Very high-need baby how to help get to sleep once too heavy to rock (sorry long and complicated)?

[bumbleweed]

I have a very high-need dd who is now 9 months and has always struggled to get herself off to sleep. We have always used a combination of rocking, singing, breast-feeding her to sleep with lesser and greater degrees of success over the last 9 months.

About a month ago she stopped going to sleep on a feed, and we started using the sling to rock her to sleep. But she's just to heavy now and it pulls on my shoulders, and its no good on an evening when I am tired or really at any time anymore. We also have a hug-a-bub sling which doesnt pull on shoulders but I cant get her out of it without shaking her around and waking her up.

I dont believe in controlled crying or any form of crying which involves leaving dd.

I think she wants to be able to go to sleep other ways but cant - she fights in my arms when I try to rock her on my shoulder, bites my arms and neck, nips me, struggles to be on the floor or bed, but then wants to be up again, refused to feed then asks to feed, but bites my nipple. Tries to crawl off the edge of the bed, alternately crying and smiling.

I decided I would try to teach her to go to sleep in my arms but with me sitting down so less tiring for me, but a transition. She just does all of the above fussing, and it takes hours and hours for her to tire herself to the degree that she asks to feed.

We tried lying her down on our bed, and cuddling up next to her and soothing her to sleep lying down, so at least she was crying but with one of us cuddling her. But she has never been able to just lie down and go to sleep and has never slept in our bed, so I think she confuses it with play time which we often do on the big bed.

I am so confused and at wits end. I even tried just keeping her up later on an evening until she was tired enough to just feed to sleep (previous post about a month ago) but she just got over tired and so fussy the evening was horrible for all.

I just want an idea if I am giving her mixed messages - should I stick to trying to settle her in my arms sitting down, or keep trying with lying on the bed, or should I just lay her in her cot and stay with her trying to soothe her over the bars while she cries?

"Am sure all RL people are lying about their perfectly settling/sleeping infsnts and weep into their nappy bags as soon as the door is closed." Well said Psycho.

I particularly like "weep into their nappy bags"

Sadly, I think that many RL and MN mums are NOT lying about their easily-settled, sleep-all-night babies. Some babies seem to be a whole lot better at sleeping than others. And some babies seem to "get it" after very mimimal sleep-training (i.e. just leave them to whinge/fuss for 10 mins and they nod off). Those of us with babies who are not like this are faced with a big dilemma - do we do the full blown hours-on-end-screaming sleep training or not?

As I said, looking back I'm glad we didn't but I'm not as convinced on this topic as other posters seem to be! For one thing, I reckon my dd suffers from severe sleep deprivation and that this affects her behaviour during the day. So maybe it would have been kinder to do some kind of sleep training, who knows.

One thing that I think is missing in this debate is reliable information about what happens in other societies when it comes to babies and sleeping (or not sleeping). GF/Baby Whisperer et al are both very recent and obviously very UK/US. What do Chinese mums do? What do mums in New Guinea and Brazil, or Cyprus do? What did we do in the UK 500 years ago? There's a really good book to be written here I'm sure (PHD thesis anyone?)

On a less theoretical note, bumble I'm glad last night was a bit better for you. Keep posting and tell us how tonight went! My DH is currently trying to settle DD and I reckon it'll take over an hour tonight....

Hi, I haven't read this whole thread, so apologies if I repeat stuff that's already been said...

Just wanted to say hello as your difficulties struck a chord with me - we've had ongoing sleep problems with my ds (now 3). We're very in to the whole 'attachment parenting' thing and have been co-sleeping and I've always rocked/breastfed/driven/pushchaired him to sleep as I don't believe in the controlled crying thing. Over the last three years I feel I've spent half my time feeling we've done the right thing and half the time feeling we've done the wrong thing. However, if I could start with him again I still wouldn't do controlled crying. What I would do though, is turn to a book by Elizabeth Pantley called 'The No Cry Sleep Solution' - and do the stuff she suggests. We've done some of her suggestions which made things a lot better, yet have let other sleep problems continue on without addressing them. I ALWAYS envy all my friends who have easy-sleep babies who nod off in five mins and stay asleep all night. But I accept that a combination of my child's personality and my parenting methods has equalled a less than ideal sleep situation. However, I do feel my ds has hugely benefited from me meeting his needs and not letting him cry it out - for some babies the crying approach works, but for high need ones like mine I can see it would make him ultra insecure and clingy and that the outcome wouldn't be worth it. Anyway, good luck.

Agree with you on that HCPJungle Cat - we really feel we lack that grandparent/extended family support. I think that if my ds had got used to a greater variety of people getting him to bed, that bedtime wouldn't have become such a stressful issue.
Bumble - reading back through the thread it seems to me like the most annoying thing is the LENGTH OF TIME taken to get yr dd to sleep. I too have had this problem and was often very angry and depressed after spending 1/2hrs trying to get an unwilling baby/toddler to sleep. Eventually worked out that it was always due to him being either not tired enough or really overtired (usually the former). Where I found Pantley's book helpful was her charts on how many hours they should sleep at what age - we realised where we'd been going wrong. I also managed to find somewhere on web a chart of how long babies can stay awake. We then had a hard patch trying to get him into the right routine for his age (e.g to set his body clock we'd get him to nap at right time in pushchair or car seat, once we'd 'set his body clock' and his body knew when to expect sleep, we'd revert to putting him for naps in his cot or our bed). The annoying thing is when you've just got it sorted and it changes cause they've grown and suddenly need slightly less sleep. It sounds to me like your ds just isn't ready for sleep at her current bed time.

Anyway, back to the interesting discussion on child rearing here and abroad... has anyone else read Baby Wisdom? Is a great book on parenting techniques from a variety of cultures around the world. Makes very interesting reading.

Just searched Amazon for Baby Wisdom but it didn't immediately come up. Any chance you could post a link? It sounds very interesting (and I thought I'd read every book ever written on the topic!)

Baby Wisdom, by Deborah Jackson, is very good, but the absolute blinder is Our Babies Ourselves , which I think you would get a lot from, bumbleweed, and which fulfils the brief you mention, Rickshaw.

I would say that billions of mothers/parents worldwide have the baby in bed with them until the baby is ready to move out to its own bed. It is only the west and particularly UK/US who get so uptight about getting babies to sleep through. Babies are actually designed not to sleep through the night as a survival mechanism. I don't think my dd can use that as an excuse at 14months though.

Looks like Baby Wisdom has been reprinted under a slightly different title.

Just ordered both of them through Amazon...

Cannot recommend that Our Babies book highly enough - it transformed my early days with ds from following my instincts but fretting terribly that I was doing it 'wrong', to a lovely feeling of calm and peace that this was how it was meant to be

Not sure if that is the Baby Wisdom book printed with a different title (the synopsis makes it sound quite different from the book I have).
Am supposed to be working at the mo, so will try and look for Baby Wisdom later and come back...

Oh, forgot to say that the Our Babies book looks amazing. Will definitely give that one a read soon. Top recommendation!

Just found Baby Wisdom on amazon but it is unavailable - here's the link anyway, so folk can have a look at the book and perhaps google it to find elsewhere. Am not very good at putting in links so hope it works!

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0340793503/026-3421000-5370013?v=glance&n=266239

Oh, I'll try again Baby Wisdom

Rickshaw you sound like a very wise person. I am also interested in the 'cultural' aspect of baby rearing / parenting.

I will also try to get those 2 books from the library.

Franny you know all the fab books. I love reading about attachment-style parenting practices and child development, and I have just finished reading 2 books I think were mentioned on another thread (on which I lurked) - 'What Mothers Do' and 'How to Talk so Kids Will Listen'.

Manoo, sounds like you have been through a very similar situation. I cant get my head round the whole nap thing. Dd has never has as much sleep as recommended in the books and yes I think she does get overtired and it makes her more fussy. I wonder if this will affect her behaviour as she develops.

She used to bf to sleep for naps if we didnt go out in the pushchair or car. Now its more difficult if we stay in. I feel the only way I could establish regular nap times would be if I used the pushchair at the same time every day for a week or something. But then I wouldnt get to do the stuff I had planned and I would feel isolated and frustrated - ie not a happy mummy. It may be that I need to put the naps first as a priority and just cancel stuff, and just be more mature about it.

What do people do who are trying to parent in this way with a baby, but who also have other kids to look after and give their attention to? Does the baby end up getting left to cry? Do the other kids get less attention?

Must get 'Our babies ourselves' book! Looks fab.

bumbleweed, i bought 2 books at the same time, Deborah Jackson's '3 in a bed' and another called 'The no cry sleep solution'.
I read 3 in a bed first and it totally turned me into a confident and happy co-sleeper.
(DP sleeps in the spare room anyway as he snores ALOT .
It is a very interesting read and tells alot about other cultures and not only regarding sleep. Have to say it's one of my all time favourite books on childcare.

DD2 is now 15 months old and just last night i tryed her in her own little bed next to her sister. Thought i best try as i'm having another in a few weeks. I don't think she's ready though so we gave up at 2 a.m and retired to my Knigsize

Bit of a poitless ramble there but read this thread with interest.
Good luck for tonight +

Bumbleweed, I made myself miserable trying to be flexible and relaxed about ds's sleep at first. It didn't work, for either of us - he is not that sort of child, and I am not that sort of mother. Things started to improve for us when I just mentally gave in (and put my foot down with friends) and said "No, from x to y, each day, ds will be at home sleeping."

My dd2 (15 months) naps in the mrning after i've dropped dd1 off at School. She's usually been up since 6 ish and is shattered by then. She'll nap for anything from half an hour to 2 hours.
That's the only nap she has but i'll admit that i cuddle her to sleep still. I'll just have to adjust to life with the new baby too!

I think you may be giving her mixed messages. the most important thing at this age is a secure bedtime/nighttime routine so they start to recognise the signals for sleepytime. She also has to elarn how to fall asleep!
Have you ever had one of those nigths when you are knackered but can't get to sleep? you toss and turn, you are desperate to fall asleep but you can't? fallign asleep is a skill and at 9 months your daughter is learning so many new things (crawling, sorting bricks etc) that she ahs alot to process and needs her sleep.

What time does she go to bed now? at 9 months she'll need about 14-15 hrs sleep in total. so 12 hrs at night and 2-3 hrs naps.

Here's what I'd do:
1, set a regular bedtime and bedtime routine
2, see if she has a favourite soft toy or blanket that makes her feel secure
3, get a sleeping bag (restricts their ability to crawl around!)
4, accept that she may cry because she is tired and its your job to help her learn how to fall asleep easily
5, get the baby whisperer - the best approach for non controlled crying but getting baby asleep on their own
6 give it time! it may take up to 3 weeks for things to start changing and she will test you in that time. But stick with it!
7, start giving her regular naptimes - if she doens't sleep at first then dim the lights and do quiet reading together then slowly get her accustomed to sleeping in the daytime.

Good luck.