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Misery loves company: to ride it out or Something Must be Done- pick your camp :)

999 replies

DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep · 29/06/2014 21:50

Hello again all- may the sleepers continue sleeping, the new arrivals due or here get the idea very quickly and the rest of us see the light at the end of the tunnel!

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Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep · 16/01/2015 22:14

oooh that sounds good elph I'd love to take my dh kicking and screaming to a Toddlercalm workshop! Yes. 1:1 and more attention /engagement works here too. My biggest issue is following through the staying with and empathising throughout a tantrum with 2 other small children also wanting and needing my attention- and various other aspects of gentle parenting that are hard with 3 so small- but I don't know how to solve that. I am muddling through. I would be furious if I thought my dh would naughty step ours. I doubt he would be he doesn't really "get" half of it himself. His refusal to read anything I suggest/email him doesn't help.
See with that elph I'm staying gentle and child led. Dt2 will tell me he's going to a wee, he's going to do a poo but he insists he'll use a nappy . I know he could be toilet trained now but as I won't bribe him or encourage him more than I am (by offering the toilet or potty) I'll be changing nappies a lot longer.... He did 2 poos on the toilet last week and a wee on the potty today. Tomorrow I doubt he'll sit on it. One day, one day.... DD had no rewards, bribes, charts or incentives, ever. She's been intrinsically rather than extrinsically motivated for these things and done them just fine. I know I just need patience but just fucking toilet train already child!

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RaspberryBlonde · 16/01/2015 23:03

The workshop sounds really interesting Elph, would be interested to hear how you get on with your DH as think we will ultimately be having similar issues here...we are agreed on fundamentals like no smacking but have noticed mine is quick to call DD naughty for typical one year old behaviour like throwing her empty plate on the floor or crawling off while she's meant to be having a nappy put on. Am trying not to say 'no' to much and remind her what she should be doing but she's probably too little just yet. like you Dreaming don't think DH would actually read anything. Mind you he generally tolerates what he sees as my hippy ways so we'll see.

1:1 and cuddles has definitely worked for us during clingy phases here and interestingly me going back to work doesn't seem to have triggered one so maybe all those hours of carrying her around the house paid off!

ElphabaTheGreen · 17/01/2015 08:51

Thing is we were at a total impasse with toilet training DS1. He was doing a poo you could set your watch by every day yet refusing to say he needed to go. At the same time, he went into total nappy refusal. There were times I just gave up trying to get a nappy on him because he'd just rip it off, and I was usually having to try and battle it onto him with a wailing baby in a sling. Three days of a singing Thomas the Tank engine potty and a chocolate button for successful use and he's been dry during the day since Christmas Eve and asks to take his nappy off as soon as he wakes up so he can use the loo. Chocolate buttons are now a distant memory (thank God) although he does ask us to give his Peppa Pig a sticker if she uses the potty Grin

Kaidensmum · 17/01/2015 13:07

Hi ladies hope you don't mind me posting, just hoping one of you experienced people will be able to advise me (please!). I'm working my way through this thread and frantically making notes on things that have helped you- on page 16 so far so forgive me if I have missed anything imordant Smile
Ok my ds- or s at the mo! - is 16 weeks, seems like we are going through the 4 month sleep regression or i am hoping so as I cannot deal with this as a permanent thing ??
He is ebf and up until 11 (long horrible) nights ago he had started to almost sleep through with just one quick feed, in his sleepy head in next to me crib! Thought I was so lucky with such a good sleeper - knew I shouldn't have been so smug!
Now the little angel will not go more than 15 mins in his crib, he won't go in sleepy head in our bed, he won't even lie next to me in our bed.. The only place he will sleep is in my arms where he can latch on and off nipple ?? or sometimes he will do an hour on dads chest.
I am exhausted I just want my old baby back! Please tell me this is just a regression and its just miraculously going to resolve itself very soon - like tonight?!
It does seem like he just cannot sleep from one sleep cycle to next without waking up - any tips on how to help with this? Should I be trying to teach him to self settle... Dreading it as he is the most stubborn child ever and i have a feeling he would just stay awake the full night, plus as soon as he's slightly over tired he becomes a wailing mess ??
Aargh i just don't know what to do -I just need sleep! So any advice or tips would be much appreciated ??

ElphabaTheGreen · 17/01/2015 14:55

It sounds definitely like the four month sleep regression Kaidensmum, especially since you had a good sleeper that suddenly went bad. Give it two or three more weeks and you may perhaps see an improvement.

This, sadly, is the place for babies/toddlers who were awful sleepers from birth, drove us to the brink of insanity during various regressions (YY to only sleeping on you), then actually felt slightly relieved when two-hourly wakings resumed (as it was better than every forty minutes).

Don't try and do any sleep training - not now. If you feel you must do anything where leaving to cry is required leave it until at least six months, and even then don't assume (as I did) that it's going to work.

Are you keeping on top of naps during the day? At 16 weeks, 90 minutes should be maximum awake time. Get him asleep by hook or by crook - on the boob, on your lap, in the sling - and then at least you won't have to contend with baby rage on top of exhaustion. Can you feed him to sleep while he's/you're lying down and co-sleep that way?

Other than that, all we have is Brew and Cake and hand holding. It is actually survivable. 16-20 weeks was about the time I thought I was going to die with DS1. Remarkably, we're all still here and some of us mugs are on round two. Grin

RaspberryBlonde · 17/01/2015 15:21

Definitely sounds like the four month regression, but if he was sleeping through well before he may do again. Would second Elph's suggestion of feeding lying down...I really wish that I had mastered this earlier as it would've made a big difference!

ChocolateIsMySleep · 17/01/2015 15:40

DD2 never really had the dreaded 4 month regression but there wasn't much to regress from Smile. As usual I agree with everything Elph said, especially the napping and lying down feeding to sleep, and if you can grab a nap at the same time, all the better. Don't worry about the housework and washing and rope in whatever help you can. Also don't worry about establishing bad habits, DD2 fed to sleep at least 50% of the time until she was 7 or 8 months but now at 12 months she self settles quite happily (as long as she has her dummy!)

Kaidensmum · 17/01/2015 16:38

Oooh thanks ladies I feel much more positive with you all suspecting its a regression :) fingers well and truly crossed!
Hats off to those of you that have sleepers like this and then go on to have more children - you crazy people
I read page 18ish of this thread after I wrote above post and you all say that self settlers don't equal better sleepers so yay to not feeling guilty for not putting him down 'drowsy but awake'Hmm
Elph he is actually good at napping through day -on me,pushchair or sling- deffo learnt my lesson dealing with overtired ness Wink
As for the feeding lying down... Have tried past few nights but he feeds, falls asleep and wakes up within 15 mins, same as cot Confused this is even with a full body cuddle Smile

DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep · 17/01/2015 17:17

elph I'd probably have chocolate buttoned away in that situation! Ripping nappies off with no clue?! Plus being totally predictable?! No thanks. My dt2 asked for Gruffalo pants and as last week he did 2 poos on the toilet and a wee on the potty yesterday I got him some. He won't even hold them and cried he wants to wee and poo in his nappy. So that went well Hmm

Definitely sounds like a regression for you kaidens May it pass soon. Suitable advice already given! My dd didn't have one and my boys had nothing to regress from... so I'm no use really but I'd be riding that mofo put and my dd didn't self soothe til 9 months plus but slept through til age 1 when she stopped sleeping for 6 months

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DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep · 17/01/2015 18:14

I nearly forgot elph . Which was the dairy and soya free ice cream you said was beyond delicious?! I'm finally going to get around to trying to get some. Though now I type that I seriously wonder if you can buy ice cream online?!?! Sounds like a ridiculous plan to me.

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ChocolateIsMySleep · 17/01/2015 18:20

Ps Elph, fascinated to hear about the toddlercalm class - there is no way on this earth that I'd ever get OH anywhere near something like that! This is the man who referred to 'breastfeeding nazis' in our NCT bf workshop BlushBlush (he is pro BF I hasten to add, not that he would have had any choice in the matter!)

I am reading toddlercalm book and am YY to the theory of it all but struggle in practice. A lot. Even though I know that actually I have far better results with being gentle/playful with DD1, often sometimes the nasty, shouty me wins. I can remember being shouted at and smacked by my DF and how it made me feel so I hate it when I do lose it. OH doesn't see it as a problem though, just normal way to raise kids, along with CIO etc.

Thankfully he is getting (slowly) better and we have argued far less over DD2's sleep. Naughty step and DD1's (normal) toddler behaviour is a whole new battleground though.

And don't even get me started on potty training! Suffice to say we haven't! But at least she's not taking her nappy off at the moment so we're riding that MoFo out for now...

ElphabaTheGreen · 17/01/2015 18:56

I am beyond relieved that DS1 basically decided on the potty training for himself. I am also relieved that it was easy, but I figure he had to give me a break with something given that he's a shit sleeper that eats nothing but milli-bites of beige things. I am under no misapprehension whatsoever that it had anything to do with my parenting skills. Had it been all down to me and my lack of motivation, he'd probably have started reception in his favourite monkey print nappy.

Well - ToddlerCalm. I had no problems getting DH to go, thankfully, and I feel very lucky in that respect. In the 12 years we've been together we've never had a row...until DS1 started kicking off and generally being a two year old and we realised we were trying completely conflicting parenting strategies. It bothered both of us greatly and agreed that going somewhere where we were told what we should be doing would be good because DH freely admits he would never bother reading a book about it. This, coupled with how incredibly effective Ann's strategies have been, has made DH accept that black and white old-school discipline is really not the only way. I never said the words 'gentle parenting' to him about ToddlerCalm, but I said it was 'like how Ann works' and he was totally up for it.

Now, the workshop itself was actually not great but only, I think, because the instructor was a tiny bit shit and has only been doing it since November (it does help if you can pronounce 'Piaget' correctly, I find...Hmm) but she got just enough information over that made DH realise I haven't just been making hippy shit up and that it is founded on respected child development theories. He said in the car on the way back that it was good to hear about other 'acceptable' methods of behaviour management (for want of a better term) since all anyone ever talks about is the Supernanny crap. So, for us, it was very useful in that I feel we've now gone a significant way towards singing off the same hymnsheet.

As an aside, there was a mum of a 14 month old shit sleeper there who looked like total, haunted crap. She was nearly in tears talking about him so I went up to her afterwards and had a long chat. She was so relieved, saying she'd never met anyone else with an awful sleeper, who'd also been told crap by HVs, including that breastfeeding was the cause of it all Hmm, that her shit parenting and refusal to leave him to scream were to blame blah blah blah. Suffice it to say I passed on Ann's website and my email so she has an empathetic ear if she wants it. Her DS also has a history of reflux so I told her about CMPI and soy intolerance too, which she'd never heard of. All anyone had ever suggested was lactose intolerance, natch

Dreaming Ice cream is Booja-Booja. I got it from Holland and Barrett. It's only available by post in the Home Counties for obvious transport reasons. I think Waitrose carry it as well. If you google it, they have a website that tells you about stockists.

FraterculaArctica · 17/01/2015 20:40

Elphaba I am wondering if we might be in the same part of the country... I was looking at the Toddlercalm website the other day and noticed there was a local course on today, which I thought about going to. Decided it was a bit premature in the end as DS is only 9 months, but I am feeling I ought to be a bit better prepared for parenting a toddler than I was for parenting a baby before he came! Am also keen that DH and I agree on our strategies when he gets to that age. We live in hope that he may be one of those difficult babies who turns into an easy and delightful toddler, but this could be overoptimistic!

Have you read the Toddlercalm book as well... I'd be interested to know if you think that is just as useful or more so than actually going on the course.

I have a couple of issues with the Sarah Ockwell-Smith website... one is, for someone who claims her parenting approach is evidence-based, why does she endorse homeopathy?? and also her approach to bad sleepers seems basically just to put up with it and give them what they want - as those of us up 10 times a night know, there comes a point where this just gets too much and Something Must Be Done. She doesn't really seem to acknowledge this.

DS has already woken up once tonight, but that was to do an enormous poo. So we had to get him out of his sleeping bag and change his nappy (he's in cloth during the day and disposables at night, and I feel somewhat outraged if we have to use more than one disposable in a 24 hour period, as tonight!) - he was so tired and wailed through the whole thing. Back asleep for the time being...

ElphabaTheGreen · 17/01/2015 21:07

Ha. Yeah - she's an aromatherapist among other things so she's a bit woo altogether. Some of the science-y stuff is also questionable - they went through a brain development model which was...well, I'm a neuro-specialist occupational therapist and it certainly didn't quite match my understanding of brain development or, at least, the ToddlerCalm interpretation of it is ever so slightly squiffy. The stuff in child psychological development is fine, though, as is the increased formation of synapses through parental attachment and the immature frontal lobe in toddlers (hence poor impulse control, lack of empathy etc).

I haven't read the book, though sorry, so can't confirm whether the instructor today was just putting it across badly. I don't think I'd have got a huge amount from the course had I not already done quite a lot of online reading around the subject first. Actual books have been absent from my life for some time now. Say around, two years, almost eight months for argument's sake...

I think it's probably better to wait to go on the workshop once you're in the midst of it rather than proactively as you can relate it more to your own current situation rather than have to remember stuff in a few months' time. You'll be experiencing the joys soon enough, I'm sure Grin

God I hate night time poos. Hate them. What nappies do you use that you're on sposies at night? If we are in the same neck of the woods (North West), the world's most helpful cloth nappy shop is around here if you need advice.

DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep · 17/01/2015 21:16

oooh fraticula are you Up North? I'm vaguely close ish to elph. An hour and a bit away I think anyway. I'm further north than her.

Well my dt the T was a difficult baby and is now a difficult toddler. But DT2 was an even more difficult baby and is an easier toddler apart from some biting and uber-violence carried out casually like actually physically smashing a plastic toy over his twins head

This morning I put DT the Terribleback in bed at 5:20 and told him.his light wasn't on, it was the middle of the night..I waited for the backlash- silence til 6:30 Shock Fluke I assume. Never to be repeated so easily I assume.

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DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep · 17/01/2015 21:20

Clearly the North West is where it's at Grin

I have read toddler calm. Some of it did my head in a bit. Grazing all day and no proper meals just wouldn't work with how much were out. They'd never consume protein as easy cheese and egg was/is off the cards due to the intolerances. I read that, combined with HTT and the Peaceful Parent, Happy Kids and it did all make sense. Just putting it into action with too many 3 small children is hard practically.

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RaspberryBlonde · 18/01/2015 08:29

I got very excited about a shop selling cloth nappies but having looked on the website think probably not lose enough for a visit...I am South East but my parents are in the NorthbWest...bit further south than shop though. Probably just as well as I sold cloth to DH on the basis it would be cheaper!

Hmmm, think the Toddlercalm book might wind me up a bit if it is full of slightly dodgy science. Trip to library perhaps. I am finally able to read again now I'm back at work as I commute by train. Interesting that it mentions grazing Dreaming as that might work for us, when we're at home at least. We sometimes get hysterical crying from nowhere and it's often hunger.

Grim night here as DD and DH both sniffly so there was much waking up screaming (her) and muttering grumpily (him). Going to be a long day today I think Brew. Hope everyone else's night was ok.

ChocolateIsMySleep · 18/01/2015 11:04

Hi all

Craptacular night last night. OH and I went out for a friends birthday and didn't get in till nearly midnight. OH then snored loudly until I gave up at 1.30 and went to sleep on the mattress in DD2s room. Was just going to sleep when she woke up and cried on and off for the next 3 hours. Finally got to sleep at 5, then she woke for a feed at 6 at which point DD1 woke and came into our bed and wriggled for half an hour then DD2 woke again...

Seems hard to believe she did a seven hour stretch two weeks ago, we are going backwards not forwards with sleep training... Not sure if MiL helped by rocking her back off twice when she woke while we were out. I have been strictly settling in cot. She had ibuprofen before bed too as very red cheeks so was hoping for a reasonable night...

Hope others had a better one!

HearMyRoar · 18/01/2015 11:50

Hello all. My mum died on Friday so am feeling generally sorry for myself.

Not helped by dd having a fever last night and hardly sleeping. She seems OK this morning though, which is s relief as I really want to pack her off to nursery tomorrow so I can wallow in self pity help sort out funeral stuff.

We have discovered that threats and rewards simply do not work on dd. She just looks at us scornfully and carrys on. Once she has decided something she will stick with it. She is pretty good at negotiation though so we can often come to some sort of compromise that works for everyone.

For potty training we waited until we were certain she could do it and was going significant amounts of time without a nappy. I told her everyone gets a certain amount of nappies to use in their lifetime and she was almost at the end of her allocation, and that the packet we had was her last one. She dropped them completely after that packet, day and night, and only had a few accidents while she got used to it.

I'm pretty sure none of the potty training books mentioned that method but none of the standard ways worked and we tried everything!

ChocolateIsMySleep · 18/01/2015 12:05

Hear I'm so sorry to hear about your Mum, hugs to you and your DD.

ElphabaTheGreen · 18/01/2015 13:41

FlowersFlowersFlowers Hear

I hope the end came peacefully and as you all would have wanted.

Your DD is a unique one, that's for sure Grin

calmexterior · 18/01/2015 14:07

Flowers Hear I'm so sorry.
Not much to report here as we are still cosleeping and night feeding, but I have a consultation with Nicola from child sleep solutions on Tuesday so will keep you posted!

RaspberryBlonde · 18/01/2015 15:28

Flowers Sorry to hear your news Hear, hope that you are all OK and that your DD is better tomorrow.

Edenrose206 · 18/01/2015 19:53

Hear, my condolences on the loss of your mum... I can't imagine what that must feel like! So sorry. I have to say, I'm impressed by your inventiveness in telling DD that she'd used up her lifetime allotment of nappies! She must be a very rational (and independent) little girl. Smile

Kaidensmum, I just wanted to wave a weary paw in your direction... My PFB is now five months old and happily sleep-regressing away... DH asked me last night why I was going to bed at 8:30 with the baby. By the time I'd resettled poppet 3x before midnight (DH was still up) he wasn't asking anymore!! My biggest chunk of sleep last night was 4am-6:15am. At which point PFB wouldn't go back down after his feed and so I held onto him for dear life to keep him asleep (and not risk ending up with wild-eyed crying mess) until 7:50am. I can't honestly remember how many times I got up in the night, but 1:30-3am we were up, mostly. I'm EBF'ing and yearning to start this hungry, chunky big baby on FOOD!! He is a guzzler. I feel like a husk by dawn so I know he's not just nibbling (tho he does that too, sometimes). I'm in the Ride it Out camp until he's just a bit older... I keep praying that he'll figure out how to sleep again... Even just 3-4 hours in a row would be fab. Right now, though, he sleeps with me on a spare bed and I have to maintain the same position on my side (with him tucked up against my tummy) or he wakes up and yells. Best of all, the position aggravates an old skiing injury so I wake myself up every 2-3 hours (if he sleeps that long) in groaning pain from my bad knee. Sad The second I roll onto my back, it's all over... Poppet stirs and starts to cry. Massive sympathy from me!!

Elph, thanks for the update on the ToddlerCalm approach and books. I may get BabyCalm just to see if I can add to my arsenal of techniques to soothe the little guy. Not even hugging him works to keep him asleep once he starts to come out of a sleep cycle.

He's just been boobed to sleep on his nursing pillow and I'm going to have to figure out how to get him down for Round One!! Let the snuggling commence. Tomorrow: More paracetamol.

ElphabaTheGreen · 18/01/2015 20:49

I'm afraid, Edenrose, that food made not a jot of difference to the frequency of feeds with DS1, nor did it make any difference to sleep and the same goes for all the other old-timers on here. I think if they're non-sleeping boob-monsters, by six months a huge amount of it is habitual and nothing in the way of alternative calories is going to change that.

Last night was horrific. 10 bazillion wake-ups and he was up for the day at 4:45. FOUR FORTY FIVE. A.M. Fucking swaddling...I am just seriously losing the plot. I tried a step-down thing called Swaddle Up suggested on the sleep boards. Fine-ish for two or three nights (i.e. business as usual every two hours), then awake constantly from about 1am the next night so I swaddled him fully and he was more settled. Thought I'd try as much of the night as I could with the Swaddle Up last night. Got to about 2am (maybe...I'm just addled ATM) and swaddled fully. It did nothing. Tried re-swaddling and he'd wrestled his arms up to his face before he was even half-wrapped. Tried just going cold-turkey completely tonight and he's now on his third wake-up since he went to sleep at 6:30.

WHY COULD HE NOT HAVE BEEN A SLEEPER?! WHO HAVE I OFFENDED SO MORTALLY TO DESERVE THIS TWICE IN A ROW?!