Misery loves company: to ride it out or Something Must be Done- pick your camp :)

[DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep]

Hello again all- may the sleepers continue sleeping, the new arrivals due or here get the idea very quickly and the rest of us see the light at the end of the tunnel!

Hello all!

Dreaming, sorry to hear you're having a crappy time of it again. DD1's sleep has been very mixed of late with illness and nightmares and it's bloody tough with just two of them! I also have to confess to losing it - mostly with DD1 who is such a sodding stereotypical two year old at times!

Sunbeam, I agree with Elph, how 'good' or 'bad' your LO's sleep is more about how well or not you're coping with the amount of sleep you are (not!) getting. Also find it easier second time round coping with crap sleep (apart from today when I had a slightly tearful moment when trying to ice DD2's cake during nap and the icing ran everywhere!).

Well DD2 is 1 today and we're (I'm) still having pretty shit nights. I'm trying to hold to not feeding but I gave in at 4am this morning after 4 hours of waking every 20 minutes. She then slept till 8.30... Now feeling guilty that she might actually still be hungry at night - although she eats for England all day! She's also even more clingy than usual during the day - I've even had her back in the buckle carrier a few times just so I can have two hands. She's getting heavy now through...

I'm probably gona regret posting this, but he's been in his cot asleep for 90 mins!! This is the longest he's slept in the cot without waking!!
Might go 2 bed now 2 c if I can get a few hours in before he realises & wakes up!
Night all, hope you have a better nights sleep x

Well that teaches me 4 getting over excited! I honestly thought id c some proper improvement after 10 days!
Has anyone had any success transitioning from co-sleeping to cot?! He doesn't night feed, its just purely wanting to be cuddled in my bed!

Catrina, Elph and Dreaming both have but with the help of magic Ann!

I weaned DD1 off having to hold my hand all night (she was in the cot, I was on a mattress on the floor) but it took quite a long time and bucket loads of patience (and mostly being too heavily pregnant to lie down on the floor next to the cot any more!).

Sympathies though, I'm 8 nights in to trying to sleep train DD2 to go back to sleep without milk or cuddles and frankly her sleep is getting worse each night rather than better. Last night I think I managed about 1.5 hrs unbroken sleep between 4.30 am and 6 am when DD1 woke. Much needed to get through today...

To go back to discussions a few days ago about other people's comments, the most one I ever had (from a supposed good friend!) was "do you think DD1 is so small because she is such a bad sleeper and babies grow in their sleep don't they? [and impliedly because both hers were GF - because you haven't done CC]?" So basically you're suggesting I've done my daughter long term physical harm because I didn't leave her to cry?!

No, actually I think its because her parents are both naturally quite slim and her maternal DGM and DGGM are/were both quite short... It amazes me the things that people think its OK to say when it comes to babies!

Thank you, Elph, Hear and Chocolate! That's useful to know. We had our call with Sian yesterday and she was lovely and uses gradual retreat. We are to keep a sleep diary for 5 nights then have our formal consultation on Friday. Excited and hopeful.... Famous last words

Oh Catrina don't dispair. 90 minutes is a great start. Though you came against the first rule of no sleep club: never get optimistic about improvements. All babies and toddlers secretly read this thread. They know, and will use your hope against you :o

Eden, so sorry to hear about your miscarriages.

Counting hours can drive you crazy - and it's a nonsense anyway as most of the figures are averages rather than requirements! That said, DS is more and more tired through the day, so is definitely not getting enough, but just doesn't seem able to nap more!

Chocolate that is awful . Sounds like you took it rationally but some people could really be concerned about that kind of comment.

I know the chart you mean Elph and it's the bane of my life too...DD has ever conformed in the slightest, especially when it comes to daytime sleep.

We had a decent night last night six hours straight sleep so expecting a disaster tonight...off to start bedtime now...

Here is the offending chart, just in case your blood pressure is on the low side and could do with raising.

Its lovely to read peoples comments & see your not alone. Im not sure how my friends have all managed such good sleepers!!
Thanks chocolate iv looked into Ann & although she sounds amazing im not sure its bad enough that im ready to splash the cash! My OH seems keen to try CC & although i dont run straight into him when he wakes crying, im not willing to leave him longer than a couple mins.
Lol hear as soon as i wrote the post i knew it was a bad move.
Its so frustrating that i spend my days at work giving families advice on their children then cant control my own!!!

Hahaha. How those charts make me laugh! 1.5 to 3 hours nap!? Only if I want to start my day at 3am :o

I'm also not sure I trust anyone who calls babies 'unique little squishies'

Catrina you will no doubt be amazed to learn that I also have a theory on the phenomenon known as 'everybody else gets more sleep then me'. My theory is simple, and possibly influenced by watching too much House. I hold to the belief that lots and lots of people lie, or at least exaggerate, about their children's sleep.

I would put good money on at least a number of your friends having children who are not really sleeping quite as well as they may have you believe.

I know. Shocking

Good chart, I shall show it to DD when she wakes up demanding milk any time now.

It took me two hours to get her to sleep tonight, does that count towards her nightly 12 hours?!

Mine surprised even Ann by needing less than the recommended amount of sleep and nap dropping early (hat was dt2 and he was 6 months after dd in his nap stopping).

Gradual retreat didn't work for me or elph without adding in the extra work we did with Ann. I got to the point he was falling asleep with me holding his hand but attempts to go further led to 45 minutes trying with a wound up stressed toddler more overtired by the minute.

I also belive we can't control our children and nor should we be trying! I don't mostly aim for control. We only have a few times I must be in control and that's car parks and roads. That's mostly it I think. Realising they are who they are was a breakthrough for me. I could stop worrying about control and focus more on who they are. and trying not to throttle them when they are too damn irritating

For example this winter I have entirely relinquished the coat battle. If they wish to wear a coat they do. If they don't, they don't. DD and dt2 wear their coats on cold windy days or if it's rainy. No weather condition to date has made dt the T don his coat. They all walked up a mountain in the lakes. I wore a vest, thermal top, fleece and down jacket. DD was vest, top, jumper, coat, hat, mittens. DT2 similar. DT the T? why a mere top and jumper of course. Oh- and his mittens.

Today I have put DT2 in bed for a nap ad he was cranky and seemed tired. Good bye, bedtime tonight. Sigh (though they all slept through til the first one at 6 am. If it's in brackets, it doesn't count, right? !)

If only it did Raspberry, eh?
I did find the awake times useful and accurate by and large and have always been mindful of these, as well as watching for cues, with ds for his naps & bed time. Other than that he has rarely complied. Even as a young baby he had nowhere near as much sleep as the guidelines.

Dreaming I really like your comments about not trying to control everything and letting them be who they are. I think it's easy to forget this as you get caught up in what you think is best for them or what you think they should be doing. It's a great reminder, thanks.

Sleep still slightly improved here, am hoping it continues. I have a good 6 weeks until I start work with Ann and I'm unsure whether I should be trying for my own incremental improvements or just keep everything as is so she has a steady base to work from. Any thoughts from those that have used her?

Attitude I had got rid of every conceivable sleep-prop that I could, bar the co-sleeping, before I started with Ann e.g. he didn't feed to sleep anymore, and I had exhausted every conventional method of sleep training. He had gone into complete cot-refusal by that stage and I was going to bed with him at 7:30/8 every night. He actually had a toddler bed at that stage as my final attempt at getting him to sleep was to get rid of the hated cot and get the bed to see if it helped. I slept on the floor of his room for a couple of weeks to try and get him happy with it. All he did was climb out every night and get on the air mattress with me or scream for ages if I tried to put him back into his bed. That was when I admitted defeat and desperation and stopped umming and aaahing over contacting Ann.

That table is preying on my mind now because I think it barks at you about naps being NO LONGER than two hours. After refusing to nap since 9pm, I finally got in bed with DS2 after lunch and he's been out for 3.5 hours. Meh. Face? Bovvered?

Don't wake him Elph! The sleep gods will deem you ungrateful and punish you!

I agree Dreaming, My approach is basically to make sure DD is safe and not actively destroying anything and other than that to not restrict her too much if there's no reason too.She's just not that interested in sleep. We've had a few debates about CC in our house and I feel that she is a person and just because she's little doesn't mean she can't have an opinion about bedtime even if I disagree. Leaving her to cry stresses both of us and to be honest she has far more stamina than me!

That all makes me sound very laissez fairs, but I'm not really! Other views may be available...

Hello again all. I have also made contact with Ann and we have an initial chat tomorrow... really hoping that this can be the start of better times. Attitude glad to see we have both succeeded in signing up for her help!

Dreaming also agree I want DS to be who he is not some model baby that sleeps in his cot for 12 hours without a fuss... it goes against a lot of my beliefs about parenting to push for 'independent sleeping' of the sort beloved by supernanny type books. I hate the way so many parenting gurus seem to talk as though your DC were the enemy and your whole strategy should be to outmanoeuvre and outwit them. I am nervous that Ann is going to tell me we have to put the second side on his cot and leave him alone in his room... but the sleep deprivation is doing so much damage to my mental health and marriage now that I've decided we have to go along the road of accepting someone else's advice and help, and compromise on some of the ways I might like to parent at least for now.

Elphaba I made the mistake of looking at that table first when DS was about 3 weeks old (and sleeping much less than the recommended minimum!) Being an anxious person anyway it has caused me untold amounts of stress. I don't actually know anyone with a baby the same age as DS (9 months) sleeping anything like that much - which makes me suspect it is totally, totally wrong. I have a theory that it is the 'ideal' amount of sleep only in terms of what would make parents' lives easier - nothing to do with what babies actually need. Most people I know simply aren't worrying about things like that because their babies are doing at least somewhat better at night, so they're not desperately looking for answers.

Fratercula hooray!! Let's hope she can help us both. I have our initial chat this week too. I agree with you, I don't expect him to sleep perfectly. It would be nice but I am realistic. Also my own sleep can be disturbed easily when I'm stressed etc. so I can't really expect perfection from him.

Interesting that you say your own sleep can be easily disturbed - me too... I wonder if most people on this thread are themselves not the best sleepers, like their DC? Some people seem to be able to sleep through their DC BFing, I can never do that!

We have the excitement of a house move too before we start sleep work, so hopefully a fresh start all round...

That's exciting. I hope it goes well. DH sleeps pretty well, at least he did pre baby , hopefully Ds will take after him rather than me. Mil early on told me that she always had to wake DH up, the implication was that he must take after me! My mum said I was an ok sleeper but it seems back then the advice was to leave it 10 minutes before going in

That still seems to be the advice I get from my HV... I think, 10 minutes, really? Do you have any idea how loudly the screaming would escalate in that time? (and this from the same HV who also told me to 'respond quickly in the night so they don't really wake themselves up') I also think 10 minutes would seem an age to a poor baby lying there frightened in the dark [you can see why my DS doesn't sleep, though...]

10 minutes to a baby must seem like forever, I'm sure they have no sense of time. There's no way I would leave him to cry on his own like that. I'd have to be absolutely desperate and I'm nowhere near that desperate. I'm aware that I am lucky compared to some though. I can get him down in the cot and he's never woken hourly or half hourly.

Fratercula I was a great sleeper pre DD, very rarely woke up overnight, she gets it all from DH who is much more restless. That's why I miss sleep so much! You said what I was trying to around leaving them alone much better than me.

Hope those waiting to see Ann get some good results.