Misery loves company: riding the mo fo out into Part II

[ElphabaTheGreen]

In our last exciting instalments:

Needles was at breaking point with a screaming 10 mo DD

Hear had experienced the magic of ONE unbroken night!

Dreaming was continuing to confound all with her ability to manage three children on four or five minutes a night, thanks to DT the Terrible.

Stitch was still having her sleep eaten by...erm...Stitch.

Poppy was pondering how the actual fark she was going to manage a newborn on top of BabyAmex's night time shenanigans.

And the desperate Elphaba had turned night duties entirely over to DH with mastitic results.

Join us with your stories of misery and woe in this, the most sleep-deprived corner of MN!

[AnotherStitchInTime]

No SCBU it was touch and go as he had transient tachypnea (faster breathing due to fluid in lungs), but once he managed to feed from me and have skin to skin it settled down.

[HearMyRoar]

I don't want to curse anything but I think we might have maybe solved the late bedtime issue a bit for dd. We have moved her nap time to 11am so she sleeps before lunch rather then after lunch at 12:30.

She has been doing this quite a bit when at home over the weekend but we hadn't ask nursery to change as we didn't want to bother them. However, we got chatting with one of the staff about it and she said it was no bother so we started this week and she has been going to sleep slightly earlier every night.

Tonight she was asleep by 7.45! This is despite now napping for 1.5 to 2hrs instead of 1. She has been a bit stressy in the evening but I think this is just due to the change in routine and will settle down once she gets used to it and the bedtimes have got sorted.

The SMBD plan is also going well. Half way across the room and no problems yet. Have realised I'll have to sorry out curtains for the hall before I can move out the door though.

[PoppyAmex]

I haven't had time to catch up with everyone yet, but is there new babies?! Surely yes, as it's been ages. Tell me things, please?

DS is now 7 months and this sums up my life:

1. History repeats itself
   
2. I wish I could kick everyone who said "you'll get a sleeping baby this time, you'll see". Kick them hard.

[ChocolateIsMySleep]

Fuck it just wrote bloody long post and stupid internet ate it!

Will try and summarise as can't be arsed to type it all again. Maybe the internet is trying to tell me I'm too verbose?!

PS Its Charlie after a NC as decided I should be more subtle when bitching!

[ChocolateIsMySleep]

So am back from Spain and been trying to catch up on all the sleep shenanigans during my absence!

Dreaming - am excited you have started with Ann and things seem to be getting off to a reasonably good start. Fingers crossed for continued improvement until you have a bunch of sleep stars like Elph's DS!

Bald, DD1 was 2 days early and DD2 was 13 (very nearly 14) days overdue (and even then only turned up after a good prod from the MW). I refused routine induction because I was scared shitless of it and needing an epi and ending up with either ventouse or EMCS. Instead had very intense 3 hour labour, pretty much straight into 1.5 minute contractions every 2.5 - 3 minutes so could hardly breathe. Decided that I would definitely have needed an epi if I had been induced!

Hear I am also way down south (right on the coast in fact so hard to get much further south!)!

So, updates from my end:

The good news - DD1 was very good at going to bed without any fuss virtually every night and nap time in Spain - we had a couple of battles but nothing too traumatic. She has also slept through every night for the last week, bar Tuesday when she did a poo at 11pm which was very bizarre and not at all like her. Hopefully we will now have a good spell until the next tooth/illness comes along.

The not so good news - DD1 had ear infection on night 1 of the holiday with boiling temperature in 30 degree heat. She barely slept for about 3 days (and nights) despite antibiotics and calpol/ibuprofen and on night 3 when we thought we might try and leave the villa to get some food she threw the biggest tantrum of all time in the restaurant. We had to take it in turns to bolt down our food while she lay on the floor on the back terrace and screamed her head off in rage. We didn't leave the villa again for 4 days…

The more not so good news - DD1 recovered after a week then DD2 promptly gave up sleeping. Went into panic mode thinking she had hit the same gigantic sleep regression that DD1 did at exactly the same age (5.5 months). Decided that was going to have to do some sort of sleep training (as gentle as possible) on return from holiday. Then DD2 got a slightly sticky eye. This is not unusual, she has been prone from birth so didn't worry too much. Was a bit more concerned on Sunday as hadn't cleared up and seemed to be getting a bit worse. However, didn't want to take her to chemist and doctors was closed. We were flying back the following day anyway. Went to GP Monday afternoon as soon as we landed. GP prescribed antibiotics and wanted to see her the next morning. Following morning she was still not happy so sent us off to paediatrician at hospital who diagnosed cellulitis and promptly admitted her for 48 hours of IV antibiotics every 6 hours. Poor little pickle had a horrendous time while they were trying to get the canula in, it took about 10 goes in the end, both hands, one foot and eventually in her arm which bled so much there was blood everywhere.

We finally made it home a few hours ago with another week's worth of oral and topical antibiotics.

Feel like a terrible mum for not realising how bad it was - I hadn't even realised she had a temperature as it has been so hot in Spain and she only felt warm rather than hot.

She has also been pretty good the last three nights, with only 1 wake up between 11ish and 6 am, even sleeping through her IV meds! Hopefully this will continue and maybe we'll even get some more 5 hour stretches!

[ChocolateIsMySleep]

Oh dear that was meant to be a summary?!

[ElphabaTheGreen]

Sorry, Chocolate, you're not selling holidays with tiny child/ren to me at all Cellulitis?? With sticky eyes?? WTF?! I thought that was just something immune-compromised people got in their legs!

Poppy! I think the only new baby since your last visit is Stitch Mk 3. Both Bald and I are ready to pop - Bald may be in labour as we speak. I've got another five or six weeks til DS2 arrives. Dreaming wants no. 4 because she's fucking insane but her DH is not in agreement and Hear has been eternally put off more children. I think that's the summary.

That's an interesting twist, Hear but it does make some sense. You're lucky that nursery can accommodate an earlier naptime - I don't think DS's could. They have lunch around 11/11:30 then get marched through to the soft play area where their beds get laid out and they have a mass sleep. Where, I believe, DS just lies down and goes to sleep without complaint. Home is a different matter entirely, but at least we get there in the end these days!

[DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep]

Really quick but chocolate sound horrendous

hear Ann has done the opposite to me. pushed me to change my boys naps from 11 am (which suits me perfectly, they fall.asleep in car on way home.from.playgroup or their beds if we're in, fits in with 12pm preschool pickup 2 week as either put them.down 15 min earlier, wake and straight into buggy to get dd or put in buggy and walk for nap to collect dd) to lunch at 11:30 nap at 12. dt2 fine with this dt1 so difficult. Plus struggling to get them to eat then if we have had a snack at a playgroup/ friends house. so... maybe I'll try my normal.thing today and see if bedtime still goes better.

popp y everyone told.me. The second one/s would sleep better and I'd like to stab everyone who said so.

[DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep]

Oh and my.dad is a retired ophthalmologist elph and occular cellulitis scares the shit out of me

[ElphabaTheGreen]

Dreaming I do my own thing with DS's naps at the weekend and it makes no difference at all to bedtime or night sleep. Early nap in the car on Saturday because we go swimming at 1pm, then whenever suits us on a Sunday. He is in an Ann-friendly pattern at nursery during the week, though, so I don't know if that makes a difference to the bigger picture. I sincerely doubt it somehow. DS's naps have never had any influence on his night time sleep, unless they run really late, and generally all that means is a later bed time. When his sleep was shit, it was no shitter than usual, and now that he's a champ, it stays brilliant He's obviously started dreaming quite vividly of late as well. The nocturnal conversations we can hear down the baby monitor are quite hilarious

Ocular cellulitis? Ugh. That's something I hope I never hear of again.

[ChocolateIsMySleep]

Dreaming and Elph, it has certainly scared the shit out of me, although I was careful to leave google alone as much as possible. I may now revert to PFBitis and pretty much move into the doctors surgery at the first sign of a sniffle from either of them.

Elph I'm also not convinced about the sanity of taking small children on holiday, its bloody hard work whether you're at home or away, and although sunshine and swimming pools are lovely, they bring their own complications - cue screaming tantrums five times a day as I wrestle a now extremely slippery toddler to try and apply sunscreen and/or attempt to persuade her to wear a hat (mostly failing). It was lovely for the girls to spend so much time with my mum though, and she was a superstar with DD1, who slept with her for the first three nights as her room had air con. Meant I got a few minutes sleep in between applying medication to DD1 and feeding DD2 which I probably would not have got if I'd been at home as OH is shit at night time stuff.

However, we still have France and Turkey this year to endure enjoy. We're off to France in a week's time to a Eurocamp place. However, forecast is pretty awful and apparently the baby kids club (the whole bloody reason I agreed to going) shuts for the summer the day we arrive…

Re naps, I do find that if DD1 has had a good nap, i.e. gone down well and slept for 1.5 to 2 hours, she is more likely sleep through the night. Timing doesn't seem to make a massive difference though unless she sleep past 2.30. Her naps is anything from 11.30 to 12.30 depending on wake up time and what she has been up to. Falling asleep in the car is the worst thing that can happen though as I can't transfer her so then she usually ends up with a crap nap and all hell breaks loose late afternoon/bedtime from over tiredness.

Poppy, I also got the "second babies are so much easier/sleep better/fit in around you" crap. Total bloody nonsense. DD2 is a very windy baby and much less settled than DD1. She barely slept as a newborn, and didn't sleep in her bedside crib at all till she was about 8 weeks - before that it was the sling or my chest or nothing.

By this age, DD1 would fall asleep in her cot without any assistance from me. DD2 has to be fed or rocked to sleep and placed down with extreme care. Made fuck-all difference to DD1's appalling sleep for the next two years!

[HearMyRoar]

Well, dd fell asleep by 7.40 today! I actually can't remember the last time she was asleep that early.

We are really lucky to have a nursery who are happy to go with individual child's needs. I don't know if it's because it is Montessori (i confess we only choose it because it was nearest, i don't know anything about Montessori at all), but they have always been great at accommodating dds ever changing routines. We learnt quite early that it always works out better to go with whatever dds natural body clock wanted then try and impose a routine on her. She had been wanting 11am nap time for a while but I think only doing it 3 days when at home and still having the 12.30 on 4 days meant it just wasn't consistent enough to make any difference.

chocolate I think you deserve a whole other holiday just for surviving that! Without the DC obviously :)

We have opted out on a proper holiday this year. My DM very kindly gave us some money towards a holiday and rather then take a week away somewhere we are spending 2 nights in a really nice hotel in Hampstead. Is only an hour or so by train and we'll have a great time doing lots of museums and stuff. I just decided I don't have the energy for the organisation, traveling, and whatnot for anything more arduous.

[ElphabaTheGreen]

I suspect, being Montessori, it's a smaller group of children which makes adapting to individual needs a bit easier. How many are in her room, Hear? I picked DS up at lunchtime the other day and I think there were about 16 in there in one largish room with an adjoining smaller soft play area. It would be way too rowdy to settle him at a different time, unless all if the others were settling too!

[ElphabaTheGreen]

Is she still waking up at the same time in the morning, or earlier with the earlier bedtime?

[HearMyRoar]

They do have a really low child to staff ratio and have 4 small rooms downstairs and 2 upstairs for the babies, so it's easier for then to close of a room and spare a member of staff I think.

She is still waking up for morning at the same time so I'm a bit happier she is getting closer to the recommended amount of sleep then she was now as the nap is longer as well.

[DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep]

Hello,
This is the first time I've posted from a laptop in months so I shall make the most of it and try to make it more intelligable than normal

Well, Ann is still adamant I try to keep the later nap. She says they should be ready to go back to sleep about 5.5 hours after they've woken so waking at 12 is too early and I should still try to put them down at that time intead. I find it hard in the eening getting them all in, shoes off, hands washed, eating, then tryin got at least put plates in the dishwasher, and then get them to tidy up and put the bath on to run and then get all shoes on again and back outside (tried to suggest we play hide and seek inside- no takers) so all shoes back on, then in, make up milk beakers or the boys, all shoes off again, all upsatirs. She wants them to walk up not be carried but the only way I've found to herd them all up is to pretend to be a savage dog chasing them... It's all pretty tiring. So then we all have to check their bedtime chart, see where we're up to. Cajole all to get undressed. DD gets in fine. Boys fight about getting in. Then again about getting out. DH usually gets home about now makes a comment like 'what's for tea?' and gets 'nothing!' and a murderous look back Then they set up cushions to sit on to stop jostling for poosition in or on a bed then I have to try and prevent the boys from fighting while I read a book for each child. Today was meant to be the first night DT the Terrible went to sleep without holding a hand. I am so fucking knackered (as he's waking a bit later now to come in with us at around 11:30 often but I can't get to sleep til I know its 'for the night' and he's there and DD has a terrible cough, coughs herself awake at 4:50-5:15, 4:50 this morning and thats it for the day ) thaat I kind of copped out and told him I wouldn't hold his hand but still sat right there by the bed so he had his hands on me. Cheating I think but I just couldn't face anything else. Dread to think what Ann will say.

Anyway, I'm also worried she thinks I'm a crap mum- she sent me some links on toddler snatching/ toy taking type behvaiours. They basically encourage you to let them resolve their own conflicts. I replied to say I'd try but it's often DD snatching from gentler DT2 who then lies on the floor and screams and cries and she is not going to give it back willingly. If she snatches from DT the T he doesn't give up without a fight and will follow her around while she holds the toy above her head and scream and try to snatch it back while hitting her and doesn't give up, ever. And so I instigate turn taking and sharing or I take it away. So I emailed her that and now worry as it makes our house sound like a war zone very true mostly . I see the point too. The articles say if you always have to be there to resolve their conflict for them they won't learn themselves and will remain dependent on you. I just can't seem to put it into practice. Maybe if I just had two... As sometimes the other twin joins in on his brother's side.

[ElphabaTheGreen]

I wouldn't worry about letting him put his hand on you while he falls asleep, Dreaming. It sounds like a half step in the right direction. Ann wanted me to leave DS to walk back to his own bed, rather than being carried back, way earlier than I did, even suggesting I let him fall asleep in the floor at the gate if he wouldn't do it. I was so terrified of turning him off his room again that I just couldn't bring myself to do it. I nudged him back to his bed for quite a long time, starting by nudging the whole way, then nudging part of the way, then just standing in his room. He worked out that he was never going to win that battle, and now he gets back in his own bed fine. There have even been two occasions now where I've heard him get up before the GroClock has changed, around 5:30 or so, potter around his room, presumably gone up to the gate, then taken himself back to bed until after 6.

Maybe let him fall asleep with a hand on you again for the next few nights, and gently pull away earlier and earlier each night, going back for a few seconds only if he gets fretful, then pulling way again. You may be surprised and find he doesn't fuss nearly as much as you think he will.

[ElphabaTheGreen]

Does Ann give you any longer than the usual six weeks because you have two (plus a third to complicate things)? I would have thought it would be a longer process.

And you're not a crap parent. I was an amazing parent until I became one. Then I realised you can only do what you are physically capable of and are usually just too human to do anything more. I used to judge about routines, diet, behaviour, the lot. Now the only things that rile me are:

• people who smoke around their kids. WHO THE FUCK WOULD DO THAT?
• people who give toddlers full sugar Coke, especially if they give it in a baby bottle, 'because they like it'
• people who won't even attempt BFing because they think it's 'yucky'
• people who cram teeny tiny babies full of baby rice and rusks, especially if they've mixed it into a bottle feed, to 'help baby to sleep' (no it helps YOU to sleep, you lazy, ill-informed get)

And that's about it. You're not doing any if those things and you have three very young children that you manage on broken sleep. Hats off to you.

[DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep]

Oh good, I do none of those elph :D . I'm just tired at the minute which means I'm on the verge of being irritated so much of the time iykwim. No, no longer. she doesn't take dd into the equation as I'm not paying for her as I didn't have a problem with her sleep. she's up at 5am every day though atm. groan. I'll try and sit slightly further away tonight.

And this is it. Today I will not shout. The start of a new era. Even when dt the T whinges on about his balance bike saddle being wrong in every position I try it (really winds me up)... Even when dd is walloping her brothers and snatching from them then holding the snatched item up in the air to tease them.

Wonder if bald has another baby yet?!

[HearMyRoar]

Goodness me dreaming, with 3 of them I think you can consider any day that ends with all 3 still breathing and with the same number limbs they started with a roaring success. If they are fed, watered and occasionally clothed on top of that you deserve a parenting medal :o

When I was weaning dd off the boob holding I actually went to hand holding as an intermediate stage, then did sitting right up against her so she could snuggled against me. It took a lot of stages to get to no touching at all.

I don't get her nap thing at all. dd just doesn't sleep until 9ish with a later nap and that is only if we keep it really short. Why dont you do earlier naps if they work for now and then experiment with moving them gradually later if you want to. Not all children confirm to the standard. If our DC did what they were supposed to do with regard to sleep times and naps we wouldn't all have bloody sleep problems would we?

[DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep]

Very true hear though they have taken to her new routines well so now wail for their lunch before their nap and I can't give them lunch pre 11 am!!! Tonight he went to sleep without being as pressed up on me without too much protest. Hurrah.

Meant to say that last night Dt the T woke at 10:40 and as I was still brushing my teeth and DH managed to settle him in his bed- he then didn't come into our room til 2am- unheard of. Why? Little DD was curled up in bed with him. Totally confused DH as he tried to get into DT the T's bed and realised there was someone already in it Sibling cosleeping- the way forward?!

A quick rant too. DH can just be fucking useless (and compared to some husbands i know he is very good really). He's not on board with this sleep stuff though. Not read the articles Ann has sent. Not read her programme- just relies on me to tell him what we're doing- even though actually I'm doing it all. We have both confessed we're feeling overall a bit fed up and shattered. Mostly through refereeing their exhuasting behaviours all day... Who thought it'd be this hard?! I confess I didn't. I thought 3 under 2 would be hard it was torture I thought 3 under 3 would be hard. I didn't actually prepare myself for never feeling a let up in the slog. I'd convinced muself it'd be totally ace and mostly fun by now.

Oh, and I haven't shouted today. thank goodness- day 1 completed.

We need a new thread! Though at least we have some 'graduates' now :)

[DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep]

here ladies

[ElphabaTheGreen]

DS had no nap today, which was just brilliant since I was awake from 2:45am until sometime after 5am, then he was up for the day at 6:20am. A lie-in by his standards, but rather desperate for me as DH spent the day in bed with a migraine so couldn't give me a break. I did everything - black out blind down, curtains drawn, five thousand books read in the most monotonous tone I could muster, including Good Night Moon which usually acts on him like diazepam these days, lights out, me lying on his bed feigning sleep...nada. All he did was occasionally lie down and give me a cuddle, put one of his cars to sleep next to me, then pulled all of his toys out of his cupboard and played happily and, to his credit, quietly, on the floor. After about an hour of this, he grinned at me broadly and handed me his toy accordion. I waved the white flag, as we were at 2pm by this stage, and gave up. Fortunately, he was utterly delightful all day, despite sustaining his first ever bee sting A bit of bicarb, some chocolate buttons and a few episodes of Peppa Pig sorted him out. I wonder if he's having a good old-fashioned sleep-sapping developmental leap because his language is suddenly gathering serious pace and he's transitioning from parallel to cooperative play.

He was fast asleep by 7:15 Let's hope he's exhausted enough to stay that way until at least 6am.

My guess is Bald has dropped. I bet it's a boy.

[ElphabaTheGreen]

Ooh, x-post!

TTFN old fred...you've been a good 'un...