Controlled crying - moving from attachment parenting to abandonment parenting?

[tinkerbellhadpiles]

I know this is going to get a few people annoyed so I've put my special teflon knickers and fireproof boots on first. This is a genuine question:
I don't get controlled crying. I've spent a long time thinking about this (mostly at 2am when my DD wakes up hungry). If you put yourself in the place of the child, is this not a movement from attachment parenting to abandonment parenting
You spend all day lavishing attention on your child, when the little one cries you comfort him or her, sacrificing your time to do anything else in favour of looking after her.
Then seven a clock rolls round and you suddenly start ignoring her, until she learns that you just abandon her at nights and gives up and goes to sleep through exaustion or frustration.
To my mind controlled crying is an oxymoron, a child cries because they are out of control, frustrated, hungry or frightened. And if you are sitting there on the stairs sobbing because you can hear her (as a lot of my friends do) then you aren't in control either. Is it just a battle of wills or is there a genuine bit of science in here?
Seriously, will someone PLEASE explain how this actually works?
Incidentally, I don't have a much better solution, my DD (five months) sleeps 7-2:30, has a feed and sleeps till about 6ish. We just deal with it now and honestly I don't mind now I'm used to it. She did wake up every hour for a month when she got to three and a half months and I was fairly psychotic after a week of it and did pick up, put down and that worked to get to the above situation.

Danceswithbaby, I once went up to check on my eldest and found her asleep lying in a pool of vomit (she was about 18 months). I never did CC with her (she was always a great sleeper) so not calling out during a vomiting episode also happens to children that have not experienced CC.

It's funny because your query about what CC advocates do when CC isn't working reminds me of a similar query I recently had. I asked those who are against CC in any form what they suggest when co-sleeping (with constant breastfeeding, cuddles, etc) isn't working. I never got an answer!

bc, depends what you mean by isn't working though, doesn't it? If you accept a normality of children waking several times a night and indeed being up for a couple of hours sometimes in the night as my sister does (her twins are 6 and only just moved out of her bed) then it is "working"., What is working is the child knows that you love it and when it has a need you satisfy it so it cannot not work, if you see what I mean.

But I'm in the middle, a pragmatist, like my sex and liked when I had a husband the chance to have sex and children off to bed at a bed time and within a reasonable period of a year or so some through nights.

Um, have you read the studies about daycare and cortisol?

And stalkerish is constantly posting to say 'I know who you are in RL'.

DaddyJ your style of posting is really creepy and kind of scares me, frankly

are you always like this or is it just kiskidee that you speak to in this way?

Kikisdee posts in the most horrible, creepy way. full of innuendos 'I know who you are' and really nasty stuff about damaging children for which there is zero evidence. There are people on MN right now for whom support to help their children sleep has been massively helpful and supportive.

Good god. Should we change the name Mumsnet to Childsnet??

Even the OP has walked away from this one and I can't blame her.

Aloha, I am actually with you on this one but can't be arsed to get into an argument with the delightful Kisidee or whatever her name is waiting to pounce. Shame cos I thought it started out as a really interesting thread.

Yes, I never used day care. We had a nanny for 10 years at home. But I don't accept that stress is always bad for chidlren and some ultra cushy mummy's boys and girls actually may be worse at life skills. Stress doesn't necessarily damage children. Lack of stress might. It's not as simple as it appears and learning to get used to diffeernt people but knowing that both children whom you hugely love are always there in your life is achievable and may be the best solution for children.

It always upset me that a baby could be held 24/7 and fed on demand the little blighters could still scream for hours no matter what you do and yet rainforest theory strapped to mother 24/7, nipple always in reach they are supposed to be silent and satisfied.

aloha - hear hear.

maybe aloha can provide us with one piece of evidence where i have said anywhere on MN that i am always posting things like "i know who you are in RL"

what an utterly thing to claim.

but still. one piece of evidence. that is all you need.

FrannyandZooey, this tone is exclusively reserved for kiskidee. Not because she is anti-CC but because she spreads lies and bullies vulnerable mums.

Of course, if someone else emerges who is an ignorant bully and targets sleep-deprived mothers with lies and scare stories, then I am flexible enough to extend the kiskidee-treatment.
Morningpaper comes to mind but we?ll have to see what she meant by that frown and what she makes of my two posts to her (morningpaper, they are here and here ).

If you are scared because you yourself are partial to a bit of tongue-in-cheek aggro and anti-CC statements, then rest assured:
It is really important that there are reasonable people like you and danceswithbaby (or morocco and rothera) on hand to point out
that CC is not always the way forward and who support those who want alternatives.

You have done that consistently and without lying or overly nasty bullying.

We might have to agree to disagree but you certainly have nothing to be afraid of.

I am slightly disappointed that you chide me without making any reference to kiskidee?s nervous breakdown which preceded my change of approach.
You don't think it is a concern that the voices in her head tell that her posts are 'banter and a larf'? I am very concerned.

I suppose you are ideologically close to her and hence possibly slightly biased.
Western communists were the most ardent defenders of Stalin until the Russians themselves pointed out ?sorry comrades, but your hero was a mass-murderer?.

Ironically, kiskidee posted just as I was about to finish my second post to morningpaper with the words:
?Inspired? I hope so. I am.
Why don?t we bury the hatchet and just focus on supporting instead of arguing??

Ca, c?est la vie!

kiskidee, I am sorry I have been away, this morning I spent my time with my girls
and just as I had got onto Mumsnet the weather cleared up and we decided to go for a walk.

And now I want to give dd a bath. I had to deal with the most horrendous nappy today, all the way up her back

As I promised, I will be around tonight to listen to your problems.

"when and where do you have sex? I'm assuming that you are not going for the full continuum concept model and having it in bed with your children?"

anywhere else in the house where children aren't. 'nuff said.

there was a thread on this question not o
long ago. it made hilarious rdg and the posters weren't just cosleepers

DaddyJ linking to posts I have made on other threads is just odd and again creepy.

no I was not "scared" and I am not really interested in your opinion of me, but I think your style as shown on this thread is deliberately designed to be intimidating and unnerving. I find it worrying that a male poster would adopt a creepy stalker type tone on a website mostly frequented by women and then call this a "treatment" that you are considering extending to other posters whose posts you don't approve of.

I don't feel the need to comment on all the other posters on this thread just because I am speaking to you about your comments.

I have come across most of them elsewhere on MN and know their styles quite well, I also feel I have an understanding of them to some extent.

I have never seen you on any other thread, except for another one on sleep problems where you sweepingly insulted anyone who was anti-cc and then said it was an in-joke between you and kiskidee. I can't imagine why you feel it is acceptable to post in the over-personal, intimidating and obsessive style, to any poster on here, no matter what your opinion of them is.

bloody hell - i thought MN was meant to be a support forum! Sounds like it is getting too personal. Frankly, I find it odd for a cyber communication! You should all chill out!

deary me children, calm the hell down!!

As far as im aware kiskidee and daddyj have been having this discussion since February. I was involved in some of the original threads before it became a personal verbal vendetta between the 2 of them. I'm sure they are both lovely people in RL....

FrannyandZooey, hold on, you have only seen me on two threads?
I thought you were hostile towards me because of the long-running CC debate but if you have only seen me on two threads please allow me to explain:

Dw and I have lurked on the sleep section of Mumsnet for the past 10 months because we struggled with sleep deprivation and were looking for advice.

2/3 months ago there was a CC support thread which was attacked by kiskidee and morningpaper and eventually the mums were forced to give up the thread.
They set up another support thread and again kiskidee started disrupting it. Eventually they gave up altogether because instead of support they were given abuse.

It?s during the second thread that I decided to join Mumsnet because I felt what kiskidee was doing was unbelievably unfair.

To this day kiskidee has not apologised for her behaviour towards those mothers.

It subsequently turned out she was spreading lies as we found out on this thread which contains a very long and passionate debate about CC.

The debate then moved to this current thread as well as on the one set up by Othersideofthechannel .

That?s the background to this story.

Im with you on this one daddyJ! I have had heated debates with Kiskide on a similar thread not so long ago. Her attitude is pretty forcefull and appaling.
Some people (not just kiskide) cant accept that everyone has different views on things. What works for one may not work for another. Mumsnet is supposed to be for support and advice. Debates are ok but not when they turn into bullyish behaviour!
Some just think they are right about everything dont they!!!

Malaleche has acted as the voice of reason for me before and again she is right:
the CC debate is long over between me and kiskidee.

I have suggested a number of times that we should just shake hands and get on with supporting
but the worry is that if kiskidee thinks she got away with lying and bullying,
she will start attacking support threads again.

That?s what this is about, FrannyandZooey.
Please go in peace, even if your next post is as hostile as the previous ones I will certainly not get into a row with you.

Dionnelorraine, it is quite shocking how many people kiskidee has had run-ins with.

If kiskidee promised to stop lying and bullying I would make my peace with her right here, right now.
However, this is her response to this post of mine which was heartfelt and I stand by it despite what followed.

And now there is a suspicion that she has lied again.

At this point I am only interested in why kiskidee is so irrationally angry.

Weird! Its anger one minute and 'having a larf' the next! Very bizarre!
The word 'issues' sping to mind!
Oops, Im sounding quite bitchy there arnt I! Sorry, dont mean to be Im just slightly confused by all this. It has all gone out of control a little!

hey, whenever you lot feel like i am bullying, intimidating, stalking, lying, whatever you don't like, i have one piece of advice.

see that little red exclamataion point to the right of this post and all the others?

press it.

don't use hearing what you don't like/want to hear as an excuse to vent on me.

and there are quite a few of the usual characters who are now singing from the same songsheet, so they must be right.

ps: daddyj, your heartfelt offer of was it 'compromise?' only came after i pointed out that i busted you on 2 lies.

coincidence maybe? nah. i dont' think so.

DaddyJ I am not being "hostile" to you because of your views or anything like that

I am extremely concerned about your posts on this thread as I think they smack of a campaign of intimidation and harrassment. You seem to be deliberately posting in a style designed to be upsetting and threatening to women. I don't like reading it at all. I don't feel comfortable having someone posting on the site in this way. I also feel very concerned about you threatening to extend the same treatment to other posters if they upset you. I am also quite surprised that nobody else has challenged you on this.

What's going on? Do you really think this is acceptable behaviour, no matter what you think of the content of other people's posts on here?