Very high-need baby how to help get to sleep once too heavy to rock (sorry long and complicated)?

[bumbleweed]

I have a very high-need dd who is now 9 months and has always struggled to get herself off to sleep. We have always used a combination of rocking, singing, breast-feeding her to sleep with lesser and greater degrees of success over the last 9 months.

About a month ago she stopped going to sleep on a feed, and we started using the sling to rock her to sleep. But she's just to heavy now and it pulls on my shoulders, and its no good on an evening when I am tired or really at any time anymore. We also have a hug-a-bub sling which doesnt pull on shoulders but I cant get her out of it without shaking her around and waking her up.

I dont believe in controlled crying or any form of crying which involves leaving dd.

I think she wants to be able to go to sleep other ways but cant - she fights in my arms when I try to rock her on my shoulder, bites my arms and neck, nips me, struggles to be on the floor or bed, but then wants to be up again, refused to feed then asks to feed, but bites my nipple. Tries to crawl off the edge of the bed, alternately crying and smiling.

I decided I would try to teach her to go to sleep in my arms but with me sitting down so less tiring for me, but a transition. She just does all of the above fussing, and it takes hours and hours for her to tire herself to the degree that she asks to feed.

We tried lying her down on our bed, and cuddling up next to her and soothing her to sleep lying down, so at least she was crying but with one of us cuddling her. But she has never been able to just lie down and go to sleep and has never slept in our bed, so I think she confuses it with play time which we often do on the big bed.

I am so confused and at wits end. I even tried just keeping her up later on an evening until she was tired enough to just feed to sleep (previous post about a month ago) but she just got over tired and so fussy the evening was horrible for all.

I just want an idea if I am giving her mixed messages - should I stick to trying to settle her in my arms sitting down, or keep trying with lying on the bed, or should I just lay her in her cot and stay with her trying to soothe her over the bars while she cries?

(Sparkle -oops - I meant I agreed that Franny's post was unhelpful - not yours!)

I don't think that Franny was rude in her post, just expressing an opposite opinion to Sparklemagic and others. Franny's opinion was also far more in line with what Bumble is comfortable with.

Everyone who is in favour of cc always ignores the research which states quite plainly that it is not good for babies and can be damaging.

Cece - shocked that I am shocked? If I had left my dd at 9months to cry for 10 minutes I would have had an hysterical baby who could have made her self sick and possibly choked to death. A baby crying itself to exhaustion and a baby settling itself to sleep are two completely different things. Out of interest at what age did you start your '10 minute rule'?

I'd like to apologise - I think my posts were too heavy handed and I did not stop to think that they might upset you, sparkle. I tend to get the bit between my teeth and off I go

I do feel strongly about some of the issues we are talking about, and enjoy a robust debate, but I should be more considerate of other people's feelings. I do know how it feels to be upset by an unpleasant post and I hope you can accept my apology, sparkle, and anyone else who felt attacked by what I said. I'm emailing you off the board as well, sparkle, in case you don't come back and read this.

I did feel it was great that you all took the time to post. I am sure bumbleweed will get a lot from the discussion and can take what ideas she feels are appropriate for her dd.

Callisto of course I am not advocating leaving a baby to become hysterical and be sick! but in my experience of 2 children the 10 min rule as a guide worked for my kids. If they became hysterical then of course someone went in to them. However 10 mins of 'crying' while they settle themselves seemed to work for them. TBH I can't rememeber exact ages but when you have more than one child to deal with then of course you can't drop everything to run to a crying baby immediately! (I am not talking about the hysterical red in the face type of crying but just 'normal' baby crying)

Ah, sparklemagic, you don't accept CATs

If anyone sees her, or is in touch with her, could they pass on my apologies please? I wanted to say sorry in person and also to say that I very much hope that she does not stop posting because of my insensitivity.

I agree with all Sparkle have said, 100%

Actually, I think is kinder to let a baby cry for 10min on his/her own for a couple of days than having same baby crying for longer periods month after month because he has not being tought to go to sleep without rocking.

I am not generally a fan of cc but don't see any issue with a baby crying for 10 mins before settling.

If my dd only needed to cry for 10 min before settling, I would go for it. But there are babies (like my dd and bumble's) who truly need help to settle, and who cry on and on and on. You need to have such a baby to understand what it involves. As a baby, my dd did not fall asleep from awake EVER. She never got drowsy when tired, just more and more hyped up - I didn't know what the GFs and Baby Whisperers were going on about.

I have used a form of cc when dd was 20 months old. She was co-sleeping and would wake up in the middle of the night wanting to go downstairs to play. I refused and she would cry and cry. But I see this as limit-setting, rather than cc, because she is old enough to understand when I explain to her she is not allowed to do so because it is nighttime. And I stay with her throughout the duration of the crying.

That is the difference between cc of a young baby and an older baby/toddler. An older baby/toddler has more understanding, of your explanation and how the world works - which lessens the fear factor.

As a mother, you know your baby best. Some babies are really just crying to settle, others are genuinely distressed. Others may just need longer before they are better able to cope with cc.

Well, Cece if I left my dd for 10 mins or even 5 mins to cry she would be completely hysterical. Lucky for you your babies were more independant.

Franny, fwiw I don't think you have been rude, just clear in your opinions. I have read far, far worse (and had worse targetted at me) and I am sure Sparkle robust enough to carry on posting.

'Sparkle is robust'

blyeshoes,
I agree there are different types of crying and a 10 min to settle cry is different to leaving a baby to cry hysterically cry.

Callisto, I guess I was just lucky with my babies then, although I made sure from quite a young age not to feed them to sleep. I always tried to put them down while still a little awake. However, I accept that some babies do not sleep as well as others. I was just offering some advice as to what had worked for me. No one thing suits everyone and people should do as they wish with their own children. This is just what worked for my family. That is all.

"although I made sure from quite a young age not to feed them to sleep." cece, me too And it suited DSs prefectly. What a fab parent I thought I was. Then I had DD. If feeding is what it takes to get her to go to sleep then feed I will, no matter how much I swore I'd never do it! I will try to wean her off it as I know she can go to sleep without being fed because she'll do it if I've fed her and then we lay together ont he bed. She'll coo and then drop off. If, however, I put her in her cot or leave her and she cries, she will scream blue murder.

Sigh.

Perhaps you should all ignore my advice then as it seems I have been very lucky to have two 'good' sleepers!

I'll go away now!

I'm not getting at you BTW. I had 2 good sleepers too and thought just like you did. Then I had BabyDragon, bless her.

No offence taken it just seems I have nothing left to offer!

Bumbleweed

Ds sounds like he was very similar to your dd . I don't know about decribing him as high need exactly but I even had trouble breastfeeding him to sleep - especially if he was very tired.

After the age of 6 months he would bfeed to sleep about 2 times a week and believe me I tried every night to bfeed him to sleep. I really never worried whether he would get into the habit - it just didn't work - nothing worked really.

Even now at 20 months there is a state he gets into where he wants to breastfeed but because it is making him feel sleepy he fights it desperately and he starts pulling,kicking and even crying while on the breast. I try feeding for ages thinking he must settle soon but an hour of on-off breast feeding often leaves me with an exhausted child who can't switch off.

Generally this tends to happen when ds is too tired. Have you tried an earlier bedtime with dd? - you may well have and it may not have worked for you but ds was often ready for bed by 5.30pm before he reached 12 months old. This was because he slept so badly at night - so a kind of vicious circle was set up. It is not so bad if your dd is generally happy and doesn't need much sleep but if you have a grumpy overtired child on your hands who does not sleep or switch off easily it is a nightmare.

I'm afraid I spent a load of very stressful evenings in tears myself so I have no easy answers for you. However around 9 months old I did start getting dh to put ds to bed instead of me doing it every night.

He doesn't do any of the kicking. biting, trying to get down with dh that he does with me- though in the first week or so he did cry quite a bit. The problem is now I have trouble putting him to bed whereas when dh does it he has much less trouble than I do.

We still pace the room with him though until he gets really sleepy - often I he cries quite a bit with me but when he eventually calms down a breastfeed can help at that point. Originally he was on our shoulder and now he wants to be carried lying down (cradle like) - which you can appreciate isn't very easy with a 20 month old

Franny, thanks for what you said, that was very gracious of you.

No problem sparkle, I need a good kick up the arse from time to time

How did tonight go, Bumble? I was thinking about you.

oh boy, things have moved on apace since I last visited, it highlights the differences in opinion regarding whether we are kinder to children to teach them to settle themselves or kinder to help settle them while they are still little

On Sunday night, dd took a little feed from me, and then faffed around, and so dh went in and she cried to sleep in his arms and then half-woke up half and hour later, at which point I was able to feed her properly to sleep.

Last night, was really good - she took a little feed, then we did stories on the bed, then she started faffing so I popped her in the cot for another story, then she crawled all round the cot standing up and throwing teddies around for 20 mins while I read my book and ignored her.

When she cried properly I picked her up and fed her .... and she went to sleep and stayed that way for another 4 hours. Woo hoo! I know that may just be a one off and we prob havent cracked it, but at least I have an idea of what I really want from bed-time.

Franny

Thanks for the Dr Sears link, we actually have his 'fussy baby book' but it was really good to read more about his sleep ideas, and reassured us about our no-cry approach.

Legacy and Sparkle

I do appreciate your very sensible advice regarding consistency and that its okay for her to learn that she needs to sleep in her cot, and me staying with her is a half-way house. I still feel I need to do it more gradually than is being suggested, as I know I wont be able to let her cry in cot and just sit there. She does genuinely find it difficult to switch off, she is kind of 'wired' and I would feel like I am punishing her for what is a genuine difficulty she has.

Blueshoes and Corriedale, thanks for your support and for being tuned in to my dilemna.

I wish I could do consistent nap-times like has been suggested, but dd is so unpredicatable in when she will sleep even when tired, that it would only be achievable if we never went anywhere and we did the cot thing at each nap time.

Well I would have gone completely bonkers by now if I hadnt gone out, as I have skated very close to pnd for the whole of the last 9 months and I figure real life is going out and babies have to be part of real life and not some bizarro GF world.

Just letting off a little more steam as dd has just taken an hour to get off for morning nap after she started fussing and rubbing eyes and doing her lovely groaning thing.

If I had had the faintest idea that looking after a baby would be this tiring, frustrating, would make me feel I have no life and that I hardly recognise myself from the person I once was, I really dont think I would have started this whole strange journey.

thanks to rickshaw and lazycow and everyone else too - sorry for ranty bit at end of last post

glad things are getting there a bit bumble. I'm sure most people on here can relate to your last 'ranty' bit actually...it is just not possible to realise what a complete shift there will be in your life; however s you know already I'm sure, it DOES get better; easier, more fun in lots of ways (and more challenging in others!) dunno if this helps but lots of people I've spoken to with girls say that they were harder as babies but easier as toddlers. !.

PsychoCat, thank you, nice of you to say such reassuring words. Its so hard isnt it, I seem to be struggling so much more than my RL contemporaries, or so it seems.

When did you turn the corner with your dd?

Wow you must have been really excited and proud when she took her first step.