Misery loves company: to ride it out or Something Must be Done- pick your camp :)

[DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep]

Hello again all- may the sleepers continue sleeping, the new arrivals due or here get the idea very quickly and the rest of us see the light at the end of the tunnel!

Elph that sounds awful...is your DS1 still being a bit better at least? 4.45 isn't even early, it's night time.

I may join you in the gin, am currently stuck up here trying to resettle DD who is throwing a tantrum because I won't let her yank my hair until she falls asleep. Wouldn't mind so much if it hadn't taken so long the first time because DH left his phone in here which of course bleeped just as she was drifting off...

First rule of Sleep Club, Raspberry - never mention anything that is going well. This thread has an uncanny ability to turn good sleeping bad.

I have decided that even if it takes goose fat and a shoehorn, I'm keeping DS2 in the co-sleeper cot until we start work with Ann rather than put him in his own room at six months. He's millimetres away from being too big for it but I cannot be traipsing up and down that freezing cold hallway every 20-40 minutes from midnight and risk waking DS1 up as well. I'll just end up co-sleeping in the front bedroom yet again. With both of them.

Hello ladies, wondering if I can join you? Had hellish frequent/early waking with DD1 (discovered that 4.45 is indeed the morning, in fact anything after 4am is :() so hoped for a sleeper this time. Thought I had one, DD2 only woke1-3 times a night till 3 months and gradually started adding more wakings so that at 4.5 months she wakes after 5-90 mins, won't feed back to sleep and is often awake for a couple of hours during the night too (last night it was 4 hours). Not sure if it started as a regression but sadly it's just a pattern now, and a damn sight harder than last time as I can't just flop on the sofa the next day :(. None of my RL friends has experience of sleep this bad so would love people to commiserate with! Already on waiting list for a sleep consultant my friend used!

Hi Scotty, come on in and get comfortable. You can come and moan as much as you like here, we're all used to sleep deprivation hell. You're also not alone with multiple bad sleepers, my DD2 and Elph's DS2 defied all predictions (hmmm) that they would be STTN at about ten minutes old (which frankly was completely deserved after the non-sleeping hell our first two put us through...)

DD2 has just turned 1 and I'm trying to sleep train using gradual retreat having night-weaned a couple of weeks ago. So far there hasn't really been any retreating though, or any real improvement, and I have to confess to hand-holding last night as I was soo desperate to get DD2 back to sleep after a total non sleep night the night before. It worked (for an hour and a half anyway!) but am now kicking myself as it took months to wean DD1 off the middle of the night hand holding...

Elph, when DD1 outgrew the co-sleeper, I squeezed the cot in next to my bed. I didn't side-car it (it has rounded sides) but at least I didn't have to do the hallway traipse I am doing it now instead in January how sensible

I also worked out that DD2 is some sort of mind-reader, so I can't even think positive sleep things otherwise SHE KNOWS and PUNISHES ME for it!

Does anyone run parent calm classes?! OH and I had a disagreement over dealing with a tantrum last night that basically turned into WW3 over a piece of plastic toast!?! He very much sees tantrumming as 'naughty' behaviour rather than understanding it is just a show of emotions. Not sure how I can make him understand, there's no way he'll read anything about it. Sigh.

Chocolate Our bedroom's just not big enough for that, unfortunately. The co-sleeper only just fits as it is and DS2 will be going into a cot bed.

Upon reflection, I might let him start the night in his own room, so he gets used to falling asleep in there (who knows? He might like it so much he'll stay asleep! ) then bring him into the co-sleeper at the point it gets unsustainable.

The ToddlerCalm class, even with a dud instructor, is actually good at spelling out how tantrums are definitely NOT naughty, as a child needs to understand the effects of its behaviour on others for that to happen. Under the age of about six, they just can't do empathy, so they're not actively trying to piss you off because it doesn't occur to them. Maybe go to the ToddlerCalm website and see if there's a class you can both go to?

Had to force feed dd paracetamol at 3am as she was coughing like mad and getting hot again. Why is it that she will happily take medicine at any time except when she really, really needs it? Thankfully dh is a pro at squirting it into her cheek while I hold her still. Thankfully she settled back to sleep reasonably quickly once it kicked in.

Thankfully I think dh and I are pretty much on the same page with parenting though I think I am probably slightly more on the woo side then him.

He has been known to get in a rage and make outrageously ridiculous threats once or twice. My favourite was when he got so annoyed he declared 'that's it, no doing anything fun until you have brushed your teeth!'. Dd of course just sat down on the floor and proceeded to show all the signs of having amazing fun with a random bit of paper she picked up. I took great pleasure in waiting to see how dh was going to remove all possibility of fun from a determined 2.5 year old with an awesome imagination

We do try and stick to playful methods or reasoning to persuade her to do what we need but have on occasion had to pin her down and put clothes on her when we have to go out and she just decides she doesn't fancy wearing clothes that day. This doesn't really work anymore though as she is now able to take them off again as quickly as we can get them on. I have yet to discover a foolproof method of getting clothes on a toddler who is dead set on today being a naked day

There is a class locally I think, but it did say it was her first one, so I wasn't that sure. Think I would have to trick OH into going too... any suggestions?

I fully get how difficult it is to remain calm and playful when said toddler seems completely opposed to doing anything you want them to do and you are fed up and exhausted because you haven't slept for three years and you have a baby clinging on to your legs and wailing at the top of their lungs. But I do at least try...

DD1 also likes naked days. She also likes choosing her own clothes and putting them on these days so yesterday she wore one of her old t-shirts that I got out recently for DD2 (it was, um, 'snug'!) and another long sleeved t-shirt for a skirt. It was an interesting look although the colours did coordinate nicely . We weren't going anywhere so I didn't bother trying to change her. Hear have you tried just letting her go outside with no clothes on?! Might she realise that its bloody freezing and give in and wear clothes?

Yesterday was not a good day for potty training either (ha, like we've ever had one of those), she wouldn't wear a nappy with her 'eclectic' look which resulted in one wee on the kitchen floor, another in the lounge next to the flipping potty and later on decided to remove her nappy mid-poo. Thankfully that one at least was in the bathroom and even better, it was OH who discovered it

We've gone for the cot in our room option though she rarely manages more than 45 mins before she's awake and refusing to go back to sleep any way other than pinned down on our bed so her arms don't flail and wake her . Bizarrely moving to her own room at 10 monthsdid massively improve DD1's sleep so that she only woke twice a night and started the day at 4am.

Scotty have you tried any sort of bed nest or a rolled towel under the sheet? DD2 was in a swaddle up until 5/6 months and a sleepyhead until 7 months. She also would only sleep on her side until she could turn herself over and since then has slept on her tummy. I was firmly told off by the HV for not rolling her over onto her back each time (!!!!!) until I put her down on the change mat and she saw how she flipped herself over - then agreed that it would be impossible to keep her on her back. Not to mention the fact that she would instantly awake from the deepest sleep the second you put her on her back...

She was in a swaddle pod till about 6 weeks but she's massive so was growing out of it and fighting her hands out too. No probs transitioning out of swaddle to sleeping bag, oddly flailing arms is a more recent thing . Anyone else have rubbish naps too?

Yep. Rubbish naps unless they're on me.

DD2 won't even have a decent one on me!

Rubbish napper here, too, Scotty, unless my DS is wedged in my arms or up against my tummy (in bed). Just attempted pre-warmed crib mattress in my spare bed with me sitting beside him, keeping my hand on his tummy. We managed 20 minutes. Should I be pleased or despairing? Part of the challenge is that DS has mild-to-moderate plagiocephaly, so I'm using a Sleepcurve mattress to try and save his noggin... But he of course HATES said mattress!! Sigh.

Hear so sorry to hear about your mum and the added stress of an unwell DD. Hope she's better soon and you are supported through the coming days.

Elph and Dreaming - no, am an East dweller rather than NW. There must have been multiple Toddlercalm courses on last weekend! Cloth nappies - DS is in Bambino Mio all-in-ones; he is super skinny, there are 3 month olds with bigger bottoms, and so we have problems with the cuffs leaking (and also with the other brands I tried, including two-part systems - and anyway I'm not shelling out again for a different sort!) Can only imagine this would be worse at night so I haven't risked cloth at night, given how full the nappy is in the morning.

Elph we moved DS out of his co-sleeper cot at the start of this month as he absolutely filled it, but have replicated the same arrangement in our spare room by taking the side off his cotbed and putting it next to the spare bed. Hopefully this will be the start of an Ann-fuelled plan to eventually get the 4th side on and get him sleeping in the cot alone... at the moment DH or I spend most of the night in the spare bed (and sometimes he climbs out of the cotbed to be a bit closer). We are trying with DH in there at the moment as otherwise he spends the whole night trying to climb down my top and access milk, and I'm not prepared to feed more than a couple of times a night. I don't think he's really a boob-monster like your two, he just doesn't know how else to calm down in the middle of the night. Strangely he wasn't a boob-monster as a newborn either - this is one reason I've recruited Ann's help, as he doesn't seem to quite fit the 'typical' profile of frequent wakers.

Scotty rubbish naps here too - most often only 30 min (and sometimes only one of those a day!) even if they're on me, in the cot, in the buggy, whatever...

Scotty, what about pram or sling naps? How old is your DD1 and how is her sleeping now? DD2 went through a sling/chest only phase of napping and sleeping. She was happier in the co-sleeper once she was rolling onto her tummy and I would lie next to her until she fell asleep with occasional patting. She would cry but is a dummy monster so crying was intermittent and if it ever got hysterical, I would pick her up again. She now settles well in her cot in her own room just wish she didn't wake every 1-2 hours from 12 till 6

Hi there i hope you don't mind me adding a wee message here. I'm slowly losing my mind due to lack of sleep and seriously considering that Something Must Be Done. i just don't know what to do!

DD is 5 months and EBF. she wakes up 8 to 10 times a night and will only settle with a boob. i end up dozing a bit while she feeds but I'm worried about SIDS risk as i usually feed her sitting up in bed with her on a pillow (tried feeding lying down but really sore due to an old whiplash/car accident injury). can you sage folks offer any wise words? should i ride it out a little longer or try something radical?

Fratercula DS1 is the skinniest beanpole alive and he was fine with TotsBots Bamboozles and wraps for night if you think those might be worth a try? If you want to PM me, I'd be happy to send you one plus a wrap to try before you buy. He's in Issy Bears at night now but they take a bit of breaking-in to reach full strength.

I will qualify my 'rubbish naps unless they're on me', Scotty, by adding that they are kept longer than 20 minutes because I stuff a boob in his face at the slightest stirring. How on earth could I get through a full episode of Mr Selfridge if I didn't do that?!

felkov You're telling a painfully familiar tale there. My dinner awaits so I shall be back in a bit with some wise words if no one else has beat me to it.

Hi felkov :waves:, will she settle any other way? I refuse to feed more often at night than I do during the day so max 4-5 feeds and cuddles the rest of the time, though it wouldn't have worked with DD1 who only settled to boob, but it might mean less sitting up if it worked for you.

Chocolate she'll only scream in the pram :(. Most of her naps are sling naps which is the best chance of getting more than an hour but sometimes she'll just do half an hour even there. It's great at the weekend, DH will go for epic walks, which I can't do with a 3 year old, and she'll actually get decent naps! DD1 is now what I would consider a normal sleeper, roughly 7-6 most nights, up during the night to pee or because she's scared a couple of time a week, sometimes up between 5-6 but happy to read books in her room till the gro clock says it's morning. She was still waking for the day 4-5am till she was 2.5 but the gro clock really did help. At least I have hope that even hourly/early wakers can eventually change! How old are everyone else's DCs?

Elph, irritatingly DD2 won't even stay asleep with boob lodged in mouth, grrr, was my go-to sleep method with DD1 and I miss my telly, it's not the same viewed while pacing the room with a baby in the sling :(

We also have Bamboozles for nights, although we recently had to make the rise smaller again as DD has slimmed down so much since becoming mobile. It's strange as the other tots bots we tried didn't suit her at all.

felkov I remember the dozing off sitting up, I used to prop myself on loads of pillows and make sure covers were well out of the way. Head towards the inside of the bed so she was more likely to fall inwards if she did drop. This was before I gave up and began co-sleeping.

We have a travel cot in our room with a proper matress, as DD outgrew bedside crib before six months. Since then we've been finding reasons not to move her mainly because I can't face the trek to her room next door. Going to do it as soon as she seems well settled at childminder. Really need to sort routine though as she has fallen asleep during evening BF almost every day recently and since we usually do nappy change after I have to wake her. Tonight I put her in PJs first and she dropped off again...so we appear to be back to feeding to sleep after months of not doing it.

thanks for the replies!

I've tried to settle her without a boob but it usually just escalates from whining/whimpering to full on crying. every now and then (about twice in last 2 months) she has settled if i carry her and sing a soft song but then she wakes up the instant i try to put her down or woe betide if i step on a creaky floorboard!! Have I brought this on myself by using boob too often, just because its the only thing that seems to work?

Hear so sorry for your loss

Edenrose yep that sounds familiar last few nights I have managed to get him to sleep on the bed next to me for first time ever! Did not want to co-sleep but soooo exhausted he will still only go 2 ish hours but that's heaven compared to previous 15 mins
Scotty and felkov sounds like a late 4 month sleep regression for you two too?! I came to this thread asking for advice regarding it. Seems like the only thing to do is ride it out and fingers crossed it passes!

Gosh, I must say all these little ones on the thread is like reliving dd's first year (she is almost 3 now). She used to have such bad wind that I just couldn't feed her lying down and had to have her upright for at least 20 mins after every feed (which was interesting when she was waking every half an hour). I had an amazing elaborate pillow arrangement that allowed easy transition between sitting and lying down. I got really good at dozing while propped up with pillows and holding a baby. Glad that's all over

Saying that dd now has the Cough of DOOOOOOM!!!

After 3 hours sitting with her while she tried desperately to sleep we have resorted to giving her every (child safe) drug in the house in the vain hope it might give her a few hours. Poor little mite.

We may have been an early regression but sadly it dawned on me the other day that at 4.5 months she's now been a rubbish sleeper for a third of her life and I'm pretty sure it's how I've handled the changes that have been the problem.

Felkov don't beat yourself up, I think some babies are just born boob monsters!

All this real nappy chat is making me feel so guilty, we used them with DD1 but I've felt so overwhelmed with having two kidlets/DD2 being a sick fountain and already generating so much laundry that I haven't used them yet this time .