Controlled crying at 4 months old.

[Writerwannabe83]

Bedtimes have become a nightmare for me - DS just refuses to sleep.

Last night it took 4 hours for him go fall asleep once we had started his bedtime routine. That's a long 4 hours of grizzling, crying and screaming.

He will cry and cry in his Crib but the minute I pick him up, he stops. He looks at me, gives me a huge smile and a lovely laugh and starts flailing his arms and legs everywhere like he wants to play.

I calm him down and put him back in his crib and the crying starts again.

It goes on and on and on and on. He cries, I pick him up, he laughs/smiles, I put him back down, he cries again, I pick him up again, he laugh/smiles - you get the picture.

I offer feeds and change his nappy in between all these pick ups and put downs to ensure there's no reason for his screaming but absolutely nothing makes any difference.

Me and DH are nearly at breaking point - we just can't maintain this anymore.

Normally the pattern goes in for 2.5 hours but last nights record 4 hours just bought it home how insane it is.

Once he does go to sleep (usually from exhaustion) he sleeps very well. His first stretch will be 5-6 hours, then he has a feed, then sleeps again for another 3 hours. It's just getting him to sleep is the problem.

I spoke to a HV today who suggested we try controlled crying. She said to carry out his bedtime routine, pop him in his crib, turn the lights down and then for me to go and sit out on the landing. She advised that once DS starts crying to leave him for a minute before going back in, and I'm not to pick him up but just pat him for reassurance and then leave again. She told me to just keep doing this and prepare myself for having to go in and out about 50 times. She said it can be hard emotionally but after a week there should be a huge improvement in getting DS to sleep.

I don't know how I feel about it, but I know I can't spend 4 hours every night just picking him up and putting him down.

Has anyone else ever done it this early?

And if not, how did you deal with problems as bad as this?

"2. Your body makes antibodies for your DS. It does this by you taking on any pathogens he has picked up through contact, particularly through your nipples while breastfeeding. Your body then makes anti-bodies for your baby, and gives them back to your baby in your milk. That's science, and amazong! "

Your body doesn't pick up pathogens through the nipples. That's ridiculous (sorry)

You pick up pathogens the way your baby does - by ingestion (mouth) and respiration (nose). Since a breastfeeding mum is usually not far from her baby, she tends to be exposed to the same pathogens and the antibodies in her breastmilk tend to be useful to her baby.

This works during normal breastfeeding times too, of course, and hence is not an argument for putting baby to breast whenever he cries.

OP - Maybe your HV was trying to say that putting baby to breast does not need to be the first and only method of calming your baby when he wakes in the night. Shh/pat or a hug may be enough.

"he'd then get used to feeding to sleep and it would be a bad habit to break"

That old chestnut.

That's what my HV said to me too, as well as MIL. I ignored it. DS is 5 now, he's a good sleeper, bedtimes are usually easy (well when he's not fighting over toothbrushing or asking for more stories!) and we gave up feeding to bed when it felt right for us. No problem.

What we didn't do was waste energy and create distress for DS, giving it up at a time when DS clearly needed it, and it was the most effective way to get him to sleep. It also had the bonus of me getting to lie down with him and take the chance for a rest after a busy day, rather than pacing the room with him or sush-patting or whatever (not knocking those methods for those for whom they work, but I was very happy lying down and briefly drifting off with DS). In fact I felt quite angry with MIL when she told me I shouldn't feed to sleep (I didn't show it though I hope). We stayed there for a while and home-life at hers was very busy, full of housework from the moment we got up till I went to bed. Putting DS to bed was often the first rest I'd get all day. Why would I want to give that up to pace the room with a now fractious baby who also just wanted me to feed them?

Writer you sound very sensible, I hope you find what works soon.

Possibly cote - and to be fair, when he does wake up in the night I do feed him as I assume that's why he has woken up. Sometimes he will feed for just a few minutes, sometimes it's 5-10 minutes and sometimes he spends ages on each breast.

He never used to wake up during the night so the fact he's now doing it I put down to him either being thirsty because of the heat or needing the calories for his development/growth. He has learnt how to roll over on his side over the last week and also his hand/ eye co-ordination has greatly improved.

The 6.5-7 hour stretch he had last night once he fell asleep is the longest he has done in quite a while as over the last few weeks it has usually only been a 4-5 hour sleep he has had for his first stretch.

Thanks wiggly - there will be no pacing the room tonight. I will get DS in his pyjamas at about 9 and then he can sit downstairs with us until we all go up to bed.

Mine and DH's relationship has been very unsteady over the last few weeks, maybe months, and I genuinely think it's because we aren't spending enough time together anymore. He comes home from work, sees me for about 2.5 hours and then I'm holed up upstairs for 3-4 hours trying to get DS to sleep. Sometimes DH will come up and check how we are but it's very brief, or we will sometimes just swap shifts so we are still apart. If DH does come and sit upstairs with me whilst trying to settle DS it isn't quality time together as it just involves whispering or passing DS between us.

By giving DS a later bedtime it will give me and my DH our evenings back to spend together and it's something we desperately need.

writer it sounds like he (and you) are doing great. The option to sleep train is always there in the future if his sleep does really regress but a stretch like that is really good at 4months. Isn't it better that he sleeps at night so you sleep rather than sleeping 7-1 and disturbing you in the middle of your sleep cycle?
If the hv was making cotes point then I do see the merit in what she said. It is really handy if baby can sometimes be settled without feeding as it means your dh can help more. But at 4months a lot of bf babies do feed to sleep and I expect after a 6hr stretch they are actually hungry. It's when they wake every couple of hours where it might be more about sleep associations than hunger.

Sorry x-post.
Hopefully you and dh will be able to enjoy your evenings together again.

CoteDAzur why is the idea that contact exposes the mother to pathogens ridiculous? Or the idea that the more exposure you get the more likely your body is to pick them up and create antibodies?

I read it fairly recently, annoyingly I can't remember where, I'll have a good go at finding the source when I've not got two children with me!

In the meantime, this is from La Leche League, and evidence based (check this link if you want to see the sources)

Myth Non-nutritive sucking has no scientific basis.

Fact Experienced breastfeeding mothers learn that the sucking patterns and needs of babies vary. While some infants' sucking needs are met primarily during feedings, other babies may need additional sucking at the breast soon after a feeding even though they are not really hungry. Babies may also nurse when they are lonely, frightened or in pain.

Myth The mother should not be a pacifier for the baby.

Fact Comforting and meeting sucking needs at the breast is nature's original design. Pacifiers (dummies, soothers) are literally a substitute for the mother when she can't be available. Other reasons to pacify a baby primarily at the breast include superior oral-facial development, prolonged lactational amenorrhea, avoidance of nipple confusion and stimulation of an adequate milk supply to ensure higher rates of breastfeeding success.

Myth Frequent nursing leads to poor milk production, a weak let-down response and ultimately unsuccessful nursing.

Fact Milk supply is optimized when a healthy baby is allowed to nurse as often as he indicates the need. The milk-ejection reflex operates most strongly in the presence of a good supply of milk, which normally occurs when feeding on baby's cue.

Hope it goes better. When DD was that age we kept her downstairs with us all evening. She napped or didn't as she wanted to and then would have a last bottle at 11ish and then come up with us. Seemed to work ok and we got to spend our evenings together.

Your HV sounds useless. I'd take anything she says with a large pinch of salt.

I'm sorry cote but you're wrong to dismiss the PPs suggestion about sickness as ridiculous.

If your baby is ill, or has come into contact with germs, baby's saliva stimulates the breast to make antibodies specific to that germ or illness.

writer, I've been there about bedtimes! It's so hard. We had a tough time with DS around 3/4 months. Suddenly things got better and by 5mo, DH could cuddle him after his bedtime BF and put him into the cot.

At the time it seemed like it would never end and now he's nearly 10mo, it seems like the blink of an eye! They really only are tiny for such a short time.

Hope that bedtimes get better for you soon.

I honestly don't think so. Breastfeeding baby's saliva on the nipple would pass into the mother's blood stream in about the same amount as nipple cream does - i.e. zero.

The nipple is not an open wound. If it were and pathogens indeed passed through, nipples would constantly be infected - from your fingers, from your bra, etc.

That's science, and it's amazong!

"Are There Differences Between Breastfeeding Directly and Bottle-feeding Expressed Milk?"

"In most societies, the value of breastmilk is well-known, but the value of breastfeeding is not. Breastmilk is a wondrous living fluid that cannot be replicated, and breastfeeding is the normal and optimal way to deliver it.

Antibodies are blood proteins produced in response to substances that the body recognizes as alien, such as bacteria and viruses. Close physical contact with your baby helps your body create antibodies to germs in his environment. When you breastfeed directly, your body creates antibodies in response to cues from your baby’s saliva and other secretions. After exposure to new germs, your body can make targeted antibodies available to your baby within the next several hours (Chirco 2008) (Cantini 2008). While a bottle of milk from a previous date will provide your baby with immune factors, it will not contain antibodies to germs he was exposed to today."

thebreastfeedingmother.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/are-there-differences-between.html

CoteDAzur thoughts on the above?

I notice it's arguable that I described the way it happens incorrectly, and I will change my wording in the future, so thanks for making me think about that, but the bottom line is the same: when you breastfeed, your baby's saliva on your nipple makes your body produce antibodies, which are targeted to your baby's needs.

This happens whether a baby is feeding for food or "for comfort".

I do think this is truly amazing, don't you?

I can't tell if you're being condescending or not, cote, but the biological communication between baby's mouth and mother's breast when feeding is not the same as saying a nipple is an open wound.

Nipple cream and a baby's saliva are not comparable as one is a living bodily fluid.

There are many things about breastmilk and its composition, and the reason for the changes in its composition, which science has yet to explain.

This isn't relevant to the OP so I am not going to argue about it.

Op sorry if I have missed it being suggested somewhere in the thread, but when you put ds down have you tried waking him a little on purpose. Dd used to stay asleep when I put her down, then wake in a complete panic because she didn't know where she was.

I would tilt her up so she would stir as I put her down or move her a bit more than necessary to wake her a bit. Then shh pat to get her to settle again. It stopped her from waking 20 mins later in a panic. She also got used to being in the cot for sleep and started to settle herself through the night.

The HVs that visited me after the birth of dd1 all said different things. There obvs wasn't one right answer.

DD1 was very similar to what you describe. DH and I were at breaking point. Especially me as a breast feeding mum.

We couldn't bear to consider leaving her to cry. So she slept in bed between us. We all, instantly had a good night's rest. DH who works long hours enjoyed the time being physically close to baby. For us, it worked so well, that we co slept as a matter of course with DD2. By 2 yrs old everyone was sleeping in their own bed, through the night, without a fuss.

I know there are people who think this is a terrible risk. My dh and I don't smoke and didn't even drink moderately in those days. So the risks were small, and for us preferable to leaving her to feel alone and abanded when she was so small and vulnerable.

kooth - that's a very valid point and one I will definitely take into consideration. My HV spoke to me about self settling and one of the reasons she gave was so that baby would wake up in the same place he fell asleep so wouldn't be confused, disorientated, scared etc. I always thought it was an excellent point as I imagine how scared I'd feel if I fell asleep in my bed and then woke up somewhere completely different.

When he work up last night in his Crib about 30 minutes after he'd fallen asleep at the breast, the noise/scream he made was horrendous, it was so high pitched. At the time I thought it was wind but it's very possible he was actually scared as it certainly had that kind of pitch and distressed tone to it.

My HV said that when DS is showing signs of being very drowsy I should put him in his MB/Crib so he knows he is in there and then gently rock/soothe/pat him to send him off to sleep.

toomany - I'm not against co-sleeping, I understand it totally works for some people. I have had DS in bed with me on two occasions, both at about 05.30am and on one of those times I accidentally fell asleep and felt mortified when I woke up and realised. I had a medical condition which makes it very unsafe to co-sleep hence why I don't do it. I'm pretty sure if I could do it I'd be open to the concept if my sleep depravation was getting too much to cope with

Ah, shame. It's an easy fix for some of us, but I did want to flag up that it is not universally acceptable.

I don't really have any other ideas to share.
I feel for you. It's so tough to be constantly sleep deprived.

wiggly - I searched for breastfeeding Chirco 2008 in scholar.google.com and got nothing but the paragraph you are quoting (i.e. there doesn't seem to be any such research). When you click on that breastfeedingusa.org link, you get "Page not found".

There is a similar result when you search for breastfeeding Cantini 2008 - Your breastfeedingusa.org article that talks about "Chirco 2008, Cantini 2008" is the only relevant link, and that leads to a "Page not found" link. Again, there doesn't seem to be a scientific research by a Cantini in 2008.

A scientist called Cantini has apparently done research on cancer cells etc but not about antibodies in human breast milk.

If these studies exist, I'd love to read about them. So please do share if you ever find them.

Writer - Don't take this the wrong way, but if your son is often doing a 4-5 hour stretch and then another couple of hours you do have the potential not to be that sleep deprived. I mean, plenty of people would find one night waking hard, but others find it survivable. It sounds like there's a decent chance it's the stress, and the exhaustion from battling that is making it so, so intolerable. If you can eliminate that, maybe even if the sleep takes a while to get better, you'll feel better in yourself?

Since you have asked specifically for my comments on the paragraph you have cut/pasted...

"Close physical contact with your baby helps your body create antibodies to germs in his environment."

Of course. Snuggling with your baby will infect you with whatever disease he has, even if he doesn't breastfeed.

"When you breastfeed directly, your body creates antibodies in response to cues from your baby’s saliva and other secretions."

"Cues"? What "cues"?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of human biology is that a pathogen needs to make it into the blood stream for antibodies against it to be made. You won't make antibodies against a pathogen if you just touch it, with your hands or your nipples.

Writer - Coming back you your initial thought re CC at 4 months:

You have two choices: Wait for your baby to sleep through whenever that may be (6 months? 1 year? 2 years?) or do sleep training. If you think you will do sleep training, it really is easier on everybody if you do it earlier rather than later.

Does he have a dummy? Those times when he is comforted by the breast but isn't really interested in feeding sound like he is using you as one. It could help to get him a dummy. The less milk he gets in the night, the more he will drink in the day to compensate and the less he will be hungry in the night. (A good sort of vicious circle).

penguin - you are completely right, the only thing that is stressing me out is trying to get him to sleep I the first place. Once he is asleep everything is fine and I think the length of time he goes between waking is perfectly fine too - I get good stretches of sleep, but like you say, I'm just exhausted by the battle.

cote - he had a dummy when he was 4 weeks old, but from about 10 weeks old he has completely refused it

Alsocote - what do you class as sleeping through?