Controlled crying at 4 months old.

[Writerwannabe83]

Bedtimes have become a nightmare for me - DS just refuses to sleep.

Last night it took 4 hours for him go fall asleep once we had started his bedtime routine. That's a long 4 hours of grizzling, crying and screaming.

He will cry and cry in his Crib but the minute I pick him up, he stops. He looks at me, gives me a huge smile and a lovely laugh and starts flailing his arms and legs everywhere like he wants to play.

I calm him down and put him back in his crib and the crying starts again.

It goes on and on and on and on. He cries, I pick him up, he laughs/smiles, I put him back down, he cries again, I pick him up again, he laugh/smiles - you get the picture.

I offer feeds and change his nappy in between all these pick ups and put downs to ensure there's no reason for his screaming but absolutely nothing makes any difference.

Me and DH are nearly at breaking point - we just can't maintain this anymore.

Normally the pattern goes in for 2.5 hours but last nights record 4 hours just bought it home how insane it is.

Once he does go to sleep (usually from exhaustion) he sleeps very well. His first stretch will be 5-6 hours, then he has a feed, then sleeps again for another 3 hours. It's just getting him to sleep is the problem.

I spoke to a HV today who suggested we try controlled crying. She said to carry out his bedtime routine, pop him in his crib, turn the lights down and then for me to go and sit out on the landing. She advised that once DS starts crying to leave him for a minute before going back in, and I'm not to pick him up but just pat him for reassurance and then leave again. She told me to just keep doing this and prepare myself for having to go in and out about 50 times. She said it can be hard emotionally but after a week there should be a huge improvement in getting DS to sleep.

I don't know how I feel about it, but I know I can't spend 4 hours every night just picking him up and putting him down.

Has anyone else ever done it this early?

And if not, how did you deal with problems as bad as this?

Thanks Lovely. I haven't looked myself but it would make me feel better to think this isn't really still happening.

Well seeing as he is still settled I'm going to cross my fingers and try and get some sleep myself.

A massive thank you to you all for all your support, advice and company this evening. Your kindness, reassurances and suggestions are what have kept me sane instead of me pulling my hair out. You have all been great, so thank you

I hope he goes through until at least 04.00am....

Night night everyone

Hope you and your little one sleep well writer

FWIW, my baby cried if I put her in a crib. So, I stopped putting her in the crib. Your baby is quite clearly telling you that he hates the crib. Why not have a think about what else could you do instead?

When DD was a small baby, she wanted to sleep on me. I stopped trying to get her to settle in our room, and I let her sleep on my chest, while I mumsnetted spent the evenings on the sofa. She wanted to be next to me, not in a crib. So we got a three sided cot, one which goes right up to the edge of the bed. She slept on the edge of our bed next to the cot, or in the cot. She was right next to me - where she wanted to be - and slept amazingly well.

Then when she got too big for the three-sided cot (the one we had was crib-sized) I was a bit stumped as to what to do for a bit. She hated the big cot too. I couldn't have her in the bed - DS gets in too in the early hours fairly often, and not enough room for all of us. I was worried she'd fall out or get squished against the wall. Eventually I realised what the obvious solution was - so obvious I didn't see it for a while! So, we took the bedframe away and are now sleeping on the mattress on the floor. DD cosleeps with us, and I don't have to worry about her falling out. It may seem odd, but hey, we all get a good night sleep. When she's older I'll move her into a toddler bed, and we'll put our bedframe back.

I have two children. I have never spent hours putting them to bed. I've gone with the flow when they were little and let them set their own routines. Both of them like long naps in the day and going to bed about 10pm. When we stayed with MIL for a while, she kept on at me about putting DS down at 7, but I I couldn't see the point in this - why should I put a child to bed when they're just going to fight it for like 3 hours?! And anyway, he woke up about 7:30am or 8am which suited me very well. If I managed to get him to bed at 7pm, wouldn't he be one of those babies who wakes up at 4:30 or 5am? I'm not going to sign up for that willingly, thanks very much! She also kept telling me how much better it would be if I didn't feed DS to sleep, and that it would create bad habits. What nonsense. He's at school now, and goes to bed at a very reasonable time. He's a confident boy, seems very healthy. Sleeps well. No longer breastfed. What bad habits did we create?!

Please, if your baby needs comfort and wants to BF, and you want to feed him, don't let an ignorant HV get in-between you.

I have fed both DCs on demand, and coslept with both of them, partly tbh, because it's been the easiest thing to do.

I'm not saying you should cosleep, I'm saying that is what worked for us. But I'm sure if you trust your own instincts, and listen to your baby rather than the (ignorant) HV, or any preconceived notions of what babies should do or when they should do it, then you'll find what works for him and you. But it sure ain't the crib and 7am bedtimes, he's communicated that pretty clearly!

Sorry for the rant. I hope you find it supportive and helpful, that's how I mean it. The ignorance of some HVs really gets my goat!

If you want decent advice about Bfing, try kellymom.com or if you prefer to talk to someone, try www.laleche.org.uk they have a helpline and meet-ups.

Good luck, I hope you find what works for you soon.

Stop listening to the HV is my advice.

How will your DS go to sleep ? For dd she liked to go to sleep snuggled up against me as i sat in the rocker. I would put her in her cot when she was properly asleep.

I found working with what your baby wants to do is a far more effective and enjoyable strategy than trying to force a miserable and fretful baby i to something they don't want to do.

You can get travel cot mattresses from babymattressesonline.co.uk/for-travel-cots.
I got the mattress for DS's cot from them, it was really good.

I hope you're getting a good nights sleep OP.

I just wanted to add one thing to all the good advice you've had so far.

Occasionally, all the stuff that usually works just doesn't work. You won't know what the problem might be (heat / teeth / overtired / poorly etc) and you'll reach the point where everything seems impossible.

The very best thing you can do at this point is something completely different. Get yourself out of the cycle of trying the usual things and getting frustrated and stressed when they don't work.

My preferred hell-night solution was to pop baby in a sling on DH and send him out for an hours walk. The change of scene / temp / jiggling / more relaxed parent always helped and I would have a long bath and chill while they were out.

Sometimes we did this at 3am.

9 times out of 10 DH would come back with a sleeping baby who would be happy to have a feed and a cuddle and go to sleep. And on the times it didn't work, at least we were all much calmer for having a break.

Hold on, I've just noticed that you said your HV said "not to put DS to the breast if he was upset" " many months ago "

so he must have been little more than newborn at the time?

How dare she say that to a new mother. Of course you should feed your baby if he's upset. There is no reason on earth not to. And it is beneficial for them in so many ways.

Here are just two:

1. It makes them feel comforted, and stop crying. (Why people think this isn't important is beyond me!)

1. Your body makes antibodies for your DS. It does this by you taking on any pathogens he has picked up through contact, particularly through your nipples while breastfeeding. Your body then makes anti-bodies for your baby, and gives them back to your baby in your milk. That's science, and amazong! Why on earth wouldn't we want to support this process as much as possible?

Your boobs are basically your baby's own personal pharmacy! Does your HV understand that's how it works? I'd bet good money she bloody doesn't.

I notice also you say "it seems the most natural and effective thing to do."

You have great instincts IMO, and that HV should not be allowed near new mothers. In your position, I would make an official complaint.

DS had many a nap in a cradle swing, sometimes for several hours at a time. I guiltily ignored any advice about not letting him sleep in it...

He needed to sleep, and I needed to sleep...

By the time he was too big for it he'd found his own nap time routine.

He is 7 now, and sleeps pretty well.

I'd echo the EASY routine with 2 hour awake periods, much more than that you could have an over tired wide eyed baby. You might need to watch for sleep cues, eye rubbing, yawn, ear pulling to find your LO awake time needs.

If its wind keeping him up, try infocol with every feed, and wind whilst rocking over your shoulder so he's still asleep or sleepy

I did CC, I think at around 5 months. It's brilliant and I didn't look back. First night or two was really hard though. You have to make sure they're tired, fed and not in pain for it to work swiftly though. My DD is now 2, loves her bed, and is dream to put down.

Good luck!

Writer hope you're feeling a bit brighter this morning and that you all had a good night.

Another vote for feeding in this situation from here. With breast feeding you haven't really a clue about how much milk they've taken per feed and with the heat he'll be needing more fluid.

IMO one of the best things about breast feeding is the ability to provide instant comfort - make the most of it! I'd usually give up after a few mins of unexplained crying. It doesn't mean that you're going to end up feeding all night every night until they're 2. 16 weeks is still very young.

My DD slept constantly for the first month of her life...and then basically didn't sleep at all for the next eight months. I'm serious. She took, on average, EIGHT MINUTE NAPS. I timed them.

It was awful. I started co-sleeping with her out of sheer necessity. We'd sleep for three hours, she'd wake up, I'd insert the boob and go back to sleep. If I tried her on her own she'd scream and scream and I don't believe in CC for very little ones.

Eventually though, she just seemed to grow out of it. Around 9 months I started trying her on her own and she'd fuss a bit and then sleep. By her 1st birthday she was sleeping 7-7 at night and a 2 hour nap.

She just wasn't ready before. I went with my instincts and it was right for us. I wouldn't worry about what your HV says. Go with your gut.

If he's getting a lot of trapped wind, how is his latch while feeding?

Morning wannabe. Hope your night went okay! I am surprised the hv said not to breast feed as comfort. Fwiw I fed my dd (now 15) on demand, she would comfort feed for hours (I mean hours and hours - 15 hours plus a day). She was an affectionate toddler and child. She still loves cuddles and kisses now. She is certainly very well attached, confident and happy.

Go with your instinct, you know your baby far better than the hv. 4 months is tiny. I really wouldn't worry about bed times and too much comfort feeding.

Have you read the kellymom website or attended a breast feeding clinic? They may have more suggestions for you.

Also I read that breastfeeding can help some babies with teething pain. Kelly mom website Definately mentions that.

At some baby groups I have attended with hv present there are very few breast feeders present. Maybe this means some hv are not as well read on breast feeding. I know at the 3 month baby massage class I attended I was the only breast feeder there. What I am trying to say is maybe speak to breastfeeding support workers as breast feeding babies digest food quicker and use breast milk to quench thirst too (hot weather). Plus they suck for comfort. They also feed to increase your milk supply, maybe baby is growth spurting and is wanting to up your milk supply.

Sorry Writer, only got as far as reading that your HV advised never to feed a crying baby...

I'd double-check everything she tells you from now on, because that's two pieces if very dodgy advice she's given out so far.

Coachbuiltmama isn't real is she? Come on. And of she is, she's completely wrong so best just ignore her 'advice'.

OP, I appreciate what you say about feeding to sleep/wind. Can you transfer him once he's asleep to an upright position on you, over a shoulder or upright on your chest? This might be more likely to induce a sleepy burp.

At 4mo my DS was only just starting to accept sleeping in the cot so I'm not surprised your DS wakes and grumbles when you put him in, mine did too. What we used to do was try to get him off to sleep wherever we were. Sometimes he'd fall asleep on one of us and we'd make a nest on the sofa (I know that's not in line with guidelines, but he was never left unsupervised) or we would put him in his swinging chair. Quite often he would go off to sleep in the swinging chair which was great, they are semi upright so no trapped wind problems and it rocked automatically. Then he would sleep there til another feed around 10-11 when I would take him to bed with me and he would be happier to go into the cot especially if I was there (in bed with the lights out).
He also went to sleep in the evenings in the pram quite often and just slept in the hallway for a couple of hours until bedtime.

Yes that's another good point, babies feed more when they need to up your milk supply, eg for growth spurts. How on earth are mithers supposed to tell beteeen babies crying for milk 'for comfort' or because their instincts are driving them to feed more, to get more milk because that's what their body needs.

Or because they're about to come down with something. Or because they're extra thirsty, or teething, or any one of a zillion reasons they might want more milk.

Seriously, is there not something we can do about such terrible advice? The NHS hammers home the breast isbest advice while you're pregnant, but then sends legions of HVs who have not been trained to support BFing mothers, into people's homes, and many of them are actually undermining the BFing relationship.

Personally i had two HVs. One was great. The other told me to stop feeding 18mo DS to sleep. I wish i'd challenged her at the time. But i didn't know what i know now about the amazing benefits of BFing, i was going largely on instinct, and the advice of the WHO to feed till at least two. So i just smiled, nodded and totally ignored.

Neither of mine went to bed before 10 until they were around 6mo, then introduced 7pm bedtime. Both have always slept through with the exception of illness. I didn't want to waste my evenings battling when they could just be down with us and doze if they wanted!

Hope you had/are having still an ok night in the end Writer. Today's a new day, this too shall pass, onwards and upwards .

Oh yes I've just remembered that. At 4mo the evening naps were only ever naps. Sometimes he would sleep between 7-9, or 8-9, or 9-11. However it definitely wasn't 'bedtime' as in ready to sleep for a good chunk of the night until 10-11pm. Why are you trying to get him to 'go to bed' at 7-8? It does seem too early. If you stop fighting with him over this and let him stay up or nap with/on you for the early evening you may have a more pleasant time of it. You will get your evenings back presently, just not yet :)

writer hope you had a good night. I fully agree thy shaving on he breast is usually the answer to anything!!! With my DS (16 weeks) if he is asleep on us but crying as soon as out down it is usually hunger and a feed solves it relatively quickly.

Sorry, above that should say "or any one of a zillion reasons they might want more milk, or to BF for another totally valid reason "

because BFing is so much more than simply food. I think that gets forgotten sometimes.

Morning everyone,

He went 6.5 hours, one up and fed, then went just over another two hours. This is his typical patten once he does eventually go to sleep. He's now sitting on my lap, chuckling away and trying to eat his sock

He's been in his Crib now for about a month and it's only in the last 10 days (give or take) that these nightmare bedtimes have started. Prior to this he'd have a feed, be put down awake in his cot, gurgle and chuckle quite happily and then settle himself off to sleep within 30 minutes.

However, I've spoken to DH and we are definitely going to try the cot tonight and we are definitely having a much later bedtime. As a previous poster said my evenings are hell so why do I keep doing it?

The HV had said to me during his colicky crying sessions lasting hours at night, that I shouldn't always go straight to "put him to the breast" option to soothe him as he'd then get used to feeding to sleep and it would be a bad habit to break. He was about 6 weeks at the time. I ultimately always did put him to the breast though because it was what he seemed to want and need. I go to a breast feeding support group every week and they were also quite shocked by this advice.

As you say penguin - today is a fresh new day and I'm going to keep an eye on his naps today and try to make sure he has them regularly.

Lovely - I did wonder too. But , you know, don't troll hunt and don't assume all is as it seems...