Very high-need baby how to help get to sleep once too heavy to rock (sorry long and complicated)?

[bumbleweed]

I have a very high-need dd who is now 9 months and has always struggled to get herself off to sleep. We have always used a combination of rocking, singing, breast-feeding her to sleep with lesser and greater degrees of success over the last 9 months.

About a month ago she stopped going to sleep on a feed, and we started using the sling to rock her to sleep. But she's just to heavy now and it pulls on my shoulders, and its no good on an evening when I am tired or really at any time anymore. We also have a hug-a-bub sling which doesnt pull on shoulders but I cant get her out of it without shaking her around and waking her up.

I dont believe in controlled crying or any form of crying which involves leaving dd.

I think she wants to be able to go to sleep other ways but cant - she fights in my arms when I try to rock her on my shoulder, bites my arms and neck, nips me, struggles to be on the floor or bed, but then wants to be up again, refused to feed then asks to feed, but bites my nipple. Tries to crawl off the edge of the bed, alternately crying and smiling.

I decided I would try to teach her to go to sleep in my arms but with me sitting down so less tiring for me, but a transition. She just does all of the above fussing, and it takes hours and hours for her to tire herself to the degree that she asks to feed.

We tried lying her down on our bed, and cuddling up next to her and soothing her to sleep lying down, so at least she was crying but with one of us cuddling her. But she has never been able to just lie down and go to sleep and has never slept in our bed, so I think she confuses it with play time which we often do on the big bed.

I am so confused and at wits end. I even tried just keeping her up later on an evening until she was tired enough to just feed to sleep (previous post about a month ago) but she just got over tired and so fussy the evening was horrible for all.

I just want an idea if I am giving her mixed messages - should I stick to trying to settle her in my arms sitting down, or keep trying with lying on the bed, or should I just lay her in her cot and stay with her trying to soothe her over the bars while she cries?

You have my sympathies! It's one of those "rod for your own back" situations isn't it? DSs were great, they just went to sleep when they were tired. DD won't. I don't want to do it but I find myself feeding her to sleep becaus it works. I want her to be able to send herself to sleep but this works. I can see me headed in the direction of a baby who won't go to sleep unless fed or some other sort of outside help.

Regular bedtime routines can help. Bath, story, feed, bed.
Don't keep her up later as I think they get over tired. Pick a bedtime and stick to it.
In or house, once they're in bed, they don't come downstairs again. Any comforting is done in their room.
No interaction from you - don't engage them in "conversation" ( IYSWIM). Comfort her, calm her and put her back to bed.
If you think he confuses your bed with playtime, do all the bedtime routine/calming etc in her room. And don't play there.

wrt controlled crying, I don't like it either (but I suspect I wouldn't rule it out if I were at my wits end). Is the "pick up put down" thing the same? I've heard it mentioned a lot on mumsne,

I have a tricky daughter too, bumble. I have always fed her to sleep lying on our bed then transfered her to her cot. It can be so hard when she doesn't want to sleep/can't sleep/keeps waking up and I too refuse to do any form of cc. I have no real answers apart from regular bedtime and up time in the morning (lie ins are fatal so it is 7.00am every morning, even sunday) also regular nap times. Consistent routines help and you may find that once she is more mobile she will tire herself out more. Big sympathy from me and remember the old chant 'it's only a phase'!

Hiya, im having sort of the same problem at the moment but mine started out with exccesive juice drinking. i did try this controlled crying but hated it because c woke upto 10 times a night (and it look like we are back to square one) i dont know if you want to start this but C is 13 months and at the moment the only way i can get him to sleep is by bouncing him in his bouncer and moving him over once hes gone. i am on my 2nd bouncer because he is over 22lb now so it does have some down falls. it does work for c though. if he climbs out i just but him back in.

I don't know the sling you mention, but if you have a ring sling you can undo the ring and just lay her down on the bed. We also used sling as a sleep aid for years, and it worked very well for us. I used to sit on the bed with my back against a wall, to support the weight - just being in the sling was enough by this stage, I weaned him off being rocked.

I would stick to the one method you feel most comfortable with and go for it. Best of luck (and ignore rod for your own back comments from friends - some babies need more help getting to sleep than others - it does end)

thanks for the replies you guys

yes we do have a good bed-time routine involving bath-time with daddy, get ready for bed, stories, then feed

SD, we did try pickup/putdown but it didnt suit dd's temperament - it made her hysterical when she was put down, and if she went to sleep while being picked up then it defeated the object.

Feeding to sleep is just so natural isnt it? I wish dd would go back to that - she ended up after a half hour of fussing and crying this morning in and out of my arms, feeding because exhausted, but there must be a way of doing it without the crying?

F&Z, the hug-a-bub isnt a ring sling, its just a piece of material wrapped around, and dd likes to be upright in it rather than in bf type position.

I think you are right, if I am sticking to calming her in my arms then I cant let her play on the bed but its hard now that she is so strong and can wriggle so much. I think I am going to end up with her in the cot, which feels wrong as it makes her more upset.

this is deja vu for me as did this with my dd until she was 18 months old! if you think your dd is to heavy to rock now then you need to nip it in the bud quick or else it takes over your life and after about 9/10 months it got worse for us and nothing worked - cont crying didnt and even though a bedtime routine it just wouldnt happen for us! so i hear you say?!
anyway - no matter what you do there will be tears - hers and/or yours! but we used to put her in cot then sit at side of cot with my hand on her just patting and shushing at same time- sounds abit bizzare and she did cry and cry but i think its different if crying when your with them than just leaving them to cry - it honestly worked though - after 2/3 nights she would just go off on her own with a little pat and shush - still has a calming effect on her! the patting should be done so its similar to your heartbeat by the way and the shushing should be at the same volume or a bit higher than any crying she is doing - it apparently works as the baby cant concentrate on more than two things at once so stops the one they control ie: the crying! sorry its long - good luck!

Hi there, just to let you know my dd was same, I remember thinking how are we ever going to change this???? Whilst fending off rod for own back comments.
I'm not much use because I can't remember how we got through it (dd 4half now) just that we did!!!
We never used c crying or anything sim. I think maybe I used to cradle her on my lap and bounce her on my knees, and that worked.
Admittedly dd often listens to story cds now to help her drift off, but anyways the point is it will pass -and like us you may not even notice that its happened.

Message withdrawn

Bumbleweed - Try the baby whisperer's website. She has various techniques that need to be adapt with age and sitution. I don't think you meant to be doing pick up, put down at her age.

Has a look at the PROPS section too.

I found her website really useful.

Good luck

www.babywhisperer.com/smf/

okay so its not just me ended up in this situation - there's reassurance in that so thank you for that too

I will look at the link thanks CADS, although I have the baby-whisperer book and have to say I think its rubbish as it just makes you feel inadequate when none of the so called techniques blooming work - but thanks I am not ruling anything out

I guess I knew there would be no answers, I just feel so frustrated, and as I was dealing with a 2.5 hour settling session last night, I imagined myself typing this thread and getting some magic sparkle of insight back and it made me feel there was hope!

JungleCat thanks for your lovely and thoughtful post.

I am going to take your advice regarding consistency now I know that it can get you through the worst phases.

Cosleeping isnt really for us now, although I have thought about it alot, because we are now 9 months down the line and once alseep she is actually fine in her cot, and doesnt like being crowded/snuggling up. I would defo do it for next baby tho.

Do you mind me asking how long it takes for your dd to settle? Also when she stands up or tries to crawl off during settling period do you just lay her back down again or how do you handle?

Poor bumbleweed, I feel for you. I agree that some babies need more help to get to sleep.

For the longest time, the only surefire ways to get dd to settle as to nurse her down (stopped bf-ing at 17 months) and if she refused that, to put her in the buggy and wheel her down to sleep, round and round the kitchen. The wheeling may take an hour or more, but could be quicker. At least, dd was (generally) not crying and quiet in the buggy whilst she was settling. The transfer from buggy to cot (or bed in your case) is tricky because she would wake up. So we would wheel her down in the carseat, which slotted into the travel system buggy, and once she was soundly asleep (wait at least 30 mins after she had gone down), lift the carseat out and put next to the cot. Leave her there until she next wakes, then feed her back down before she wakes up completely, then fingers and toes crossed, slowly, using as few muscles and movements as possible, transfer to cot/bed.

We used the carseat for as long as we could. You should see dd, her legs were sticking out of there like you would not believe it!

Dd is 2.10, and just last month, we finally managed to give up the wheeling, and she now falls asleep in bed between dh and myself without any rocking, shuushing or anything. But could take an hour or more!!!! Progress anyway.

hey blueshoes well done for your dd now getting herself to sleep - that must be a real relief for you and saves you tons of time.

ah the old 'pushchair parenting' technique - i do sometimes send dh out with the buggy if it gets too late and no sign of sleep. there aint enough room in our house to push her inside, so thats not an option, but also something i would have done rather than go out in the pissing rain

yikes 2.10 is a long time to wait - I guess I just have one of those babies, eh? cheers for your support tho.

bumble

I love when people ask 'does your baby sleep through?'
uh, no.
Then they get that shocked look on their face 'why not?'
Uh, I don't know. Why don't you ask him?
Like it;s something that I'm doing wrong.
Same babies are great sleepers, some not so much.
Will you still be rocking her to sleep when she's 18? unlikely. Or by then you'd need a HUGE sling!
Eventually the bedtime time will work itself out.
At least that's what I keep telling my self!

I know you are not into the cc method, but have you tried leaving her at all? Like lisalisa said sometimes it actually works without it being long and drawn out screaming for hours on end. I only say this as dd never went to sleep being rocked, she would only sleep once she was put down. I am not in any way critising, but I think it might be worth trying.

I haven't read all the messages, but anyway...
My dp's family taught me a trick where they laid the boys on a blanket gathered up each end so he laid in it hammock style and one either side swung him side to side. It sounds like it would work for your little one very well. Once baby is asleep you can just lay the blanket down. Prob easier than pounding the street with a buggy! It's isn't so back wrenching netiher, his gran is in her 70s and could do it!

crunchie, thanks for your input, but yes I know exactly what happens when she is crying and I have to go out of the room to the toilet - she becomes very distressed and cries alot and goes bright red and seems to find it hard to breathe.

Some people may just say - well no harm will come, she is just letting off steam and will settle eventually. However, I am not prepared to wait to find out what would happen if I left her say 3 or 5 or 10 minutes because my fundamental belief is that she would be frightened and need her mummy and feel abandoned and I dont believe in leaving babies to cry.

I mean crying not fussing / moaning.

I know you were trying to help, but my MIL comes out with "Have you tried just lying her down" and it drives me mad - like I havent just spent 9 long months trying to get this baby to sleep.

kelly I had never even thought of that one or heard of the 'hammock' approach - I will suggest to dh - I guess its defo a 2 person job tho - if it works it would be great, I wonder what dd would make of it

There is also a Graco swing thingy you can get that may do the job too.

I am sorry to suggest something you mum has said non-stop. It was simply my experience, hence my post.

oops sorry didnt mean to sound so snappy crunchie - anything resembling my MIL must hit a raw nerve or something - all suggestions need to be considered when I feel so helpless anyway

That's OK if it had been my MIL I woudl have said the same (bloody woman!)

good luck with it bw! It worked on the boys, I have everythign crossed for you.

Bumble, I have a dd who is now nearly 14 months and has always been a nightmare sleeper. It's funny how I've forgotten the details already, but there was a lot of crying and often screaming at bedtimes and naptimes until just a few months ago and she always needed to be rocked to sleep (and for a long while all naps were in the sling as I walked along at breakneck speed to keep up the "bounce"!).

We probably carried on with the rocking until about 11 months, but then she's a light baby.
We also got an Amby Hammock when she was about 3 months old and that's fantastic for babies like this because you can basically bounce them up and down in it (quite vigorously if needs be!) until they sleep. There was a lot of putting her in and taking her out of the hammock and rocking and singing.

She outgrew the hammock about 6 weeks ago and we are now using the cot. She goes in straight after her breastfeed, stands up and throws herself back down about 30 times, manically, before finally unwinding enough to go to sleep. Sometimes she chatters (manically) or frantically rubs her head or bites/picks at her cuddly toy. When she's calm enough to lie on her tummy for more than 30 seconds, I put my hands on her back and press down gently and/or rock her from side to side. It can take upwards of 30 minutes, but she doesn't cry anymore and seems to be much more accepting of sleep.

My DH and I were just asking ourselves what we'd do differently if we had the time again, and we really don't know. When you have a baby like this, it's all you can do to cope with each day as it comes and you just get them to sleep in any way that seems to work. The Amby was a complete life saver for us, though to be honest I'd hope not to need it for another baby!

Leaving dd to cry always seemed like the wrong thing to me. She would just get increasingly hysterical and I knew from the really dark early months that she was easily capable of screaming convulsively at ear-splitting volume for hours on end. So it certainly wasn't going to be a case of just putting her down and leaving her to settle down after a bit of whingeing.

With hindsight I'm glad that we didn't leave her to cry. Watching her current manic behaviour at bedtimes makes me think that she finds it very difficult to unwind and that this was always the case. I guess she might have burnt herself out after hours upon hours of screaming but I will never know.

I feel exactly the same as you about the Baby Whisperer and others. As I've said on mumsnet before, I think the feelings of failure and inadequacy are often worse than the problem and the sleep deprivation!

I must say that you sound very composed and philosophical about it all. I didn't cope at all.

I know it's a very long post, but I figure that you need to hear some supportive stories.

Good luck.