Misery loves company: to ride it out or Something Must be Done- pick your camp :)

[DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep]

Hello again all- may the sleepers continue sleeping, the new arrivals due or here get the idea very quickly and the rest of us see the light at the end of the tunnel!

Edenrose Don't worry about the plagioceohaly. DS1 had/has it. Now that he's got hair you can't tell the back-right of his head is a bit flat. Some kids lose it altogether without any effort on the part of the parents. I don't honestly think there's much you can do to reverse/prevent it TBH.

Right then felkov m'dear. What's the problem with your neck and feeding lying down? Aunties Elph and Dreaming are in the business of dodgy bodies (OT and physio respectively), and have BFed five babies between us, so may be able to brainstorm alternatives. Co-sleeping and feeding lying down are really the only ways of getting through this mire.

Have I brought this on myself by using boob too often, just because it's the only thing that seems to work?

You've answered your own question there. It's the only thing that seems to work. She has to sleep. How else were you going to do it? DS1 got fed to sleep every night from birth to 17 months. Awake for boob every hour of the night. Dreaming's DD fed to sleep - slept through from nine weeks old. My DS2 does not feed to sleep for night sleep because I hothoused it out of him from birth thinking it would reduce the night wakings. Awake every couple of hours on a good night. Last night he was awake every 20-40 minutes after midnight. Babies sleep, or they do not sleep. The end. Nothing you have or haven't done has made them that way. Anyone that tells you otherwise has a right to be thoroughly slapped about their smug, well-slept faces.

should I ride it out a little longer, or try something radical?

Whatever you decide to do, you will not be judged for here. We've run the gamut here from me who has tried every leave-em-to-cry 'solution' in the book, to Hear who I think wafted a few crystals around her DD after consulting The Goddess. All strategies have been equally ineffective. Coming from the strategies of CC/CIO - yes, I tried them with DS1 more than once, I wish I never had, and I certainly won't even consider them with DS2. They might work miraculously and forevermore in three days for some people, and these people will swear blind that they are guaranteed solutions. They are not. You run the very real risk of putting you and your baby through that hell and having it not work. Or, if it does work briefly, you then have to do it again and again after every bout of illness or teething. But you may be one of those who gets a complete seachange in three days. You can't know until you try, but only try if you know that there's a very real possibility that it will fail.

Some bits of The No Cry Sleep Solution worked a little bit for me. Google Pantley Pull-Off for starters but it might be worth buying the book to see if any of it works for you. The Infant Sleep Information Source (ISIS) website is also a brilliantly reassuring resource on the realities of infant sleep. Having an evidence base to reassure you that what is happening with your baby is within the realm of normal, and is actually survivable, goes some way towards making it just that little bit more bearable.

The thing that ultimately worked for a few of us on here was this sleep consultant who uses very gentle strategies and does not leave to cry. She basically uses gradual retreat but with a whole extra dimension of magical trickery to support the process, such that you end up with a lot less crying than you might have expected once you get to the withdrawing bit, and the results are lasting. DS2 (also five months old) is booked in with her for the end of Feb, as are a few others on this thread.

Right. I really need to go to sleep myself before my little darlings start tag-teaming me. Night all.

Turns out I didn't need to worry about feeding to sleep as she is not yet in bed having woken up as soon as her head hit the mattress. I have been doing this since I got home from work at six and am thoroughly miserable.

She's got a cold which isn't helping but am currently feeling a total failure as have to get her up again for tomorrow in nine hours and can see she's exhausted. Just to help, DH has just been in to tell me it's my own fault for not leaving her to cry months ago.

Sorry, am totally moaning. anyone want to challenge my three hour failed bedtime record .

Raspberry am on your behalf with your DH. I had exactly the same with my OH and it's infuriating. What you need right now is a supportive hug and a bloody break! Give DH Elph's last post to read and digest - as usual she has put things perfectly.

Yes have been there with the 3 hour bedtimes on many occasions with DD1. She now goes to bed happily by herself for me or OH. I get the occasional call up if she is not sleepy or is poorly but that's fine. I never left her to cry. Not once. It will get better, this will not last forever....

Hah! I laugh in the face of 3 measly hours

Also your dh is being a prat. As elphsays cc or cio are not magic solutions and have never really produced lasting good sleep for anyone on this thread. I would suggest he does some flipping research before he starts throwing the blame around

By the way, have you tried the mystical blanket wrapping trick when putting her down? Feed to sleep. Wrap firmly in warm blanket while they are still snuggled in arms. Make sure the blanket goes over the back of the head and then put them down blanket and all (possibly whispering some sort of invocation to the Goddess of your choice). It also helps to warm the sheet as well when it's cold like this.

Sorry if you are already trying this one. If they have a cold you could just be in for a night of horror. Ummmm... I generally also supliment offerings to leafy gods with lots of drugs (for you or the baby, whoever is in most need)

Ooo... Just realised your dd might be too big for blanket wrapping now. The only other thing I used to do was letting her feed to sleep and then sort of sliding down the bed so you are lying down and then sneakily removing your limbs from under her. I fed to sleep until dd was 18 months and cuddled her to sleep on my lap until she was gone 2. I still do it sometimes now.

She will happily go to bed for me or dh now and usually only wakes once a night to come into our bed. We coslept completly for the first year and part of the night since then, letting her have access to our bed when she wakes in the night.

I have done some gradual retreat but it never really stuck and I've never left her to cry at all. I think I've probably done more Riding the mo fo out then anyone else on the thread and I am pretty sure she isn't really noticeably worse then any of the others with the exception of not staying in her own bed. However, i'm not really bothered enough about not cosleeping to stand in cold corridors half the night so am happy to live with that for now.

I'm just saying this to reassure that even if you are as slack as me things will improve in time. You will sleep again, I promise

Lying sobbing in bed, just told my baby I hate her :(, not coping at all. Awake since 3, every 30-60 mins before that. We're not due to work with Ann till end of march, may crack up before then.

Thanks Chocolate and Hear, is nice to know we're not alone. It's not the night waking so much now, I'm more than used to it and now we cosleep she settles quickly most of the time, it's the nit actually having an evening to speak of. DHs view is that everyone else we know left theirs to cry and they all sleep better than DD so it must work.

Something under her head is a good idea Hear, may try that. She's in sleeping bags at the minute. We only actually had two wake ups, think I knicked her out with nurofen.

scotty I have been in your position many, many times. Her age was about my lowest point, especially since everyone we knew was getting better sleep. You will come and she will get better.

Oh dear, scotty When it's lighter outside and she smiles at you it'll all be fine again. We've had a similar night. WTF is with this 20-30 minute thing?

You won't crack up. Honestly, you won't. I said upthread that 16-20 weeks was probably the worst time for me with DS1 - not in terms of his sleep, but how defeated I felt by it. You said she's a sick fountain...have you tried eliminating anything to see if she perhaps has any intolerances?

Scotty, we had a rough night, too, must be something in the stars... I'm hanging onto DS now in my lap hoping to keep the restless wriggler asleep until 8am. Have been stuck here since 5:50am. you know what? I've had "hate my baby" moments too over the past month... Just remember she will smile at you in daylight and be the most precious thing ever!!! Dr. Bill Sears writes about babies having nighttime personalities... And the particular challenges and rewards of "high-need" babies, who (not coincidentally) tend to be high-touch as well. Like Elph says, I don't think we get a choice! They come as they come. But, Sears says, if you resent your baby then gentle modification is important to keep you happy and sane!!

Thanks for the encouraging words everyone and sympathy to everyone who has had a similarly rubbish night. She's still not been back to sleep since 3, crazy baby. Making DD1 give me hugs to make me feel better!

Oh and to reassure anyone who is going through this with their first, DD1 was the worst sleeper of all my friend's babies but probably the easiest in terms of daytime temperament, hoping for the same thing this time!

Hear I'm so sorry for your loss, It must be one of the most awful things

Scotty I'm sorry you had such a bad night. You didn't really mean it and she will never know so please don't beat yourself up over it. I found months 4-6 the worst regression wise then it got a bit better.

Sorry everyone has had a challenging night. We've had several bad nights here, in part my own doing as I'm trying to get him out of the Sleepyhead grand before we start with Ann. Also because he was starting to climb all over it and I was worried it might be a safety issue (can you say pfb anyone?). Anyway, I'm going to stick with it but it has meant that when he wakes I'm up for an hour or more trying to get him back down in the cot. Can't get him off the boob and then when I do and try and put him down he wakes and we start all over again. Sigh. He does look so little in his cotbed (he's really not that little, he is one ) but surely he'll get used to it eventually??

Amazingly, yesterday he slept for 2hrs15m in the afternoon. This is the longest since he was a newborn! I had to wake him in the end as he'd be going to bed so late (he always needs a good 4 hours at least between nap and bedtime). The tiredness is obviously catching up with him.

We have vaccinations today so that will be fun...

I have the toddlercalm book too, it's one of several including the Laura Markham book that I have not had a chance to read. I've always loved reading and have read nothing but sleep books on my iPhone kindle app for over a year. Hopefully I'll get to it at some point! There don't seem to be any local classes running locally at the moment.

Hello! I have a 3 month old who sleeps ok but deteriorating and I'm scared is going to end up really awful. I'm sorry if this is a really stupid thing to ask but given that some of you have had success with a sleep consultant, is there anything you with hindsight would have done differently earlier? Or was it a matter of waiting until your babies were old enough to train?

Scotty, we've all been there! Can you try and get some sofa time today with TV for your DD1 and whatever works with DD2? My DD2 was dreadful as a newborn, had to be upright most of the time and certainly for all sleeps. I used to get her off in the sling with jiggling and then cautiously lower myself so I was sitting upright with lots of cushions. I could doze a little that way while DD1 was occupied with cbeebies. That's pretty much how I 'slept' at night for the first 8 weeks or so too until I discovered that she would sleep on her side in a sleepyhead.

Attitude, can you lie next to the cot until DS falls asleep? That's pretty much where I am with night wakings with DD2 having night weaned. We have mixed nights at the moment. Usually 3/4 wakings between 12 and 6 but sometimes she will settle quickly other times its an hour or more (3.5 the other night which was just perfect because OH and I actually had a night out and I might have celebrated night weaning a little too enthusiastically... )

Splendide have you read the No Cry Sleep Solution? There's some useful stuff in there. Our experience on this thread is that whilst you can try and encourage self-settling (i.e. not feeding or rocking to sleep), this does not necessarily lead to STTN. It might mean an easier evening however, which has been my experience with DD2

(I AM NOT SAYING THAT EVENINGS ARE GOING WELL OR ANYTHING DO NOT JINX ME)

Sorry for shouting but our theory is that our babies read this thread and punish us for reporting any good things

Just wondering with all the bad nights going on whether babies are a bit cold? I've always found with my two that the guidelines for what to wear at night are just not enough to keep them warm. DD2 is currently in a grosuit with the padded arms and 3.5 tog sleeping bag even though her room is usually around 17. She never feels too hot on her chest or back though. DD1 recently started waking a bit more so we've changed her duvet to a warmer one and she has been a little better.

Finally, I've been putting a hot water bottle in DD2's room (for me not her!). Makes the freezing hallway traipse much easier when I know I've got a warm duvet to wrap myself in while I wait for her to go back to sleep

is there anything you with hindsight would have done differently earlier?

Yes. Not had children. Tis the only solution

I had the benefit of 'hindsight' when I had DS2, splendide. Thanks to DS1, I had read every sleep book on the market, knew every trick and then some and was sleep-deprivation hardened enough to do whatever it took to 'make' DS2 a good sleeper. I did absolutely everything 'right' and then some. It hasn't made one iota of difference. He's just a born non-sleeper like his brother (who also wasn't too bad up until three months-ish then went feral).

Just do whatever you can to optimise sleep until your baby is six months then decide what you want to do then.

Attitude good luck with the vaccs!

Splendide like Elph I did everything 'right' the second time and while initially it seemed to work we've still ended up in sleep hell. Some babies are just born not to sleep well!

Chocolate interesting point about temperature as DD2 started sleeping badly as it got colder and while the house is warm in the evening it drops to 14 or 15 overnight and DD2 is definitely a colder baby than DD1. We have her in a long sleeve vest, a babygro and a 2.5 tog sleeping bag but maybe that's not enough? How many layers do others go with? We're in Scotland (you'd never have guessed from my name. ..) so it really is blooming cold!

Scotty, maybe worth trying a short sleeve vest as well to see if it makes any difference? I check their body temperature (feel their chest and back) - they all have freezing hands and feet at this age, its normal, think its due to poor circulation but expect our medical experts Elph and Dreaming would know more. I love the padded arm grosuit - partly because they are actually long enough for DD2, normal babygros seem to finish halfway to her wrists! DD2 is also in a warmer sleeping bag - I bought second hand from eBay before it got really cold as they're flipping expensive! I've also tucked a blanket over her on extra cold nights - totally against SIDS advice I know but I'm usually asleep (or awake!) next to her for a good bit of the night and I use a cellular blanket in case it does end up over her head (it never has yet).

Throwing SIDS advice out the window here as well due to a 13-14 degree bedroom at night. Swaddled in a flannelette sheet, put inside a 2.5 tog sleeping bag, covered with a fleece blanket folded over on itself a few times over a sleep suit and body suit. I can't imagine he's at the slightest risk of SIDS. He's not asleep long enough to go into deep sleep, surely

Hmmm, think I'm going to up the ayers!

And where do you get a padded arms gro suit?

Oh well it was worth asking I guess. Thanks all

I got a bit worried about him being chilly, mainly his arms. Since he got a bit older I've always added a layer more than grobag suggests. I ended up buying a couple of the travel sleeping bags from JoJo Maman Bebe as they have detachable arms. He seems cosier in those and at the moment I still add a babygro and vest. His room currently goes down to 16 at around 4am but so far it's not been too cold here.

I've not tried lying next to the cot. Hand on chest and shushing etc. rarely works anymore, normally he just fusses until I pick him up and feed him. Worth a try although there's not much room as he's in the smallest bedroom. I'll take some cushions in tonight. That'll show DH there's a point to those throw pillows I bought for our bedroom!

Injections not too bad. He cried for a short while but was pretty good. Now I will await with dread the side effects. He's generally unsettled and whingy a couple of weeks after them although we are still in a wonder week phase too and he's been rather clingy.

Hi all.

Scotty I'm in Scotland too and have been wondering whether cold makes a difference. the only time DD has ever slept more than 3hrs in a row was when we stayed at MILs overnight snd she has the heating on full blast ALL the time. so last night i cranked our heating up to 20 degrees (usually its set at 17 but drops to about 14) and while DD still woke up 6 times demanding boob she seemed to settle more quickly. could be a coincidence but will try again tonight...

thanks Elphaba for your words of wisdom. i have some fused vertebrae in my neck and limited shoulder movement due to v tight muscles so lying down feeding is pretty painful. but I'd love there to be a way to do it if i could find a comfy position!

OK. How about something like this? (just with one baby, obvs, but it's how you can change sides) Weight of your head, neck and top of your shoulders can be fully-supported by pillow/s which are still well-away from baby. Baby can sleep with head on your shoulder when feeding has finished, on top of the blanket covering you, or you may be able to perfect a side-ways slide, the like of which Hear described earlier, if you put her on top of a blanket draped over your shoulder, under DD, IYSWIM?