Misery loves company: riding the mo fo out into Part II

[ElphabaTheGreen]

In our last exciting instalments:

Needles was at breaking point with a screaming 10 mo DD

Hear had experienced the magic of ONE unbroken night!

Dreaming was continuing to confound all with her ability to manage three children on four or five minutes a night, thanks to DT the Terrible.

Stitch was still having her sleep eaten by...erm...Stitch.

Poppy was pondering how the actual fark she was going to manage a newborn on top of BabyAmex's night time shenanigans.

And the desperate Elphaba had turned night duties entirely over to DH with mastitic results.

Join us with your stories of misery and woe in this, the most sleep-deprived corner of MN!

Dreaming If you did gradual retreat with DT2, would he vomit on the first crying wake-up, then not on the rest if you didn't feed him and sent your DH in instead? (Was that clear as mud?) Is he still vomiting less anyway with the domperidone which might make sleep training more of an option now since before he was diagnosed with the reflux?

WRT the issue of waking the other two out while trying to sort DT2 out, is there any advice on that over on the multiples board? I hear it's one of the only places on MN where you don't get flamed for mentioning CC because they're all so mad desperate for kip, so maybe they have tips?

Pricing up a blackout blind here to see if I can push my current run of luck any further and get DS sleeping a touch later than 4:30am

Hello all! I am still lurking about because I just can't keep away! I would just miss you guys too much :o

Sorry for all new and returned people. Deepest sympathies all round.

dreaming I don't know what to suggest apart from maybe tranquillisers. For you or the DC?

elph we have a good fabric store where I live where you can get pretty cheap blackout curtain material. I then just stick this up with sticky backed Velcro. It does make a difference for us when it comes to morning wake ups when the sun is up so early. Definitely worth a try.

So dd did a few really nice full nights (7-5) in her own bed then last night was up for ages from 10-1 due to massive poo-a-thon and ended up in our bed. Still, she did then sleep till 6 so could have been worse. Compared to 2 months ago when she was still feeding every 2 hours I still feel like something mysterious and magical has occurred. :)

dreaming i was in fact pregnant forever (well almost) i eventually had dd at 40+16. That was a treat. Not.
So dd woke 4 times last night and didn't go to sleep after she woke at 4.45am. Then fell asleep on the sofa at 7am. So she is tired. Its not like she is a natural early waker.
We are attempting night weaning tonight.... Gulp. When she wakes all she wants to do is suckle and twiddle my nips.
On the rare occasions she allows dh to see to her she always without fail sleeps good.
So i fed her before bed. Let her have a twiddle and when she next wakes dh will go in bless him and just cuddle etc till she falls asleep.
Wish me luck.
Anyone else night weaned with success?

Yes feek, elph and hear have night weaned- and are getting sleep!!

I've been inspired and am attempting it... Only fed once last night but spent approx 3-4 hours settling him. Can't leave him, he was so distressed he was wretching within 3 min, so I'm stroking, patting, singing, picking up, putting down- but trying to get the actual falling asleep to happen in the cot. I'm actually not sure I can stand another night though, I'm so tired its Dt1 who's the terror, #2 slept 7-6:30 last night...

Dreaming Can you not let DH go in and do all the settling throughout the night? Like Stitch I think that was the key for us. If what he wants is not within sniffing distance (and not being pushed into his face with cuddles) he may well settle more quickly.

Also, we didn't pick up or cuddle. We laid DS down (frequently) and kept up a fairly steady 'shhh', but he stayed in his cot so BFing didn't just get replaced with something equally unsustainable, and he had to put himself to sleep. Nights one and two were horrible. Screaming for 1 to 2 hours at a time, although less so when DH went into him. Night three I was sick as a dog with the resulting double mastitis so retired to the spare room with earplugs - DS woke up twice and went back to sleep straight away for DH. Night four we got almost 10 unbroken hours and he's been pretty good since then - several 7pm-4:30am nights, with a handful of nights where he's woken up once or twice, but gone back to sleep quickly when DH laid him down.

Re: 'distress'. Yes, DS was distressed, and possibly still is when he wakes up in the night now, but I think the distress is related to not being asleep and really, really wanting to be asleep as quickly as possible (a bit like all of us, really ). If one of you stays in the room with DT (or DD feek) you know it's not distress because they're alone, frightened etc and you can reassure yourself that they're not cold or unwell, and that the distress is rage/frustration at not getting what they ordinarily need to put themselves back to sleep quickly.

Dreaming In your case, I suppose DT may be uncomfortable and a bit distressed because he finds the feeding (temporarily) soothes his tum, which is why he's a bit more awkward than most. But I guess you need to look at it in terms of breaking a cycle - you don't feed umpteen times a night, then he may not wake umpteen times a night because the previous feed is not regurgitating and making him uncomfortable and wakeful again, seeking the short term fix of a feed which then starts bubbling up again a short time later...and on it goes.

I wish I could have ridden the mo fo out Hear-stylie and avoided any of the screaming but I really was at breaking point.

That's my two cents worth for now. I'm sitting here giving DS his marathon morning feed (making up for the loss of his previous 6-10 per night) and pretending that 4:15am is a perfectly civilised time for anyone to get up

Okay so last night we night weaned and it went well in that she didn't ask for a feed and when she first woke at midnight she screamed for about 30sec when dh went in but then he cuddled her back to sleep and she was fine. But.......
The major problem was when she woke at 4am. She didnt ask for boob as such but she just could not get back to sleep. No amount of rocking and patting helped. So she screamed for 45 mins when dh had enough and got up with her for the day at 4.45am!!!!
So i never fed her all night, but god there is no way i am getting up for the day only half bloody 4am

I'm getting up for the day at 4 bloody 30am. Sure as hell beats 6-10 wake-ups per night! If anyone remembers blossombath I think her DC went from multiple wake-ups to early riser. One way or another these babies seem to want to find a way not to sleep. I guess it's just finding the most tolerable option.

We tried putting DS to bed later to see if he'd sleep later - didn't work. His nap isn't until after lunch so that isn't the problem. Next port-of-call is a blackout blind but I'm not holding out a great deal of hope. I'm just having early nights and being thankful for the 6-7 blissfully unbroken hours I've been having most nights for the past week and a half!

Yawn. Sleep training is not going well. Dt1 is a little tike. He does vomit easily, and knows it too. Occasionally he sticks his fingers down his throat and makes himself sick on purpose.

He will not let dh do anything. He screams and screams and screams- he tried it twice at bedtime a few weeks ago and both times he was vomiting after about 5 minutes. He stops immediately now when I take him (he didn't used to, pre-meds) . Plus, dh has no time off til end July and he just can't do his job on no sleep. Plus, screaming just can't happen, it just can't, as then we have multiple dc up, dh is up, its all so much worse . Hence this current approach. Someone tell me if its even worth pursuing:
So, night 1: bedtime took forever, each waking too forever, but it succeeded eventually. I did feed at midnight, but getting to midnight without the usual 3 feeds had been my goal... Last night, I did slightly better at bedtime, but struggled at 9pm. Eventually got him down without milk. 11pm, just couldn't. He'd fall asleep in my arms, instantly (have to pick up for screaming, waking others and dh and getting too upset = vomit reasons) I fed at 12:40, he slept til 2:30, couldn't settle him, Dt2 woken, fed Dt2, he howled for dh, took over again, had to let him sleep on me. Physically on me. Tried so many times- I could get him to sleep in the cot but he woke either immediately or after 10 min. So he slept on/with me, in between attempts to get him into his cot, til 5:30. I brought him into our bed (his cot is wedged by a single bed in the box room atm) fed him, we slept til 6:30, I fed him, we slept til the other two dc woke at 7:30/7:45. Was that a success or a failure?! Help, wise ladies! He's a tough cookie to crack...

feek sounds like a good start to me! Maybe she won't become a 4:30 kind of girl long term... It's often 5:30 for the day for me. Hate it!

Hello folks,still lurking but busy like hell,DS was feverish last few days with temp up to 40 degrees C and clingy like hell.Seems to be fine now(fingers crossed).

Just popped in to ask you if you saw this?

Looks like Asda has a nice cock up or a very nice special offer for Pampers size 4 pull ups.It's even cheaper than their own brand!

groceries.asda.com/asda-estore/search/searchcontainer.jsp?trailSize=1&searchString=pampers+size+4&domainName=Products&headerVersion=v1&_requestid=182681

Dreaming I think in feeding at all at night you're probably giving conflicting messages. Since he can't tell the time, he's not going to know, 'Right, this is a time when mum isn't going to feed me.' He's just going to see you randomly feeding him sometimes, and other times not, so he's just going to keep persisting in the hope it's one if those seemingly random times. The sleeping on you may well be a bit like ardent fans camping out for tickets. If it's going to work, my feeling is you need to cut out all feeds within sleeping hours. The holding/cuddling is also just replacing one unsustainable sleep crutch with another one. Fine for DT the Terrible, but not achieving anything for you, which is the purpose of the exercise.

Could you maybe postpone sleep training until July when your DH is off? Could one of you take the other two to stay elsewhere for a couple of nights while the other works on Mr Trouble Maker? My DS would also scream bloody blue murder for DH if he was picking him up and trying to cuddle him back to sleep. Since he's become the 'lie him back down and brook no argument' one, he's (usually) out like a light again in 5 mins. Conversely, if I were to go in and just lie him back down, I'd get screaming for two hours because I am the cuddle/boob one.

Here's me giving advice like all my troubles are over...it could all go hideously wrong in a week and I'll be back to a whole new world of horror. At least I'll have had a bit of a break though

Just to be contradictory dreaming we night weaned more like you then elph. I had agonising boobs due to bites which made feeding prwtty stressful for everyone involved so tried to only feed if she really wanted it and then cut down rather then going cold turkey. We even had a phase of giving water and bread with hummus when she woke up hungry and wouldn't take milk. I saw this as a period of transition rather then swapping one crutch for another. It seemed a bit unreasonable to me to expect her to go from eating every 2 hours to not eating at all for 10 hours just like that, so was happy to do it gradually. It did take a month or so and some tricky nights before she dropped all food and drink in the night but it worked well for us. Of course I was in a different position as dd was clearly ready (looking back i think maybe feeding being so stressful pushed into it earlier then she might have done otherwise) and I was able to follow her lead, offering encouragement, rather then needing to force the issue too much, which probably makes it a whole other ball game really...maybe not so helpful after all

Where I wholeheartedly agree with elph is in suggesting you maybe take a break until you dh is on leave and can help more. Doing it on your own with 3 DC sounds like it would break the strongest of super beings!

Dd was up a few times last night and came into our room at 3 am. She has as bit of a temp and is feeling rather sorry for herself today though so putting it down to illness. There's always something.

Okay folks.....so.....
Night weaned prev night as i described above. Last night she went down at just gone 7, stirred at 11 but went back to sleep on her own. Me or dh didn't even have to go to her. Then she slept till 5.40!!!!
So for the first time in 15months she actually slept all bloody night!!!
I can't believe it. Dh got up with her just so she didn't expect a feed.
Hopefully its a direct result of night weaning and not just some cruel coincidence!!!

It probably depends on the personality of the baby what form of night weaning works. We tried offering DS water - wouldn't have a bar. If we'd offered him food, it would have been thrown at us. There was also no other way under the sun that he would settle for anything other than boob for me. Gradual weaning (tried many times) just didn't work at all for us. On the off chance that he'd go to sleep without boob, it could only be done holding and white noise blasted into his ear, then instantly awake, or asleep for 30 mins max, once you thought he was heavily asleep enough to put back in his cot. It was no better, and less effective, than just boobing him. I suppose it depends what model of baby DT the Bulimic is

Yes! Yes! Agree with elph completely. :o

Totally agree.

Dt the Bullimic is in Big Trouble for being sick every last morsel of his tea. He choked on literally his last mouthful of pear. We had the lot back up, overflowing everywhere, the works. Do you think he knows I was thinking of dropping that last feed?!

I will give it a few more nights, as though it may not be working, I am currently just about functioning on this non-sleep.

I did cry today though. More end of tether crying. I'd been up since 5:30 with DT the Terrible, took all 3 to playgroup, home, naps, jigsaws and glitterglue with dd (groan) lunch, all in the garden, some messing about with water, took them to the playground (loaded them all into my triple buggy, got out the gate, realised I had a huge puncture, baxk in, Dt2 on my back, the others in my double buggy, take 2) managed to stop them topping themselves at the playground (huge task I find, I rarely take them alone, too stressful) home, tea- then dd pushed Dt2- my sweet, wobbly little Dt2, over the backdoor threshold. He has the most enormous egg on his head, huge bruise/scrape/graze on his leg, argh! I tried time out for dd- as pushing them over and snatching is her current thing- it didn't work. she won't stay on the naughty step, with the boys to supervise I can't keep up putting her back so I was shutting her in the study and she was howling and the boys found it all distressing... A disaster. Today I started more positive parenting, so a sticker chart where all kind behaviour and listening to mummy etc gets a sticker, 3 stickers = a reward (extra programme on tv after tea, bubble bath or extra book offered). She was so excited, today was going so much better...then that after a few near misses/lose sticker threats. Honestly, the boys are black and blue from being pushed over atm. So what did I do to help the situation? Sob, as Dt2 was clearly hurt, dd is being so horrible, and I'm too tired to cope properly... What would you do about the behaviour?? Is it also playing up a tired mummy?

feek!!! Amazing! Long may it last! One night and you've cracked it would be awesome.

I can empathise with vomiting an entire meal on the last mouthful. DS (biggest boob monster of them all, as has probably become evident) couldn't have given a fiddler's fart about solids at home to begin with and was an awful, awful gagger for aaaaaaages. He'd finally got through what could have been considered an actual portion size of cauliflower and broccoli cheese for the very first time when he was about eight months old, when a floret wrapped itself awkwardly around a tonsil and the whole lot came back up. I had to sit quietly in the corner for a bit, holding my face. Tightly.

I will not insult you by suggesting I have empathy for managing three under three. I suppose working full-time with one non-sleeper vaguely approximates the same bone-aching weariness, but at least I can have the luxury of an unaccompanied toilet break, or can structure my day to a certain extent around my fatigue, without resorting to a grave error like glitter glue (two substances which should never be mixed, surely?)

Dreaming, I salute you. I can only shake my head in awe and hope one of the others with older DCs has some advice.

Hello all, well we have had a few successful nights of 5 straight hours sleep, but teething keeps throwing spanners in the works. Stitch is grizzly and clingy all day long at the moment.

Glad to hear nights are better Elph and Hear.

Hope the one night turns into many Fee.

Commiserations to those still struggling.

Dreaming, does your dd get any one to one time with you? I know for me that dd1 is much better behaved when she has had that time.

So last night every time I dropped off Stitch woke. At 3am I was still awake, but at least the next dose of ibuprofen kicked in then so I got 3 hours sleep until 6 with her in our bed. DH is finally understanding what I mean by a bad night, generally he sleeps through it all. He actually suggested I go to bed at 9pm tonight and phone my mum for some respite.

Up at 4am and full of the joys here. How, HOW does he then manage to keep going until a nap at 12 noon? HOW?

I discovered he's quite fond of coffee (he seized my lukewarm cup of decaf and lapped at it very enthusiastically the other day). Maybe he's just been hitting my Gaggia on the quiet all this time...

So we had a few days where DD (10 months) slept in her cot fine, waking up 2-3 times. Bliss.

Now her fist tooth has broke through the gum and she's back fussy and wakeful as ever.

Some nights she doesn't fall asleep till 10pm, other nights she's wrote off by 7:30pm... but no matter what, she'll be up within about 90mins for around two hours then any sort of devilment during the night hours. I'm knackered.

Is it over-tiredness? Have tried to move her naps all sorts of different times, including trying to get her to take one longer nap of around 2 hours in midday, rather than 2 shorter hour naps in AM and PM. Doesn't make a button of difference.

Also, she's never been put down to sleep when still awake so she has no idea how to self-settle. Any attempts have = vomiting, screaming, opening bedroom door herself as handle is near cot.

I am a shape. A tired mess.

The only hard and fast rule I have with naps is none after 3pm. DS is ostensibly a one-nap-a-day man now but if he has two, I don't mind, so long as the second one doesn't extend past 3pm. If they do, he's like the Amazing Bouncing Ferret until well after 7pm. Sorry to ask what might be a patronising question Needles but do you have a bedtime routine, starting at the same time every day?

Also, FWIW, DS still feeds to sleep every night at 7pm and for every nap he has at home (they rock him to sleep in a pram at nursery) so the theory that the way they go to sleep initially is how they'll expect to return to sleep forevermore is hooey. Don't beat yourself up about it - t'is no odds

Thanks elphaba. Only slightly patronised but I am kicking myself for not being able to remember what I did with DS when he was a baby. He's only 3.5 years old now, wasn't that long ago!

Yes, have bedtime routine, although it's flexible to about 30 mins earlier/later depending on what is happening with both kids.

Usually, dinner, supper over by 6pm, jammies on and bottle at 6:45pm, gets to play a tiny bit with DS and gets story with him before he goes to bed at 7:30pm. Then aim for 8pm for DD to be in bed.

If DH is home then we'll sort a child each, but if it's just me then I can't get her to bed any earlier as DS will just be noisy and disturb her :(

Biggest issue is my only method of getting her to sleep was breastfeeding to sleep, but now that doesn't work. Sometimes carrying her in sling does, which is good!

Just wish I knew how to settle her without the breast and to get her to self settle!

elph, very kind of you, no sleep after 1:30pm here!!! Mine are nearly 15 months though.

My half arsed attempt at sleep training may be having some impact. We have now has a 5 hour stretch of Sleep, twice!!! I am the only one going to him though. And oh, yes, one of those 5 hours didn't really count as I decided to give up at midnight, fed him, brought him in with me, and was rubbing my eyes in disbelief at 5am!! Then bf, 45 min of rocking and he slept 6-7:15. Winner winner chicken dinner. However, diarrhoea yesterday, vomiting again today. He's doing a dairy challenge but eaten hardly any- 1 teaspoon of yoghurt and part of a malted milk biscuit. Intolerance d&v as per a month or so ago?! Doesn't seem ill, or like a bug at all. For fucks sake. Glad we've finally got a paeds appointment Monday. Bedtime is slightly improving too. But midnight feed every night. I know it'll be another big push to drop that one, and i can't face it yet...

stitch call in the reinforcements!!! I think 1:1 time is good. I can only manage it if both babies nap at the same time, and then I confess I often do as many jobs as possible, laundry, getting tea prepared for the slow cooker etc etc. I do sometimes just play with her instead though, we spent a double-nap time on Tuesday doing puzzles together so chicken nuggets and waffles for tea, yet again Poor stitch is really suffering with those teeth. How many left to come?! One day, this too shall pass. But until then, yes, summon the grandparents!

needles my half arsed attempt at sleep training is attempting to tackle that problem. Can't be crying involved as he just vomits. So I'm putting him in the cot, he stands straight up, I cuddle, lie him down, shush, pat, sing, anything to help him settle. At first I was having to cuddle/ rock etc for ages, 30 secs in cot, repeat. Now I'm picking up, no rocking or minimal, putting down. He's still needing stroking, patting or jiggling to drop off and still waking 9,10&11 pm as per usual, but i never got him down without boob before so ? small improvement. Baby steps, baby steps. I am spending no time at midnight, just feed him and put back in cot. By then I've lost the will :) . If he wakes before 4:30 I'm not feeding, but am at anything from 4:30 on. So very softly softly probably ineffective approach. However he's never slept for 5 hours twice in a row before. Hrs only ever done it once before in his whole life, full stop! This may not help you at all but thought I'd share.