fine...

sunnyjim · 05/04/2007 13:12

wait until your darling DD is 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 and STILL waking at 2.30am. or maybe waking at 9pm, 11pm, 1pm, 3am and 5am.

Then maybe you will get why some parents find that they need to help their darling angels realise that it the middle of the night mummy or daddy isn't going to be lavishing attention on you!

as others have said CC isn't about abandoning your child, if done properly it is about checking your child is okay and then teaching them through example that if they are dry, fed, warm and safe, once they are in their cot it is sleeping time.

I hav't read the whoel thread but noticed some peopel giving that old story of 'well if you co-sleep or co-room' then your baby wont' wake up or will eb soothed easily as they are crying for attention.

thats bollocks! maybe it works for some people, CC works for some people too!

DS DOESN'T go to sleep if you are in the room or bed with him! not only that but he sits up and bounces on you! and then screams.

Here are my experiences of sleep solutions;

So bottle feeding to sleep - wonderful idea and then they just grow out of that? and don't need a bottle every time they wake up. NOPE, DS had a sleep association with a bottle until he was 14 months. Okay for some people that might not be a problem but 3 -5 night wakngs for at least 30 minutes each time was killing all of us by this time

co -sleeping; no way, not only am I a light sleeper - I can't share a room with another adult, but DS is an active sleeper and once he got past 8 months he was an active NOT sleeper if there was anyone to play with. He onyl falls asleep in bed with you if he is absolutly exahusted - and i'm not keen on the idea of him not sleeping except for two hours between 6am and 8m through sheer exhaustion.

Pickup putdown, worked a bit, the Shh pat was better but Ds is VERY active and we spent 4 weeks trying this with him sitting bolt uprigth hodling his arms out and screaming for over 3 hrs most nights.

swaddling/sleepsafe best thign we did. DS gets himself in a sate and can't seem to quieten down - classic hyperactive states. So we had to use swaddling, then growbags and a sleepsafe to keep him lying down. If he physiclal couldn't roll over, flail his arms about, sit up etc he would relax and dop off far quicker.

gradual withdrawal. Best method to use prior to CC. We had a bottle associaiton so we used GW together with the sleepsafe etc to wean him off the bottle and learn it was okay to lie down and mum or dad would stay in the room but not hold him.

CC - once DS got past 18months I did CC all the way. I go in and chekc on him once, change nappy and offer a drink. If he is scremaing hystericlaly i check for sleep terror or illness. but most of the time he is either very sleepy or he is playing up. How do I know he is playing up? because when you go in he hides his head under the blanket, stops crying and starts giggling, then he wriggles further and further down the bed playing hide and seek!

I woudlnt' do CC before 1yr, because I coudlnt' tell the difference between his cries as well then and because before 1 yr I felt he might still need to feed etc in the night.

We're now down to 1 night waking or early wake ups most nights, I'm trying to break this habit but with little success. I think we ay have to accept oen sleepy drink of water a night until he is old enough to handle a cup on his own in the dark.

3easterbunniesandnomore · 05/04/2007 13:14

oh and scottish thistle, I really didn't mean to offend you and am sorry if I have...so apologies

ScottishThistle · 05/04/2007 13:20

I'm not comparing what I do with what a Mother does though, I was very stupidly just giving my opinion on cc...How silly of me to think that 15yrs of experience would count!

Thankfully there are a lot of Mother's who do ask for & value my advice as I've helped many a Mother whom was on the doorstep of depression!

ScottishThistle · 05/04/2007 13:28

3bunnies you didn't offend me.

Without asking a MN/Nanny what her actual childcare experience is one can not judge the value of the advice she gives.

sunnyjim · 05/04/2007 13:31

ofgs soemoen si STILL bringing up that niave arguemnt about what is natural b=for babies sleep patterns?

WE DON@T KNOW!!!

babies of today (and the past 100 years) are nto the same as 'natural' mammals. Their daytime patterns, the wealth of experiences they have, their devleopmentla path - inlcuidn glearnign tot alk etc, their toll using ability etc are ALL different to thos of mammals sleeping cosily in a den.

There are still some cultures were co-sleeping is more the norm, but I might remind you that one of threasons this may work is because cultural and societal expectations are for it to be done! Also many of these cultrues and societies are ones in which mum and dad don't wake up to a grey UK morning, bills in the post, older kids to get to school and jobs to go to.

Maybe I would co-sleep, BF and let DS set his own pace of the day if we could lie in a hammock all day in the sunshine!

And for whoever posted about BFing and implied that it was the best option to help babies sleep
again, compelte bollocks, It is for some babies but not for all. DS BFing meant, on and off sucking for over an hour each time, ongoing weight loss, DS drinking blood, depressed and suicidal mum and NO SLEEP for either of us!

My job as a parent is to help DS develop the skills and knowledge he needs to live independantly, be happy and succed in the world around him.
One of those skills is getting enough sleep at night
another bit of knowledge is that the world does not revolve around him and that other people have needs too -(isn't this about sharing and emathy?)

I don't rush to him every time he cries in the day or in the night. He DOES need to learn that I am a seperate person because learnign this is one of the building blocks for him learning how to do things himself - and the look of glee on his face when he does learn how to do things on his own is fabby!

3easterbunniesandnomore · 05/04/2007 14:33

scottish thistle, and sometimes it probably is easier to think straight when you are not hormonally implicated by being a mum
Bloody hormones....lol....

Psycho · 05/04/2007 15:37

This 'you can't give advice unless you are a mother', despite all Scottishthistle's experience is really unpleasant.

(not direct at you 3eaterbunnies, glad you've made up)

I was a child psychologist before and after I had children. Having children has not changed my practise at all. The theory is the same and strategies for approaching difficulties are the same.

What has changed is how I feel. I feel much more empathy for struggling parents, I can imagine much more clearly their distress and pain at facing problems with their children, and I am much more emotional about at seeing distressed children.

But these are my feelings I honestly don't think I'm a better psychologist. I was good at expreesing empathy before children, and eqaully as good now. I am just imagining the pain myself more now.

Saying that I often work with children with SEN, and parents who are coming to terms with that. I do not have SEN children myself. Should I not be able to work with them?

What many struggling, depressed, bewildered end-of-their-tether mothers probaly need, is advice from someone who knows alot about different techniques, baby development, and who isn't emotionally paralaysed by the hormonal rush, sleep deprivation,and feelings of inadeuacy that new motherhood can bring.

I'm sure if/when Scottishthistle is in that position herself she'll think 'ah, so this is how stressful it really is.' But I'm sure meanwhile she's got a pretty damn good idea from seeing stressed mothers, listening to them, using her imagination and empathising. That's what empathy is.

Kiskidee, you seem to have not had many of the problems that other mothers have expressed on here( and which you have not acknowledged) by your own rules, are you therfore not qualified to express an opinion?

I think you were were rude and offensive to scottish thistle.

As had been said, you really do seem to lack the ability to emapthise, although to be fair you have not really tried to do so.

3easterbunniesandnomore · 05/04/2007 15:42

eaterbunnies much more apt right now....lol...am reading Jason Vales Chocolate buster book, because I want to bloody rid myself of the stuff...but because I am reading the book chocolate is constantly on my mind and then eaten, lol!
I really hope that this book does as it promises....
totally off topic

Psycho · 05/04/2007 15:42

Sorry if I'm speaking for you Scottishthistle, you are obviously more than capable of speaking for yourself.

I just find it a ridiculous notion.

Psycho · 05/04/2007 15:47

Easter weekend would seem a bad time to attempt to give up chocolate!! I've just bought 2 chocolate bunnies in supermarker and am tempted to eat them this afternoon and get some more tomorrow. What do you think? is that very bad??

I ate DS1's malteser egg last night and have had to replace it today. Easter will be very expensive at this rate

3easterbunniesandnomore · 05/04/2007 15:54

lol Psycho, you sound like me...I now don't buy eastereggs until like last minute...I am impossible..hence me trying to get unhooked...the book is brilliant though, not that everything is news to me or anything...he even mentions Nestle and the Baby milk action in the book...which really impressed me

ScottishThistle · 05/04/2007 16:44

Psycho, thank you for speaking for me...I could speak more for myself but I get bored of my own voice (so to speak) after a few lines!

I'm also ill & was up twice last night with my charge (yes, just like a Mother) so I'm a bit sensitive & emotional!

I'm more than willing to tell my work history to anybody who wishes to know exactly what I have done in the last 15yrs...However it would appear some would rather just tar me with "Nanny not a Mother so how could I possibly understand" brush!

thelady · 05/04/2007 17:35

No personal experience on the giving end. However, I only slept if put to sleep in company, and then left once I was sleeping. Otherwise I screamed for up to 6 hours.... My sister, less than 2 years younger, would only sleep if put in her cot and left to get on with it - she screamed blue murder from being overtired if you tried to walk her to sleep.

Different kids, same parents, big shock!

amijee · 05/04/2007 18:42

kiskdee

you are right that many external people make mums feel like they are doing something wrong if their baby is not sleepin thru at 6 mths.

HOWEVER many mums that post on the sleep thread are like myself - DESPERATE. They have tried ncss, pupd and gradual withdrawal. They arrive at a point where cc is the last resort - i can't imagine anyone doing it lightly - it is horrible hearing your baby cry.

I think psycho raised some extremely good points that you have not answered. It is true that sleep deprivation is linked to depression and depression in mums is bad for kids. it really is the bigger picture that needs to be looked rather than debating the studies about cc.

As for getting back to basics - it's good to try and do what nature intended but not always achievable. I agree i would be more tolerant of my sleep deprivation if i was at home with my ds, had an extended family nearby and could make up sleep in the day. I can't - I have a demanding job making life and death decisions and my family and my husband's family are not nearby.

It's people's individual circumstances that make them unique - so as Atticus said in "To kill a mockingbird" you never really know someone until you step inside their shoes and walk around in them for a while - he was trying to explain empathy to his daughter.

perhaps we all need to learn a bit of that...

MillBill · 05/04/2007 19:06

I held ds while he cried and cried (he wanted b/f). I cajoled him, acted how to sleep with his animals, blah blah blah. Eventually after 50 mins he laid down in his bed and went to sleep (first time ever). Next night took 30 mins (no crying) and last night took about 50 mins (a little crying). But I was always with him. One small step - but at least he can sleep without the boob.

dionnelorraine · 05/04/2007 19:10

Kiskidee

you dont answer challenging questions you just moan at everyone! BORING!!
[yawn]

kiskidee · 06/04/2007 03:20

aloha, i take it you have stepped away from the thread?

"and sorry, not giving anymore personal 'what would you do' scenarios scottishthistle as per what i have said in my last post."

so scottishthistle, you chased me down the road time and again about not giving you a direct answer and ignoring you and disrespecting your experience, getting increasingly upset when i did not give you the answer you wanted to hear. did you go to my (long) post as i asked and see what i said about writing personal and even worse hypothetical situations? i take it you didn't give me just that much time. and didn't read the links either. i got increasingly rude because you were chasing me about something i said i was not going to discuss but you didn't take the hint.

what did you want. attention i was not willing to give? i guess toddlers throw tantrums when this happens.

it is a message board keep some perspective. everyone is not going to be nice to you everytime you want them to be. and it doesn't make them a bad person either. it doesn't make them patronising either. it means you have to take things with a grain of salt or on the chin and move on.

cruisemum1 · 06/04/2007 07:19

i tried cc last night out of desperation and my 7mth old ds slept for 10 hours and is so happy today. cc obviously has its'place

deasterjags · 06/04/2007 11:58

that's great Cruisemum

Aloha · 06/04/2007 12:03

It's like a miracle, isn't it cruisemum Bet the sun is shining extra brightly for you today!