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Controlled crying - moving from attachment parenting to abandonment parenting?

445 replies

tinkerbellhadpiles · 03/04/2007 17:16

I know this is going to get a few people annoyed so I've put my special teflon knickers and fireproof boots on first. This is a genuine question:
I don't get controlled crying. I've spent a long time thinking about this (mostly at 2am when my DD wakes up hungry). If you put yourself in the place of the child, is this not a movement from attachment parenting to abandonment parenting
You spend all day lavishing attention on your child, when the little one cries you comfort him or her, sacrificing your time to do anything else in favour of looking after her.
Then seven a clock rolls round and you suddenly start ignoring her, until she learns that you just abandon her at nights and gives up and goes to sleep through exaustion or frustration.
To my mind controlled crying is an oxymoron, a child cries because they are out of control, frustrated, hungry or frightened. And if you are sitting there on the stairs sobbing because you can hear her (as a lot of my friends do) then you aren't in control either. Is it just a battle of wills or is there a genuine bit of science in here?
Seriously, will someone PLEASE explain how this actually works?
Incidentally, I don't have a much better solution, my DD (five months) sleeps 7-2:30, has a feed and sleeps till about 6ish. We just deal with it now and honestly I don't mind now I'm used to it. She did wake up every hour for a month when she got to three and a half months and I was fairly psychotic after a week of it and did pick up, put down and that worked to get to the above situation.

OP posts:
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3easterbunniesandnomore · 05/04/2007 10:06

Well, to be fair to Kiskidee, she did say she wasn't gonna continue on the thread.

kiskidee · 05/04/2007 10:22

wot dejags said: "well I disagree with your statement that they all become light sleepers at this stage. That's a sweeping generalisation."

wot i said: "may i suggest more reading on how the infant brain develops between say 12 wks and 16 wks?"

how dejags interpreted it: "Kiskidee, your post about me reading more was condescending in the extreme"

I am sorry but i didn't tell you to 'read more' as if i thought you didn't read enough. That sounds like a misinterpretation of my post. i qualitatively implied that you may not be aware of how infant sleep changes and why at a certain stage and reading more about that would help.

if it was too brusque, i apologize as i said, i am spending too much time on the net.

i do not want to take the 'moral high ground' to say one sleep method is better than another as others have suggested.

i take my position on CC based fact that there is no study, never mind a bank of studies to assess the effects (positive or not) of CC. we know its effectivity, that is all. we also know that cc doesn't always work. we also know by looking at how babies sleep in sleep labs in many variations of sleep environments and flag up discrepancies on why solitary infant sleep can cause problems for infants (and parents). which is why the routine advice to CC must be questioned and CC itself studied very carefully. I go back to the saying 'no evidence of harm is not the same thing as evidence of no harm'.

because there are a lot of studies on infant sleep which shows the benefits of co-sleeping - in its many forms (so many people assume co-sleeping means bedsharing only, or only all night bedsharing.) bedsharing is one kind of co-sleeping. Co-sleeping is a continuum of sleeping habits that extends from all night in the same bed to not in the bed at all but only in the same room. I don't get into discussions by backing myself into a corner. as arguementative as i may come across at times, it is due to lack of time that i do not measure my words. i apologize for that.

Another reason i take a strong position on CC is that so many people have been pressured by friends, family, hv and national sleep policy about where and how a baby should sleep and that usually means alone, in a cot, in a different room - the usual objective of CC - and some cheekily suggest with a few walls between parents and baby. It ignores the reality that a lot of people co-sleep some of the time and often with a great amount of guilt but would do so more happily if the gov't or their freinds family etc, was honest with them or even knew that co-sleeping is safe and beneficial in many physical and emotional ways and is even safer than solitary sleep when cosleeping is done following a few simple guidelines.

see research by Ball, Hooker et al in the Sleep lab at Durham University which found that more than of 40% respondents co-slept than they intended to do before their babies were born. Why they co-slept is another minefield of contradictions, social values, and guilt and can take 20 yrs of scientific debate and still not come to a quorum.

A lot of co-sleeping is done as reactive co-sleeping. When adults do it as a last resort to solve the conditioning of a sleep habit that did not 'take'. ie usually solitary sleep for an infant. Reactive co-sleeping comes with a different set of baggage than non-reactive co-sleeping (ie, cosleeping out of choice or tradition.)

I also take a strong position on sleep i strongly advocate breastfeeding and because infant sleep is inextricably tied to feeding method. As more women bf, the more 'sleep issues' they will face because bf babies sleep differently from ff ones. family, friends, and health professionals put pressure on them to have their babies sleep more like ff ones which anadvertently or not encourage mothers to wean their babies from the breast and to practice sleep training which may be going against the grain of their instinct or objectives.

Most of the sleep research on which the national policies of the UK and US are based on reseach which were conducted with ff babies sleeping alone in a cot when this set of circumstances is not how sleep evolved in babies. we are asked to make our babies conform to a set of sleeping conditions that are totally alien to their more normal sleep expectations.

That health professionals (never mind) lay people routinely tell parents to let their baby CIO or CC or whatever when they do not consider the unique family circumstances or even recommend it for babies taht are too young, or don't even give people an understanding of what really to do when they say 'control cry', or 'sleep train' or 'self soothe' etc.

Because i come from a culture where parents routinely sleep with their babies in the same room, same hammock, bed, etc, and we don't view children as having 'sleep problems'. so it made me ask a lot of questions when my midwife told me my (newborn) baby was 'comfort sucking' and that 'i must not hold my baby too much' etc, etc. and i found lots of answers for questions i too ignorant to ask. i also found that it had answers to questions about my own cultural experiences. because i have questioned those too.

Because national policy on infant sleep dictates solitary sleep as the 'best' thing for my baby and many parents find out taht their babies don't conform to national policy and then become unsure of what to do next. Ferber, or SWMNBN, et al don't tell you what to do when sleep training doesn't take either so then, what.

I take a strong position not because i want to take the moral high ground, or because i want to justify what i do (i am so past that in age and experience.) I was stupid enough earlier to give a personal answer (which i point out the poster specifically asked me to do) to a very specific question which led to me being judged in 2 dimensional fashion by it. I know better than to give personalised information on a message board. me all the more stupid.

my only intention when i initially posted on this thread was to raise awareness of the misconception that conditioning and teaching are 2 different things and why it must be clarified that CC is conditioning, not teaching. which no one seems to be disputing anymore so is it safe to assume that i had a point??? I should know better because i continually get past one little point.

i am more interested in keeping the sleep debate alive (notice not the cosleeping or CC debate) and asking people to question what they do and to question what other people tell them to do.

so here are a few articles which can answer some questions you may not even realise are out there. your intrepretation of these articles will, i expect, be different from mine because i am a unique individual in a unique set of circumstance and so are you.

link - Why We Never Asked, Is It Safe For Infants To Sleep Alone.

  • very long but worth reading

link - on why we need to distinguish between reactive and non reactive cosleeping.

link - why babies should never sleep alone. a review of the co-sleeping controversy.

link - the article in the New Yorker in which Ferber agrees that CC does not always work and that sleeping with your baby is actually fine.

i put these links up here, not because i want to prove that CC (or solitary sleep) is wrong. no research exists to allow me to make such a claim. i put them there to raise awareness that solitary sleep, one expected end result of cc is not always in the best interests of mother or baby and that other sleep arrangements are advantageous to mother, father and baby so wider public approval of those methods should receive more equal acceptance and recommendations.

kiskidee · 05/04/2007 10:25

and dionne, i hope you read my post more than once in its entirety as well as all the links, in their entirety before making more cute remarks about me.

and sorry, not giving anymore personal 'what would you do' scenarios scottishthistle as per what i have said in my last post.

i take it you have had triplets or twins yourself? experience as a nurse is different from experience as a mum as many mners like to say about a certain sleep guru.

Aloha · 05/04/2007 10:26

Hmm, kikisdee, I really think you need to do some more reading. Of course there are studies done with sleep training! And by psychologists and paediatricians too. Numerous studies
And I see you are blithely ignoring everyone who says they did 'co-sleep' (hate that phrase - so holier-than-thou) and were driven to the point of depression and despair by lack of sleep.
I find being lectured by people who were lucky enough to have good sleepers (and anyone who thinks breastmilk is 'like knock-out drops' fits into that category for sure) really patronising and shockingly lacking in empathy.

kiskidee · 05/04/2007 10:28

look carefully at the methodolgies of those research aloha before you say numerous studies, blah, blah.

Lazycow · 05/04/2007 10:36

Thank god Aloha

Up until now I seem to have been the only voice on MN with a baby who just did not sleep after a breastfeed. I have said so a lot but most people ignore it and think I'm making it up. I am quite pleased that at least one other mother had this problem. He was like this from birth pretty much. It did mean he fed very well - I never had the problem of him not feeding because he fell asleep at the breast etc..

I am always quite envious of those who say they are worried about creating bad sleep associations by breastfeeding to sleep. If it had worked for me I's have been happy to do it for a long time. It just did not work.

Aloha · 05/04/2007 10:37

Oh don't be so patronising! I have personally interviewed child psychologists who have conducted studies. I have read extensively. You, however, did not even know these studies existed.

Aloha · 05/04/2007 10:38

I've had friends tell me, 'oh but breastfeeding makes them go to sleep'. It is infuriating!

3easterbunniesandnomore · 05/04/2007 10:40

interesting links, kiskidee....I have read a fair bit about co-sleeping, etc...but not come across any of those articles...so, thanks for sharing

Lazycow · 05/04/2007 10:40

All those nights lying down with him and breastfeeding for hours praying that this time he would fall asleep afterwards.

My abiding memory of ds as a newborn is my feeding him at night and then laying him down (in the openside cot next to me) with his eyes wide open. He actually didn't cry much as a newborn. That came later at about 3 months old and then oh boy did he cry!!

ScottishThistle · 05/04/2007 10:40

Kiskidee I'm not a nurse, there you go again undermining my experience!

I'm a MN/NNEB & I've worked with many families (in their home).

kiskidee · 05/04/2007 10:44

i dont know what a mn/nneb is. so i take it you haven't had triplets or twins?

speaking to these people aloha is different from reading their research and peer reviews of them and interviewing them. you can agree to that at least?

kiskidee · 05/04/2007 10:46

You, however, did not even know these studies existed.

and you making an assumption about me that you have no reason to do.

look here (if you dare) because i have already been accused of that by someone else and given him your answer.

ScottishThistle · 05/04/2007 10:47

MN- Maternity Nurse
NNEB- Nursery Nurse qualification

I personally haven't had Twins/Triplets but I have cared for Twins/Triplets!

kiskidee · 05/04/2007 10:48

then i won't say more scottish thistle.

Aloha · 05/04/2007 10:48

Look, I've done the work, you didn't even know these studies existed. In fact you stated, totally incorrectly, that they didn't. I think I win here!
People are driven to depression over sleep problems. Couples divorce. Health suffers (both child and parental). SLeep problems can be absolutely horrific when the child has special needs too.
It is OK to take steps to teach your child to sleep well. You wouldn't just feed your child sweets because they cried if you gave them broccoli, would you?

deasterjags · 05/04/2007 10:51

Kiskidee, thanks for posting.

I can see that you must feel fairly ganged up on, hence, I haven't posted since yesterday.

I personally have no problem with your views, preferences and ways of doing things. However, your posting style is abrupt and very dismissive of 90% of the respondents on this thread - this, rather than your views gets peoples backs up.

I think you need to be more open minded to the fact that teaching your baby to settle themselves is a good thing in a lot of instances.

In my experience a dogmatic approach to a specific parenting approach can be very limiting. My babies are happy and well adjusted - I assume yours to be the same. So essentially we are agreeing but your dogmatism on the subject comes across as patronising and inflexible - in the long run you won't gain much in terms of respect for your way of doing things if you can't relax a little.

ScottishThistle · 05/04/2007 10:52

I'm guessing that's not an apology for undermining my experience!

Psycho · 05/04/2007 11:19

Kiskidee:

'I take my position on CC based fact that there is no study, never mind a bank of studies to assess the effects (positive or not) of CC.'

Right. So also no bank of studies to suggest any negative effects of CC. Yet you and others, imply and maintain that there is.

Noone has suggested on this thread that co sleeping will damage children, they have simply said that for some parents and children it doesn't work, and other methods such as CC may be a solution for them.

I get mighty fed up with parenting advice based on pseudo psychology which implies, to decent, but struggling, parents that they are 'damaging' their children.

When longitudinal studies have been conducted on children who had CC, can demonstrate that they are damaged adults, as a direct result of CC, then come on here with your judgmental attitude and belittle essentailly loving parents.

What is worse? A baby who cries 6hrs a week whilst undergoing CC? Or a baby who cries 15hrs a week as he's overtired? In truth, neither will be ultimately damaging on it's own, as long as all other human needs such as love, affection, humour, warmth and basic needs are met, the majority of the time.

I am a child psychologist, and I work with children who have beeb seriously damaged by cruel and neglectful 'abandonment parenting', and find these debates where someone takes a stance to judge others who are essentillay good parents infuriating.

AS long as children overall have mostly postitive experiences, and as I said, have their human needs met, they will not be seriously damaged, either by crying during Cc, or crying becuase they're overtired. Obviously as parents we want to minimise their distress and some find that CC has this effect.

If co sleeping works for you and others, great. If CC works for others, why do have a probelm with that? It is imporatnt that parents are given a variety of advice and methods to use, which they can then identify from which are the most relevant and useful to them, their family, lifestyle and current difficulty.

'we know its effectivity' you say. Yes many parents find it very effective, and their babies happier as a result. There is extensive, ancedotal evidence for this, and no evidence as you say to suggest any negative effects, so why do you object?

'I go back to the saying 'no evidence of harm is not the same thing as evidence of no harm'.-No , of course it's not the same. but you seem to be starting from the piont that you thereore presume or suspect that there might be harm. Why? and is your suspicion and preference for one method suffieient justification for your judgement on others?

I think co sleeping is great. When it works.

I think Cc can be very effective, and produce happier babies. When it works.

At different times I've used both.

You ignore all the posts and comments from mothers who've been at the end of their teher with lack of sleep and unhappy babies for whom co sleeping is not working. What is your answer to them.

I think your knowledge on co sleeping would be very intersing and beneficial to many poeple, if you could deliver without such a patronising and unempatetic manner.

most of us are parents doing their best, and that best will be good enough.

Psycho · 05/04/2007 11:34

You know what has been proven to damage children?-depressed mothers.

and what esle has been proven to effect their mood/behaviour/attention? Lack of sleep.

There is not just one answer, or one correct way to approach a problem.
You have to judge the best course of action on someonescircumstnacese at the time.

Co sleeping is great, BUT, if a mother is depressed from lack of sleep as it's not working, something has to be done.

If a baby is crying for 2 hrs late afternoon everyday before falling alseep due to overtiredness, something has to cahenge to ease the babies overall distress.

And there are many more scenarios and solutions around sleep, not just CC and co sleeping.

Lazycow · 05/04/2007 11:46

Exactly Psycho

I really do thing co-sleeping is a fantastic idea and have absolutely no problem with it as concept but proponents of it often focus on a mother being selfish to want more sleep. They often ignore the fact that the baby itself is often exhausted and unhappy. 'Oh no' they say 'a baby will sleep when it needs to' and that is all they are prepared to offer as advice or help.

Lack of sleep has been proven to affect behaviour in both adults and babies so the lack of sleep is a problem for the baby as well but they often choose to focus on the selfishness of the mother for wanting to do something about it.

Aloha · 05/04/2007 11:47

Exactly!
Children who are tired tend to be utterly miserable, ditto for parents of children who don't sleep well.

kiskidee · 05/04/2007 12:00

"Look, I've done the work, you didn't even know these studies existed"

with this approach from you why would i bother continuing this discussion with you? it's time for not only me to step aside, aloha. it makes me sad that you are still holding this position when i told you already that i have some idea of what you are speaking about and gave you a reference where you would find evidence to the verify what i was claiming.

i take it you can share with us where to go to find these studies that you have read and maybe i haven't. i know i have not read everything that is salient. (even if it means a trip to the library.)

now i am stepping aside (again, sigh) as i intend to enjoy the good weather we are having.

kiskidee · 05/04/2007 12:05

no it isn't Scottishthistle. no apology is necessary.

deasterjags · 05/04/2007 12:08

did you read my post Kiskidee?

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