Controlled crying - moving from attachment parenting to abandonment parenting?

[tinkerbellhadpiles]

I know this is going to get a few people annoyed so I've put my special teflon knickers and fireproof boots on first. This is a genuine question:
I don't get controlled crying. I've spent a long time thinking about this (mostly at 2am when my DD wakes up hungry). If you put yourself in the place of the child, is this not a movement from attachment parenting to abandonment parenting
You spend all day lavishing attention on your child, when the little one cries you comfort him or her, sacrificing your time to do anything else in favour of looking after her.
Then seven a clock rolls round and you suddenly start ignoring her, until she learns that you just abandon her at nights and gives up and goes to sleep through exaustion or frustration.
To my mind controlled crying is an oxymoron, a child cries because they are out of control, frustrated, hungry or frightened. And if you are sitting there on the stairs sobbing because you can hear her (as a lot of my friends do) then you aren't in control either. Is it just a battle of wills or is there a genuine bit of science in here?
Seriously, will someone PLEASE explain how this actually works?
Incidentally, I don't have a much better solution, my DD (five months) sleeps 7-2:30, has a feed and sleeps till about 6ish. We just deal with it now and honestly I don't mind now I'm used to it. She did wake up every hour for a month when she got to three and a half months and I was fairly psychotic after a week of it and did pick up, put down and that worked to get to the above situation.

And my comments about DaddyJ are not intended to be a justification or endorsement of kiskidee's posts, or anyone else's, or a criticism of DaddyJ's views. It is purely your posting style that I am alarmed by, DaddyJ. If people have issues with other posters on this thread (eg kiskidee) then I suggest you take it up with the poster concerned (as I am doing), or contact MNHQ.

Agree with F&Z. This thread is no longer any kind of debate on CC, it makes for very uncomfortable reading.

DaddyJ's claim that he's protecting vulnerable mums from a bully is really undermined by his unnerving and obsessive posts. Maybe it's time to drop this one now?

It all looks a bit complicated for me. I couldn't follow how it went so best just to ingore those bits. I'm sure it's a topic that people have strong views on but that should never lead to people not talking about their views.

Xenia, by cosleeping not working I wasn't refering to night awakenings that can be settled with a cuddle or a feed.

I coslept in the beginning with my second (as I had my first) and in the beginning everything was great and we all loved it. Then my baby started to wake up and not settle no matter what we did for her. This escalated into 2 hour long cying (loud and distressed) sessions with me and my husband at a loss as to what to do. My daughter was tired and upset during the day also. This is what I meant by cosleeping 'not working', it certainly wasn't working for my baby.
I was gutted as I wanted to cosleep and had found it a lifesaver with my first child.
DD2 it turns out, sleeps much better in her own room. She was 7 months when we moved her into her own room and although her sleep is not brilliant, it is a lot better and she is happier during the day too. We have since tried to cosleep again a few times and the same thing happens each time. Recently we stayed at my sister's for a while and had to sleep in the same room and it was awful.

When I asked my question (on another thread) about what antiCCers would have suggested I try, I was genuinely interested as I would have loved to have found a solution that meant continuing cosleeping.

As far as the tone this thread has taken I would just like to add that I think coming on one of the CC support threads and repeatedly quoting information about how CC is dangerous is insensitive. Would it be acceptable to post views on a formula feeding support thread about the negatives of this feeding method? I think there are threads which invite debate and threads where one should know when to sit on one's hands. If you want to debate a topic that has come up in a support thread do as the OP here has done, and start a debate about it.

FrannyandZooey, before passing judgement on me I would be grateful if you took the time to do a little background
reading on this debate and review my other posts to people who don?t share my views and with one or two exceptions
you will find I have been constructive and open-minded.

You yourself have just accused me of stalking, a criminal offence.
I did not lash out at you but tried to explain myself.

I don?t think your assessment of Saturday night?s postings is very balanced.
You have not acknowledged kiskidee?s violation of Mumsnet rules
and you have not acknowledged the intense level of provocation that preceded my change of tone.

Kiskidee is a very special case. I very much doubt anyone else would now dream of posting on the two CC support threads
by kittypants and crossedwires that what they are doing is psychologically damaging their children and that there is scientific proof of this.

That?s presumably why no one has flagged up my posts because I might be offending kiskidee
but she is offending any parent who has ever used a sleep training method which involves crying.

FrannyandZooey, I can?t tell you how pleased I am that you don?t want to start an argument, though!
I am a little tired of this, it?s been three months and as far as I am concerned we were finished 2 months ago.

There is no doubt that last Saturday?s violence (verbal abuse can be just as bad as physical) has taken the debate one step too far.
I would love to listen to you and stop ?my campaign? immediately but have you seen her latest post?

Who is the stalker? Whose campaign is this?

If you are genuinely concerned about the posting style only, not the content,
please advise me how to reply to her latest post.
I am a newbie here and I will listen and learn from you. If you can point a way out of this mess, I will follow it to the letter

My problem with my sister is that although she would say it "worked" in that she had the body contact all night me observing it she was constantly fed up with the lack of sleep so it that "working". I suppose it is if you think the principle of being in bodily contact is more important than a parent being tired so in a way it always "works" and if the parent couldn't bear not to be near the child then the harm to the parent of sleeping the child apart and feeling they are doing the wrong thing is a greater harm than no sleep.

Personally I would have much preferred babies that went to sleep and slept but I never seemed to get one of those whether that's because I failed at co sleeping or failed at controlled crying I don't know. I suppose like most parents we just muddled through and sometimes these days the 18 year old is getting breakfast when the rest of us are on to lunch.

Interseting point for me whenever I had a small baby in bed is that I just couldn't sleep with them up against me. Actually same with men too - I need space around me.

"you have not acknowledged the intense level of provocation that preceded my change of tone.

Kiskidee is a very special case."

So it is ok to post in an unnerving and upsetting manner on a public forum, admit to joining purely to harrass someone, and follow them all over the site making over-personal and creepy comments, as long as they provoked you to do it?

Kiskidee isn't the only person posting on this site, you know. There are a lot of women reading this and the atmosphere of creepy intimidation is going to affect every one of us. If you think this debate was finished 2 months ago then why are you continuing to dog this thread?

ahh Xenia - the voice of reason
Most of us muddle along somehow, with a bit of crying, a bit of co-sleeping and a lot of cuddling. My ds is only 2.5 years old yet I feel so much more in tune with Xenia's longer term view than many mothers on this site seem to.

I really can't get worked up about the 'damage done to child who cries too much' maybe partly because my ds cried whatever I did or maybe because I was a 'very' part time sort of mother figure to my niece and nephew who are now teenagers.

Both my niece and nephew co-slept with any member of our extended family at any point they could get away with and yet who also cried a great deal and were left to it sometimes when their mother was desperate. Overall they have turned out fine and like most teenagers hate getting out of bed before noon

this is ridiculous. you should put this one to bed now.

I agree with Cruismum.

People come to this sleep forum for support & tips when they are at the end of their tether and I think your arguing, insulting & competing with one another only adds to their frustration / depression.

Yeah, come on guys. Enough said. Pack it in now huh?

lc, yes, depends on the child but I do think there's merit in looking at what works and what doesn't and what you as a parent like. That's why I have an open mind on co-sleeping and cc. Actually I'd rather they went to sleep apart and never cried at night, but those kinds of babies don't often exist.

What I found after the first one was that you do ignore the second crying more just because you have to. Same with teh twins - they became more of a factory production line having to fit into school of the older three whether they liked it or not and it's hard to meet twin needs immediately like you can with one baby with one parent around.

Incidentally my 22 year old who slept so appallingly still has insomnia now, still feels she needs to make a noise at 6.30am like today - gets up and goes to the gym or out to study but same personality she was born with I think.

Mabbit, I will.

FrannyandZooey, thanks for your intervention, I am relieved this is over.
I will stick to offering support and information.

Danceswithbaby, if you ever check this thread thanks again for the two points you made. I think they were both useful to anyone considering CC.

If CC does not work watering it down or doing something non-CC is most probably a better option than going to CIO.

With regard to vomiting I would also take into account how ?possetty? the baby is.
Our dd has only possetted twice in her whole life and if she had vomited at any time during CC we would have immediately stopped and gone back to the drawing board.
But I have seen other babies who in the middle of playing suddenly throw up ? and then just carry on playing as if nothing had happened.

I was also told this story by a good friend of mine whose lo is always rocked or breastfed to sleep.
One morning he went to pick her up and noticed that her entire face was covered with blood.
He picked her up and nearly fainted as there was a pool of blood underneath her.
When he checked closely, though, it turned out to be the meal from the night before.
He was overwhelmed with relief but really could not understand how she could have vomited
so much without making any noise ? they have got a baby monitor and her room is right next to theirs.

Maybe someone on Mumsnet who has experienced CC and vomiting can tell us more.

I have always co slept with my daughter (2.6) - that was the way we both got to sleep the most when she was tiny. And now, most nights, I sleep in the middle of the bed with my partner on my right and my daughter on my left, all three of us huddled together with our arms and legs entwined... NEVER would I have imagined that I would be able to sleep that way, but we all sleep extremely well.

At the moment she is ill, and she is like a baby koala, clinging to me night and day just as she did as a tiny thing. She must feel very safe that way.

kiskidee, tell me..what research and evidence are you basing your opinions of CC on?

I am so glad I did not read this before I started my own cc thread in desperation recently. It would have scared me to death!

DrF, it is probably best to first read both recent CC debate threads (this one and ?HV recommending, I am not sure?) in full and then add anything new of substance.

The other CC thread never got excessively abusive because at least we were providing information and debating at the same time which counterbalanced things somewhat.

When there is nothing of substance to discuss the only thing left is getting personal. See below.
Lessons have been learned.

Oh I just fancied a jolly with a troll - I look at it as a kind of mental exercise (only for a shirt time) and I'm made of quite stern stuff. I don't have the time to read all the threads; suffice to say these things have been discussed on MN numerous times. I just wondered if the staunch anti-cc posters were arguing from any established position rather than some personally derived opinion based on their own experience - it's one of the logical errors many people make - generalising from their own experience instead of looking at statistically relevant evidence, even if it doesn?t tally with their prejudices.