Very high-need baby how to help get to sleep once too heavy to rock (sorry long and complicated)?

[bumbleweed]

I have a very high-need dd who is now 9 months and has always struggled to get herself off to sleep. We have always used a combination of rocking, singing, breast-feeding her to sleep with lesser and greater degrees of success over the last 9 months.

About a month ago she stopped going to sleep on a feed, and we started using the sling to rock her to sleep. But she's just to heavy now and it pulls on my shoulders, and its no good on an evening when I am tired or really at any time anymore. We also have a hug-a-bub sling which doesnt pull on shoulders but I cant get her out of it without shaking her around and waking her up.

I dont believe in controlled crying or any form of crying which involves leaving dd.

I think she wants to be able to go to sleep other ways but cant - she fights in my arms when I try to rock her on my shoulder, bites my arms and neck, nips me, struggles to be on the floor or bed, but then wants to be up again, refused to feed then asks to feed, but bites my nipple. Tries to crawl off the edge of the bed, alternately crying and smiling.

I decided I would try to teach her to go to sleep in my arms but with me sitting down so less tiring for me, but a transition. She just does all of the above fussing, and it takes hours and hours for her to tire herself to the degree that she asks to feed.

We tried lying her down on our bed, and cuddling up next to her and soothing her to sleep lying down, so at least she was crying but with one of us cuddling her. But she has never been able to just lie down and go to sleep and has never slept in our bed, so I think she confuses it with play time which we often do on the big bed.

I am so confused and at wits end. I even tried just keeping her up later on an evening until she was tired enough to just feed to sleep (previous post about a month ago) but she just got over tired and so fussy the evening was horrible for all.

I just want an idea if I am giving her mixed messages - should I stick to trying to settle her in my arms sitting down, or keep trying with lying on the bed, or should I just lay her in her cot and stay with her trying to soothe her over the bars while she cries?

hear hear, rickshaw and psychocat.

Another anti-whisperer here.

Bumble - You probably don't want to listen to me as I am a noted GF devotee, but I did go through a (IMO) bad patch when dd was 1.2 and a combination of things - bad (again IMO) habits of patting to sleep at nursery, holiday, illness - meant she would not go to sleep unless in our arms. We used my birthing ball (you can alos get them as gym balls) to sit on and bounce with her in our arms, lying down, and sometimes feeding - we were up to about 500 bounces when I cracked and did 3 nights of cc which worke (but I'm not saying it would for you, or that you should feel you have to try cc or that I am advocating it for you . But I do think the birthing ball was good - dd got movement, an I got to lie her i my lap and not have pressure on my back, and I got very toned thighs.

Hey Bumble
We never believed in CC, and thought it was extremely cruel to let a baby cry, but in the end we had absolutely no choice! Previously we had tried everything and nothing worked. We feel really bad for giving in, but I hate to say it - it actually worked, and now DS is now sleeping better and getting a better nights sleep without the stress he was suffering before we did CC.
If needs must - it may be a last resort but it did work for us.

bumbleweed I really like the 'No cry sleep solution' books by Elizabeth Pantley, a 'third way' (if you like ) between cry-it-out and 'do whatever the baby wants'. My ds2 had severe reflux so we had over a year of real sleep problems. There are some good suggestions in the books, and rather than suggesting one approach should fit all babies, the author just gives you ideas and lets you decide which ones to use.

Some more ideas are on this dr sears page . You probably know lots of them, but if you're anything like me you probably have your standard ones you use, and it's quite good to have other techniques if the standard ones stop working.

Btw, I found the Baby Whisperer was not v helpful on the subject of colic or reflux, because she seems to suggest that it's more the carers' problem than something intrinsic to the baby, and I disagree with this. I was a Baby Whisperer devotee with ds1 and I now look back with shame on the nights and nights spent by the side of his cot because I was so determined not to let him get used to sleeping in our bed. I think ds1 had undiagnosed reflux (as well as colic due to a cow's milk intolerance) and that was one of the reasons he didn't sleep well when we put him into the cot. But I now wonder why I felt so bad about having him in our bed, when he obviously slept so much better there. With ds2 everything changed and now we have a bigger bed and both are welcome to come into our bed if they like.

sorry have just noticed you said that co-sleeping wasn't for you this time, but have you thought about having a small mattress inbetween your bed and the wall, instead of a cot? We did this for ds2 until he was good enough at climbing to get up onto our bed himself. I would lie down with him on his mattress, then move back to our bed once he was asleep.

rickshaw, you just made me feel so much better just about the way dd is and that its not something I have 'done' or 'not done properly' to make her like this.

I'm not composed, I find it very difficult to cope. I am not very patient by nature, and find bed-times bring out all my worst emotions and qualities.

Last night it took 2.5 hours - dd was leaning out of my arms and trying to climb all over, grab the wall-hangings and lamps etc when I tried just cuddling rocking her on the bed. So I put her in her cot and just let her stand up until she tired herself out - periodically I laid her down and said 'its bed time and we go to sleep lying down'.

When she cried too much I picked her up and she asked to bf, which she got in case she went off the sleep.

I ended up feeding her 4 times, she almost went off in the cot about 3 times, then after 2.5 hours she finally fell asleep on bf. So the time was effectively wasted and taught her nothing - not how to sleep lying down at all. Feel gutted.

Bumbleweed, the thread has got a bit confused - tell me again - what are you trying to achieve here? Are you trying to teach her to go to sleep lying down? Without breastfeeding? Without you? In her cot? Or do you not care, as long as she goes to sleep some way other than in the sling? I think you are maybe confused yourself. I really feel for you - sleep can be such a big issue, and comes at a time of day when you have little patience or energy.

sympathies bumble weed

9 mo is a tricky developmental stage - your DD will be aware that she's no longer 'part of you' and I think this can be amplified at bedtime - particularly if she's in a cot and there is a barrier between you.

I too disagree with CC. I BF DS to sleep until he was about 16mo and I was able to introduce a low toddler bed that he could climb in and out of. I stiull sit in his room, ignoring him, until he climbs into bed and goes to sleep.

I have clearly never been at your stage, but if dropping the BFing to sleep is what you want to do, then you have to be tough. Yes, stay in the room. Yes, reach through the bars and touch her, stroke her - she definitely needs reassurnace that you are there.

But no - I think speaking to her at all, any eye contact or picking her up is confusing her. That technique works for some sprogs, but I do think your DD is personally confused.

Sadly, she will cry. of course she doesn't like this new way of going to sleep! She wants to be with you all the time.

If you feel that you can't cope with tears (it will go on for a week), then back off and go for it when you are ready. Like everything with toddler parenting you have to be comitted and consistent.

The method I tried which worked wonders at about 9 months was gradual withdrawal. DD got so attached to me she couldnt fall asleep on her own or get back to sleep on her own if she woke in the night.
I started 1st night by feeding her, sitting with her in a chair holding her with no eye contact, no rocking, etc and put her down when asleep. 2nd night I fed her, kissed her goodnight then put her down awake in the cot and sat in the chair right next to the cot while she cried. And boy did she cry, for hours on end, eventually she dropped off thru sheer tiredness. The next 2 nights the same, sat v close by her bed, she cried for less time each night. The next few nights I did exactly the same routine only I sat further and further away from her cot until eventually I was outside the room.
Now, 5 months later I can just put her down and walk out and she curls up on her own to sleep without a murmer.
Very best of luck to you bumbleweed, my sympathies, it's hard and exhausting but there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

Franny I am confused.

The current set up is that dd's cot is in our room next to big bed. I feed her sitting on side of bed at bed time and during the night. Only reason her cot cant go in her room is because if it does there is no room for a chair in there so would have to bring her back through to feed her, and so fear that bedtime could involve too much to-ing and fro-ing?

Ideally I would like her to be able to sleep lying down in her cot, as would be more straight forward in the long run and conscious that she has to go to nursery/granny in Oct when I go back to work and have no idea what they will do about naps.

Second best would be asleep lying down but with cuddles/proximity on our bed.

I would gladly continue to bf her to sleep every night and a couple of times during the night if I could get some kind of bed-time routine involving stories or gentle playing and culminating in a bf and then sleep.

But recently she asks to feed then comes on and off, or refuses to feed, or rather than listening to stories tries to climb off bed, up walls, bite me, nip me, struggles out of arms, asks to feed again, fusses/cries, feeds for a while and looks about to sleep but fights it again and forces self awake etc etc.

Also could cope with a process that lasted say 30-60 mins, but not 2.5 hours!

Given that being on the bed seemed to be sending mixed messages I tried the cot as per last post, as I do believe she understands it is bed time and thats where I want her ultimately to be.

So in terms of highlander's suggestion of getting her to stop bfing and having to be fairly strict, I worry about that because some days she doesnt feed much during day, barely eats any solids yet (blw) and wants to be up feeding all night so I daresn't deny her a feed in case she needs the milk.

In terms of having to accept some crying - my position is that crying without us right next to her defo out, crying in our arms not nice but tolerable - often happens when dh's turn to settle her to sleep but only crying about 10 mins.

Could prob even cope with some crying with me next to her but not holding (although would make me very because it shouldnt be that way) but not for like 'hours and hours' like some have suggested, as I would just pick her up after way shorter time.

To summarise if there was a way of getting her to sleep which didnt involve any crying or negativity at all I would snap it up. So maybe a different type of sling or the hammock suggestion is the way forward.

Or maybe I need to just do some form of cot-training and then I know that at least I am there for her, and that nursery/granny cant do it to her in October.

Can you make any sense of this or am I just repeating same confusedness.

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to reply, by the way, I really do appreciate hearing from you all.

some of the difficulties I am sure are due to the fact that her being with you and 'on' you etc is actually stimulating her and keeping her awake; babies can get tired and overstimulated just from being 'handled'.

I think from all you've said that you need to put her in the cot and stay with her, doing whatever works, patting or shushing or whatever. The idea would be to decrease the amount of contact as she gets used to being in her cot. You don't look her in the eye at all while she's down in her cot as this is 'rewarding' contact for her - easier for her to know that mum is there for her but that's IT.

I honestly feel, and say this in the most kindly meant manner, that you may need to really, honestly re-examine your feelings on accepting her crying. I for one believe that it is only being kind to YOU to avoid crying altogether...it is horrible, heartbreaking to hear it but it does not mean the same to your baby as it does to you. With things like sleeping it can be about many other feelings for the baby - anger, shock that this boring routine is being foisted on them, simple instinct that to cry is the way to get cuddles; she does not feel heartbreak like you do hearing it.

To be kindest to HER she needs her parents to show her what bedtime is and how it is done, she doesn't know that she can fall asleep on her own so you have to teach her, but she will complain in the only way she can - crying. It will not harm her in the long term if she cries a bit with you comfortingly there in the room but I really believe that she could be much more affected in the future if she does not sleep well - children of course need sleep to grow physically and thrive to their full potential mentally! It is kinder to her to be consistent than it is to avoid some crying. it need not even be long in the great scheme of things - and the last thing I wanted to say is that babies can SMELL it when you are feeling unsure, so whatever you do, do it wholeheartedly and determinedly.

some of the difficulties I am sure are due to the fact that her being with you and 'on' you etc is actually stimulating her and keeping her awake; babies can get tired and overstimulated just from being 'handled'.

I think from all you've said that you need to put her in the cot and stay with her, doing whatever works, patting or shushing or whatever. The idea would be to decrease the amount of contact as she gets used to being in her cot. You don't look her in the eye at all while she's down in her cot as this is 'rewarding' contact for her - easier for her to know that mum is there for her but that's IT.

I honestly feel, and say this in the most kindly meant manner, that you may need to really, honestly re-examine your feelings on accepting her crying. I for one believe that it is only being kind to YOU to avoid crying altogether...it is horrible, heartbreaking to hear it but it does not mean the same to your baby as it does to you. With things like sleeping it can be about many other feelings for the baby - anger, shock that this boring routine is being foisted on them, simple instinct that to cry is the way to get cuddles; she does not feel heartbreak like you do hearing it.

To be kindest to HER she needs her parents to show her what bedtime is and how it is done, she doesn't know that she can fall asleep on her own so you have to teach her, but she will complain in the only way she can - crying. It will not harm her in the long term if she cries a bit with you comfortingly there in the room but I really believe that she could be much more affected in the future if she does not sleep well - children of course need sleep to grow physically and thrive to their full potential mentally! It is kinder to her to be consistent than it is to avoid some crying. it need not even be long in the great scheme of things - and the last thing I wanted to say is that babies can SMELL it when you are feeling unsure, so whatever you do, do it wholeheartedly and determinedly.

actually, one other thing, I think you can relax about feeding her in the night - she doesn't physically need this. I know you say sometimes she doesn't have much in the day but that is because her intake is split throughout day and night. She WILL take all she needs in the day once it is not available at night.

well said sparlemagic. I had a 10 min rule with mine, if the crying lasted more than 10 mins then I went in to see what was wrong. It worked well. I found they would cry for maybe 10 mins go quiet, then start again for a few more mins, then go quiet again, then one more cry and then sleep. Each time the crying was shorter. Think this 3 times thing I read in the Baby Whiperer but it is true and worked well.

Bumbleweed - Again, I know it isn't what you want to hear, but I think you really need to re-think your whole approach, agree a plan and then stick to it. I agree wholeheartedly with Sparklemagic, YOU are the parent, and like everything else in life, it is your role to teach your child good habits. Falling asleep by herself is the habit you need to teach.

I only say this beacuse we made exactly the same mistake with DS1. We rocked, fed, bounced, drove him around in the car, sometimes, like you, for hours on end. I still suffer from terrible back problems which started when he was going through this stage (he is now 6!!)

The 'lightbulb' moment for us was when another parent of more children described what they'd read in, I think, Christopher Green's book? It's the analogy of yourself, as an adult, being used to falling asleep with a certain number of conditions being the same every night: a dark, quiet room, and a comfy pillow and covers. Imagine if you were used to falling asleep like this, and then one day someone took the pillow and covers away just as you were dropping off? Of course you'd be angry, and you'd find it difficult to 'put yourself' back to sleep without all the usual 'things' being there.

Now think of what your daughter has 'learnt' are the 'conditions' for going to sleep? In your arms? In your bed?
I'm sorry if it sounds harsh, but I imagine she is confused too. You need to decide what you would like the long term outcome to be (e.g. to put her in her cot, kiss her goodnight, and have her drop off to sleep herself within 10 minutes?)and then just GO FOR IT! Honestly, it is absolutely the kindest thing to do for everyone in your family - you, your DH, and your daughter.

We had such a terrible time with DS1, that in the end we did do controlled crying (or 'teaching him the new routine') and your know what, it worked in two nights, and we wondered why the h*ll we hadn't done it sooner??When DS2 came along we vowed we would not let bedtime dominate our lives so much again, and we just had a routine and stuck religiously to it, and he learnt it quickly and was great at going to bed.

sparklemagic is right - babies can sense your stress and uncertainty. Be strong and confident - letting her fuss a bit in her cot is not being a bad mother. When, later in life, you teach your child to swim, she will cry when she gets water in her eyes the first few times - it's just the uncertainty of something new - but you will continue because it's important to learn to swim. It's just as important to learn to sleep too......

Good luck
Legacy

No I do understand bumbleweed - I understand what you have said, and I understand your ambivalence about what you want and what you feel is right.

"In terms of having to accept some crying - my position is that crying without us right next to her defo out, crying in our arms not nice but tolerable - often happens when dh's turn to settle her to sleep but only crying about 10 mins."

I agree with what you have said here, bumbleweed. There is no need to leave a baby on their own crying, in order for them to get to sleep. There is no need for her to learn to go to sleep by herself at this age - why should she? I disagree with virtually everything you have said, sparklemagic.

"To be kindest to HER she needs her parents to show her what bedtime is and how it is done"

No, she needs her parents to respond sensitively to her needs, as they have been doing

"you can relax about feeding her in the night - she doesn't physically need this"

Have you got proof for this, or just a childcare guru's opinion? How do you know what bumbleweed's dd needs physically?

"the fact that her being with you and 'on' you etc is actually stimulating her and keeping her awake"

This is not a "fact", this is just more Baby Whisperer opinion, isn't it?

Erm, sorry, bumbleweed, us disagreeing about what to do is not helping much, is it?

I am a bit stumped as to what to advise, as I have never been in this exact situation myself. The ring sling could work for you as suggested earlier, or you could perhaps try lying down together, with you patting her, or you could try the methods described in the No Cry Sleep Solution book (very very gentle child-centred sleep training). We co-slept which certainly simplified matters a lot - he never had to learn to be in his cot, and I never had to get up to feed in the night, just fed him lying down (still half asleep when he was little).

There is absolutely no need to either night wean her, teach her to sleep in her cot, or to teach her to fall alseep by herself, unless you personally want and need her to do any of those things. There is nothing wrong with letting her fall asleep with you there, or feeding her to sleep, or co-sleeping with her, or feeding her in the night. My ds has recently weaned himself from all of the above at the age of 3, with very little upset. He has always been a poor sleeper and never had as much sleep at night as many of his peers, yet he is a tall and healthy child who is obviously happy and intelligent. I don't think getting less sleep than I may have liked him to have in an ideal world has damaged him in any way.

You might also like to do some reading on the Dr Sears site (if you must recommend gurus, people, at least choose one whose basic philosophy is in line with the poster's own outlook on life). this page is very helpful, I think.

I wish I could be more helpful but at least you can come here for sympathy - it is lovely to see how mnay people have posted here to try and help (even if I don't agree with what they say )

Cece - would you really recommend leaving a 9 month old to cry for 10 minutes before going to see it? I am quite shocked by that.

This paper explains why controlled crying should not be used on children under 3.

I don't suppose Bumbleweed was really looking for an argument about the merits or otherwise for controlled crying - we all know the differing opinions on that around here . Personally, I think the description 'controlled crying' is unhelpful and emotive. And actually we did the 1 minute, 2 minutes, 3 minutes thing. But there are lots of variations, and if BW doesn't want to/ emotionally can't handle the crying then she needs to decide on a different approach, which may involve staying in the room etc, but personally I think she needs to start helping her daughter feel safe and secure in her cot as a place to sleep.

I think Highlander is right in that 9 months is a bugger of a time for babies. There are loads of threads in archive along the lines of "my baby is 9 months and has started to be a nightmare to get to sleep". DS was the same - it was as if he couldn't bear to go to sleep in case he would miss something. He had never been a good sleeper, but this was a nightmare time. When he was 10 months I night-weaned him - or rather, DH did, using cuddles and rocking (I took over after 3 nights, and eventually moved onto patting and shushing) - and when he was 11 months he started reliably sleeping through until 5.30/6.30am. We have had a bedtime routine - tea, nappy-off time, bath, massage, story, feed & lullabies, bed - since he was about 6/7 months old. We stick to it rigidly. But DS always feeds to sleep at night (a small price to pay for a peaceful evening/night, I think) and he only naps to motion - car, pushchair or being rocked in the carseat. The parenting gurus would mutter darkly about rods adn backs, but I don't find it a problem.

I think you know your own limitations/boundaries as a parent and there is no point in starting something you won't have the belief in to finish. There was no point me thinking I could leave DS to cry for even 1 min on his own. So we had to find a middle-ground adn accept that our way would take a month or more to work, but that at least we could stick to it. There are some good ideas in the stuff Franny recommends - definitely worth a look.

Yes I think 10 mins would be fine

Actually I am quite shocked that you are so shocked by that! Somethimes they need that time in order to settle themselves down!

bumble, just to add to the confusing array of voices, I have to agree with Franny.

There is no time limit on when your dd needs to fall asleep on her own in the cot. Babies need sleep but they also need their parents to be responsive to their distress/needs. My non-sleeper was fine during the day - even if her parents were knackered!

10X3 minutes of crying is nothing compared to the hours and hours of hysterical screaming it would have taken my dd to exhaust herself to sleep. How could a parent not respond to that? All babies are different. If putting your dd in a hammock or blanket swing or any other quick way that works, then feel free to go for it.

2.5 hours of faffing around would also drive me round the bend! But it could be that in a few days or weeks' time (teething, milestone??), it will all settle again and dd will allow herself to be nursed to sleep.

obviously decide who you want to listen to; but I just want to say I haven't READ the baby whisperer book. I had a baby who was a very bad sleeper and managed to turn the situation into giving him 11 hours a night by the time he was a few months old.

I believe Franny's Ds did it himself at 3 years old. I dunno whose opinion I would value more, ermmm...

bubmbleweed, my last post not helpful, sorry - I felt upset by franny's post so that was the result!

I find the tone of franny's post so rude and nasty that it is upsetting - she takes apart other people's posts and her manner is sneering - I just gve my opinion (not based on a baby whisperer book but on my own successful experiences with my own ds) and I wish she could do the same.

Actually I believe that by instilling a consistent and reasonable bedtime routine / expectation you ARE responding to your baby's needs.

However you do this is up to you of course.

Don't think I'll be posting again, when you post with some ideas purely from the motive of trying to help someone, it feels really upsetting to be replied to in Franny's rude way. Makes me fed up with MN tbh. I know it's like RL and you meet all sorts, not everyone is as nice as everyone else etc, but sometimes.....I dunno.

Sparkle - I agree - very unhelpful

What I always find interesting in these debates is the "I couldn't leave my baby crying for hours" arguments. Not sure anyone is advocating that here actually. I agree completely with cece - |I believe that babies sometimes need time to settle themselves.

With DS2, DH and I were all prepared to embark on a long period of going in, reassuring, leaving, coming back, for many hours if necessary. And guess what, he fell asleep instead. And when he woke up he was in the same place as where he went to sleep (i.e. in his cot, not another bed, or on Mummy's breast) so he stirred and went back to sleep.
I only share this because I remember DH and I feeling so LIBERATED - our lives had been torn apart - honestly - by endless nights of pacing, rocking etc with DS1, and suddenly it was a relevation to us that babies can , and will, fall asleep themselves if you create the right conditions (warm, clean, fed etc).

Our biggest regret is that no one told us / we didn't learn this sooner.

I know some people don't agree with this approach, but in BW's original post I sense a hint of desperation - looking for helpful suggestions. She sounds like how we felt, night after night, month after month.