The 'newborn - sleep nightmare' continuation thread, Cosmosis, count, emo etc. Still a sleep nightmare?

[Bumperlicious]

Just thought I'd catch up with all of you from the last thread to see if now we've moved on from the newborn stage things are any better?

Dd2 is nearly 5 months and sleep is still hit and miss. She is not good at sleeping when out and about so mornings are either spent at home or I choose to socialise and spend the rest of the day fighting to get her to sleep.

She still rarely goes down in the evening despite me trying for 1.5 hours. Eventually goes down 11.30ish and still often wakes twice a night

Am knackered, no end in sight. How's everyone else doing?

Glad I'm not the only one who feels like that about the BW.

count just thought my co-sleeping advice is probably spectacularly unhelpful since you're in the middle of a sleep consultation. Is it past 10 days yet? Hope you can find a way to make it work for you (and we'll be here to listen to the moaning in the meantime - I feel I'm always the voice of gloom in RL. Heard someone suggesting that putting a baby in their own room would definitely make a baby sleep better and I had to say,"Didn't make a difference for us". Also find it hard not to comment when people are having when-does-it-start-to-get-better conversations - I normally say,"It might just get worse and worse - that's what it's been like for us".)

Hello all. Thanks for your messages. What would I do without this thread?!

narmada yes I remember you explaining that on another thread, and that's how we ended up getting DS to sleep in the cot rather than being rocked, having read your description. Only thing is we didn't really carry it through. So we only did it at bedtimes (tried it for naps but wimped out - too much screaming) and we only did it with one of us in the room and touching him - so unwittingly set ourselves up for a situation whereby he can only fall asleep swaddled with my hand on his tummy. He wakes in the night, arms flailing about, no hand on him ... "waaaah!!! Mummy!" It did save us so much stress by making him easy to settle but because we didn't carry it through it hasn't sorted the night wakings. Andrea's plan includes gradual withdrawal to enable him to fall asleep without us in the room but the clocks set us back so much we've not been able to do it yet. He is exactly as you describe your DD - fascinated and stimulated by everything (he rolls over and rummages in the changing basket when I do his nappy). She sounds lovely though, and very bright!

judy as you say I won't be going back to co-sleeping while we're using Andrea (we have another three weeks of her services) but might revert if this doesn't work and I get desperate! The whole idea of using Andrea was to have a plan laid out for us and avoid those 4am disagreements - the problem was DH went 'off-plan' last night and DS ended up getting confused and upset. Andrea's plan states that I should do the majority of the settling so DS learns not to associate me just with milk at night - trouble is he now won't settle as well for DH - he always used to though.

I have read the BW book and have used the EASY principle since DS was a month old, but you don't need to read the book to grasp that (just feed, play, put down for a nap and repeat) and I kind of wish I hadn't, to be honest. It made me feel really shit about rocking him to sleep even though it was the only way to stop him from screaming the place down. 'Accidental parenting' is the most teeth-itchingly passive-aggressive phrase I've had the misfortune to come across.

Anyway, spoke to Andrea earlier. I cried on the phone to her I've basically kept DS awake longer today to tire him out a bit (on her advice) so will see if that works to get back to 7pm bedtime. I am to put him down at 7pm and not get him up again - just sit there until he goes to sleep.

I told her about his reaction to the CC we attempted on the first night. She agreed that it was unusual that he was still going after an hour and a half, and that it clearly wasn't going to work for him. She sounded a bit perplexed, bless her. It is saying something that even one of the UK's foremost sleep experts is flummoxed by my DS She was absolutely lovely on the phone though.

Thank you all for your support. I will soldier on ...

Sorry about the essay

This is a bit cheesy but is a reassuring and compassionate antidote to the 'accidental parenting' bullshit.

Sorry to hear things are bad Count. I hate 'accidental parenting' too. It's not a bloody accident my DS feeds to sleep, it was on fecking purpose because he literally would not sleep any other way and after a while you just do what you need to do. All this 'prop' and 'crutch' business is effing annoying too.

Happy belated birthday Bumper! Hope you had a good one.

Nighttime sleep no better here, am working on getting DS to nap in his cot rather than the pram. Driven to it by a series of walks in the rain, not good when sleep deprived, but don't trust myself to drive at the mo.

Good nights to all.

Oh, count. Poor you. These sensitive little babies do turn out to be really, really fun to be around when they get a bit older though. My DD really made me laugh last night when she said in her most serious nearly 3 year old voice 'now mummy, i am going to sort your hair out. It looks an absolute mess' Didn't help I'd just been to the hair dressers the day before, so thank you very much, DD.

Happy belated birthday Bumper.

Hee hee - that's so cute. I bet he's going to be just like that. He was being so adorable earlier - I was tickling him and he was chuckling away - aaaaahhh.

Hi everyone, and sorry to hear things aren't getting much better Count and Pidgin. I know what you mean about the accidental parenting - it just implies such a lack of awareness and thought! Which is not the case for any of us.

Since I posted on Monday night to say I was up with earache, I've been to the doctor and been told I have a perforated eardrum . It was an infection that I left too long - didn't go to the doctor til yesterday. It's incredibly sore and means I can't really lie down, not even on the side which isn't perforated! So if I thought I was knackered before, I'm now truly past it.

DS's sleep is really not too bad compared to how it was. Since he's not been swaddled he's not been waking up so often in the evenings (touch wood) so I think maybe before he was trying to get comfy and couldn't. We're up generally three times a night - on Wed it was only twice which would have been bloody great if I could have slept!! Still struggling to get a 4 hour stretch for DS though - it's mainly 2 or 3 here.

beingblonde - that sounds awful. Do you know how long it'll take to get better? Hope you're getting some help at the moment - you must be wiped out. Glad your DS is sleeping better though - hope it continues.

Thanks for the sympathy! I have some antibiotics and the doc said it should start to feel better in 3 days. It will basically just heal itself eventually but owwww in the meantime! DH has been having eye trouble which has required lots of visits to the hospital so we are a bit rubbish at the moment - both just so run down. The good news is DS is in the rudest of health - thank god! Hope your night is going well...

oowww, beingblonde I had a perforated eardrum once, it was really painful and gunky. Hope yours gets better soon, and your DH's eye, and then you can capitalise on the not-too-bad-and-hopefully-improving sleep.

Our wee DS continues in his mysterious ways - wiggle, thrash and fight sleep till 11 pm (now nearer 12 since the hour change), then switch off until 6am when the non-sleeping, non-eating begins again. He's on some stronger antibiotics for a couple of weeks to see off any mystery infections, e.g., sinus or non-obvious ear infection. His bum's gone into overdrive as a result and he's had 3 lots of vaccinations today. Than goodness I am on the blow up mattress in blissful ignorance tonight, is all I can say.

Ow blonde - poor you! Are you any better today?

narmada poor DS. Did have to laugh at the idea of his bum going into overdrive. What a mental picture

We've had slightly better nights - awful screaming at bedtime still, though, and DS just will not settle before 8pm no matter what we try.

My 89-year-old gran is here at the moment. She's never seen DS before (she lives 4hrs away and he is so bad at sleeping on the go we've never made the trip). Luckily he has napped beautifully today so has been in a brilliant mood - grinning and charming the pants off everyone.

count glad DS is being a charmer and has napped well. Can I come and have a word with our DS?

He has been awake from 6.30 am, and has had a grand t otal of only an hour and a half's sleep since then, and that in 30 minute snatches. I have just wheeled him screaming round the neighbourhood for nearly 45 minutes, had to carry him and push the pram for the last half a mile as he just wouldn't stop.

He's had about 15 oz milk all day, refusing most feeds after drinking 3 oz. DP and I are at our wits' end, and DD alternates between crying, moaning and being introspective. We are so desperate for some medical person to come along and fix things for us, but no-one seems to have any magic answers. To top it all off, DP and I have had a mini row about sleep training - he wants to, I think it's pointless because a baby who is in so much discomfort he's stopped feeding isn';t going to magically 'get' how to sleep. DP says last night when he was dealing with DS's screaming in the evening that he wanted to get on a train and go a long way away. I know how he feels.

I have just found this thread, having come on to post a depressed post about how rubbish a mum I am because I've accidentally parented my ds so that he only sleeps on the breast and ideally lying down co-sleeping. Rather, he only re-settles like that. NOthing else will do and he screams and goes rigid if I try just holding him. He is 5 months tomorrow, we still swaddle him because he is still in the crib and would wake himself up otherwise. He only sleeps for 30-45 minutes at a time during the day. If has silent reflux too. he is currently waking 2-4 times a night. He is due to move in with his 25 month old sister soon. But I don't see how he can with such poor sleep habits. I can't help thinking it is my fault. STarting reading this thread has reassured me that at least I am not alone but I don't know what to do to sort it. If I stop co-sleeping him back to sleep I will get no sleep and my goodness am I desperate for a good nights sleep.

NOw I should try and go back to sleep since ds seems calm.

Hello allyfe and welcome. I only have one DC so not much experience but I don't think it is your fault! Some DCs just seem to need a lot of support when it comes to going to sleep.

Also agree that the BW book is unhelpful and I hate the phrase "accidental parenting". Just makes you feel even worse! A few other things in there made me go The worst was (paraphrasing) "a baby fed on demand becomes demanding"!!!!WTF.

An update from here is that I felt renewed vigour for working towards nightweaning when I last came on this thread. So I started on the restricted 5 minute feeds for the millionth time (I am stuck in a sleep training groundhog day) but once it came to reducing to 3 minutes, I wasn't able to! Now the plan is to wait until the bank holiday weekend so that DP can be involved too.

Narmada - that sounds really hard, it must be so upsetting that he is uncomfortable and you don't exactly know why / what to do to help. FWIW I agree with you that sleep training at this point would not be helpful.

I like the link you posted, Count - that website is quite good. I like the bit when the baby is talking about sleep training their mum!

On which note, happy mother's day to everyone!!

allyfe welcome and sorry your DS isn't a great sleeper. Be reassured that it's not your fault - we all do what we have to do for our babies to stop them screaming the place down keep them happy.

narmada I can't imagine what you're going through. Your poor DS :(

Raising I remember that bit in the BW about demand feeding creating demanding babies! We've been doing 3-min feeds last couple of nights and I agree it's a tough transition - DS has objected a lot more than to the previous stages. No idea how we progress to dropping the feeds altogether - suspect we'll be in for some awful screaming.

We've had a pretty shit couple of nights to be honest. Last night he woke every 1-2 hours .

hello, can i join? my daughter is 13 weeks old. she was sleeping quite nicely till three or four weeks ago when she got bronchiolitis. she was ill for about ten days and nights have been a shambles ever since. she wakes four or five times a night and i can only settle her by feeding her - and then she's not hungry in the morning, so we have a vicious cycle of her wanting to feed at night because she's not had enough during the day. i'm not sure what to do to get things back on track and am finding it all quite hard at the moment. like allyfe we had planned for her to share a bedroom with our DS (3.5yrs old) but we are miles off being able to do that as it would be hell if they were both awake all night! cant quite see the light at the end of the tunnel right now...

Hi all, am really pleased to have found this thread!

Only a month ago I was moaning about 4 1/2month old DSs 2 night feeds - fool! Roughly DS was down at 7 up at 6:30 with 2 occasionally 1 night feed - first always after midnight. No probs getting the boy back down.

Poor DS now is now going down at 7 (after time change palava is back on track) but waking anywhere from 9:30 on 3 or 4 times till morning. In the last month he has gone through a week of screaming randomly (night terrors?), then a spluttering through nights with rotten cold until finally fever and vomiting (doc suspects bug/virus) last week. He seems to be on the mend, but at night he is still up at least 3 times often only an hour apart. To get him back off to sleep I either tank him up (generally works) or rock with dummy. Generally goes down although since fever last week I have let him sleep on my chest a few times when he is really upset when put down.

Daytime naps do not always come easily - which I really worry about. Will not fall asleep unless out in pram/sling or sucking dummy (stopped feeding to sleep at a month so introduced dummy - argh). In the past 2 months have weaned him off dummy at bedtime as he just falls asleep now in cot after happily being put down wide awake (major success). When he was well would drop off in cot after night feed when put down awake. I give him the dummy for daytime naps at home and whip it away once he drops off - but cannot begin to imagine he will be able to fall asleep without it in the day in his cot. I would rock him to sleep/feed but neither of these have worked since he was a month old. I keep going with sleep cues during the day - but to no avail.

I took DS to see osteopath last week (forcep delivery) after midwife suggested it and he has started to feed to sleep/rock to sleep again. Could be effects of osteopath visit although this might be down to illness as fever broke day after visit.

What have other people's experiences been of babies post illness in terms of sleep - does a pattern return or does it make for a shift? Feel so bad for the little fellow as he is so out of sorts in the day - am not sure if this is down to bad nights or if he is still under the weather (no fever or sickness - but he is really not himself). Also any ideas for soothing at night beyond feeding/dummy? Hate that since he has been ill we have had been really reliant on using the dummy to help him back to sleep in the night having only just reduced use to daytime naps. Finally anyone else had sleep breakthrough post osteopath visit? Have read through a fair bit of this thread but not all of it so sorry if Qs been covered elsewhere.

Hope you all have restful nights - mother's day gift from the bebes!

Hello Allyfe, sotough and dangodays - sorry you're at the point where you want to join this thread but welcome!
Dangodays - I took DS to an osteopath at 4 months, we went 4 times with the last time being last week. I'm not sure if it helped but DS did become much easier to settle after the 2nd visit. We were also doing a lot of other things around the same time (an attempt at shsh pat/PUPD being one) so not sure if it was that or if it was just a developmental thing. We've introduced a dummy too and it makes me feel a bit nervous (another thing to deal with down the line....) but DS is such a sucky baby that I can't imagine how he would sleep without it. The osteo I saw said that there is some thought that sucking can help relieve tension in the skull so am telling myself it's good for him. I was planning to tell the osteo this week we weren't coming back as I wasn't sure it was helping and it is expensive but she said after the appointment this week that there was no reason she could see why he shouldn't sleep now.
DS has been sleeping better in the evenings the last couple of nights (we managed to watch a film in the evening yesterday with no interruptions for the first time since he arrived!) and doing better stretches at night. I'm trying to get him to spend longer in his cot but it's difficult as once it gets to about 1am I start to think how much easier it would be if he was in with me. I'm trying to time the feeds as well but we're only down to 8 minutes. Good luck with making the next step raising and count (hope your nights get better too).

Also meant to add for anyone who is interested that I have given up giving up dairy and it seems to be fine. I also gave DS some cheese and he chewed it quite enthusiastically (not sure if he swallowed much though). I was really convinced there was an effect when I stopped taking it but maybe I was looking for something that wasn't there.
Narmada - sounds like you're having an awful time . I'm sure you posted something to me before about dairy but is your DS on a special formula? My RL friend had loads of trouble getting a dairy free formula prescribed as it is so expensive but it really changed things for her when she got it. I guess this might have come up before now if it was the problem though.

Thanks for the response JudysDreamHorse. We have our next osteopath appointment tomorrow, so I will keep you posted. It is one of the few trips out I have planned this week as aside from little trips out, DS is either so listless or distressed he is happier at home. Luckily found the OCC nearby in Wandsworth where they take donations as opposed to set fee so we can afford to take DS but it is very expensive otherwise. I only just found out about it which is why I had delayed taking DS sooner despite midwife's advice. Are you in the London area - the OCC is lovely. The osteopath said it may take a few visits before it really helps so fingers crossed. I know what you mean about the dummy - I often worry about using it. I do think it is what has enabled DS to get used to going down at night so I think it can be really useful and gets a bad rap from some. I had heard the tension relief theory and tell myself the same thing! Have you had much luck with the shpat/pupd?

I used to co-sleep with DS until he started to sleep in his cot. It was a gradual process. Sorry if you I am asking you same qs already covered....but how are you finding co-sleeping? That's great you have had a good couple of evenings.

We had a rough night. DS went down at 7 but then up hourly from 10 to 3. Luckily had a nice run till 7:30 punctuated by one feed....what a relief. I think it might be the calmest part of a night we've had in a while. I think he was in a lot of pain - farting and leg scrunching a lot - which I suspect might be residual from being ill as he has not had this problem before.

Sotough - sounds like illness has thrown our little ones right out of a pattern. I hope your DD is feeling better.

Thanks for the response JudysDreamHorse. We have our next osteopath appointment tomorrow, so I will keep you posted. It is one of the few trips out I have planned this week as aside from little trips out, DS is either so listless or distressed he is happier at home. Luckily found the OCC nearby in Wandsworth where they take donations as opposed to set fee so we can afford to take DS but it is very expensive otherwise. I only just found out about it which is why I had delayed taking DS sooner despite midwife's advice. Are you in the London area - the OCC is lovely. The osteopath said it may take a few visits before it really helps so fingers crossed. I know what you mean about the dummy - I often worry about using it. I do think it is what has enabled DS to get used to going down at night so I think it can be really useful and gets a bad rap from some. I had heard the tension relief theory and tell myself the same thing! Have you had much luck with the shpat/pupd?

I used to co-sleep with DS until he started to sleep in his cot. It was a gradual process. Sorry if you I am asking you same qs already covered....but how are you finding co-sleeping? That's great you have had a good couple of evenings.

We had a rough night. DS went down at 7 but then up hourly from 10 to 3. Luckily had a nice run till 7:30 punctuated by one feed....what a relief. I think it might be the calmest part of a night we've had in a while. I think he was in a lot of pain - farting and leg scrunching a lot - which I suspect might be residual from being ill as he has not had this problem before.

Sotough - sounds like illness has thrown our little ones right out of a pattern. I hope your DD is feeling better.

Hello everyone
Sorry to hear lots of people having a bad time. We have taken DS2 to an osteopath a few times since he was born, but it hasn't made any difference to his sleeping patterns. Other people have had great success though I understand, so I am sure it can resolve particular problems.

After a shocker last weekend, ee had a fairly good week last week - no evening wakings, fed between 12-2, and then between 4-6, up just after 7 for three consecutive days. Then last night he woke at 11.30, then 3.30, so I knew there would be another waking before 7 and there was so that was a bit annoying. I haven't done anything differently. He's also been going beyond one sleep cycle on his morning nap, so for the first time has napped in his cot for longer than 45 mins! Up to 1.5 hrs! Introducing solids is definitely spacing out bf's during the day, making me think I can definitely bf for longer than 6 months. However, one new development is he tends to only want to feed lying down in the bed now even during the day , so just as well he is feeding less.

Judy, don't worry about introducing a dummy - in the grand scheme of things it is a small thing to tackle in the future. That's my own experience anyway, would love it if DS2 would take a dummy!

sotough, my DS2 changed his sleeping pattern at 12 weeks. No illness or anything, just stopped sleeping and he woke all the time! This has pretty much continued, I think it is very slowly getting better. However, he is not hungry in the morning either, even just from one proper feed and one very short feed in the night. Personally I don't feel that having his first feed of the day at 9am for example stops him from getting enough milk during the day. Does she cluster feed in evening? I think some babies can keep sleeping on an empty tum and some can't. By this age my DS1 was not feeding in the night, my DS2 definitely needs at least one feed. Like you though I can only settle him with a feed. Does she scream when she wakes up, because DS2 went through a real phase of that and we still have the odd night of it now, just screaming for no apparent reason every couple of hours!

narmada and count, eek, both sound nightmarish, really hope it gets better soon .

hello everyone, I've been away so just catching up. DS has had an ear infection, so sleeping all went to pot again, but seems better now. Well I say better, what I mean is he's not in the bed all clingy, he still wakes up a lot!

We're going to move him into his own room in the next month. I started back at work today (boo :( ) so waiting till that settles a bit before we do another disruption.

Sorry to see we have some new recruits, but welcome to you all. I'm expecting a bad night as he refused his milk at the CMs today - it was some I had defrosted and I think it was a bit off, it didn't smell quite right. Hey ho.

cosmosis defrosted BM sometimes has high lipase levels and smells a bit soapy. You can get rid of the whiff by scalding the milk - prob affects nutrients but might mean your DS drinks it - you don't want him reverse cycling on top of everything else do you, ugh!! Hope he is feeling fully better soon. Ear infections stink. Literally some times .