The 'newborn - sleep nightmare' continuation thread, Cosmosis, count, emo etc. Still a sleep nightmare?

[Bumperlicious]

Just thought I'd catch up with all of you from the last thread to see if now we've moved on from the newborn stage things are any better?

Dd2 is nearly 5 months and sleep is still hit and miss. She is not good at sleeping when out and about so mornings are either spent at home or I choose to socialise and spend the rest of the day fighting to get her to sleep.

She still rarely goes down in the evening despite me trying for 1.5 hours. Eventually goes down 11.30ish and still often wakes twice a night

Am knackered, no end in sight. How's everyone else doing?

Hello all.
Well, as predicted DS2 woke an hour after going to sleep because he didn't feed. But then we had a good night - he woke at 1.15am and 5.45am and up for the day at 7am. After the awful nights at the weekend I so needed some sleep. He also went back down in his cot too.

Is anyone else finding that their DC are completely not hungry when they wake up for the day? Obviously if I feed him at 5.45, he's not going to be that hungry at 7am, but I can not face a battle at that time of the morning to persuade him to go through til 7am. What would be the point? Anyway, it helps me get ready for preschool if he doesn't want to feed first thing! With DS1 I was much more routine based, but he was bottle fed by 5 months. This time I am trying to hold on to the hope that DS2 will sort himself out soon, without any training as such (just gentle pointers in the right direction).

blonde, what a nightmare not being able to sleep when your DS is! I HATE it when that happens!

blonde poor you, that really sucks!

Camper yes, I find that too. DS is usually up for around 45 mins before wanting a feed. He was like that today and he hadn't had a full feed since 10:30pm (he'd had two 5-min feeds in the night but that's it). Apparently them not being that interested in their first morning feed is a sign they no longer need night feeds. I've certainly been surprised, through gradually reducing the length of feeds, how not hungry DS really is in the night. I was giving him 2-3 20-30 min feeds in the night but now he's perfectly fine with one or two short ones. I think the shortened feed method is just as much about weaning the mother off night feeds as the baby!

Last night wasn't great. He refused to go to sleep until after 8pm because of the bloody clocks. Then he woke up at 10:25 before I had a chance to give him his dream feed (had decided to delay it slightly since he'd gone to bed late). I gave him a full feed and he fell asleep, but woke crying 10 minutes after I'd put him down (serves me right for feeding to sleep I guess). I chanced my arm at a bit of shh-ing and he went back off in seconds without being picked up, which was lucky. This was at about 11:20.

He then woke at 1:30 (5-min feed and straight back down - no problem), 3:20 (gah!! Quick reswaddle and shh, and back to sleep in seconds) and 4:40 (gaaaaah!!! What is this shit?! A dose of Calpol in case it was teeth, 5-min feed and straight back down). Up for the day at 7 - DH got him up and gave him breakfast and played with him until he wanted a feed at 7:45.

So much more frequent wakings but settled easily and twice without even feeding or taking out of the cot. No idea what to think. Totally knackered.

That's interesting about the length of feeds. So what do you do, time him and literally pop him off? And he doesn't protest?

My DS2 has a cold today and I have a sore throat too. I have dosed him up with Calpol, but there was half an hour of wailing/cuddling before going to sleep so I do not have high hopes for tonight. I am nursing a hot toddy myself!

Yup, time and pop off. He usually lets out a yelp of protest, sort of like, "Oi, what d'you think you're doing?" but he's easily pacified with a cuddle. If he was genuinely hungry he wouldn't let me hear the end of it.

I've been very surprised how little he's protested. I am giving him a dream feed at 10/10:30ish which reassures me that he's had enough milk to see him through.

Bugger, he's just woken up after an hour ... I just don't know what's going on with him at the moment ...

Would not settle. So grand total of an hour's sleep between 7 and 10. Nothing will work for this child. Nothing. We have tried everything. Feel v bleak and hopeless :(

Oh Count, try not to despair. I hope the rest of your night was a bit better. I keep telling myself, this cannot last forever!

The start of our night was crap last night, mostly down to the dreaded wind I think, but he did do one stretch of 3 hours and one of 4. Not too bad.

Thanks blonde - it's just so bloody frustrating!

BUT - he did a four and a half hour stretch - for only the second time this year! Not sure if it was just because he was knackered from the evening's shenanigans. He also woke an hour later, but I managed to shh him back to sleep. Then he did another hour and a half, then another two hours. So a bit scrappy, but not too bad. He went back to sleep v easily each time, too.

Oh dear.... But at least you did both get at least one decent stretch.

DS2 woke after an hour again - argh!! Completely stressed when he woke up, had to nurse him. So that was at 8.30pm. Put him back in cot. Went through til 12.30am. After that it was 2.30am, 4am, 5am (I think), and my DH took him at 6.30am so I could get an hours sleep before the preschool run!! I kept saying to myself "he's not well, poor thing", but the reality is that he has nights like this on a regular basis!

There is a complete difference in his crying on nights like this:

• a good night = gradual groans getting louder til I feed him
• bad night = all out screeching immediately, seems v angry (teeth? wind? annoyed at waking up? scared? what?)

Anyone else find this?

Coumt, can't remember whether you've been down this road befor but have you definitely ruled out physical causes - e.g., reflux or cow's milk protein intolerance? Have you tried cutting the latter out of your diet for a good long while, eg two weeks?

Oh god, it's mad here - DD1 (3) is in bed screaming 'but mummy I'm not tired!' and sobbing her heart out, while DS1 is in my arms finally, finally asleep after about an hour of squirming and being awake from 7am. God, he is truly, truly impossible.

Hi all

Count, hope you are ok. There just doesn't seem like a light at the end of the tunnel does there.

Dd does have different cries in the night. Not often woken with the screaming one. But she does go from moaning to crying v quickly. The other night for the first time ever she woke up cooing rather than crying, v unusual. But then she was a bugger to get back to sleep!

Not sure if there are teeth coming here but dd took 2 hours to get off to sleep last night. She just wouldn't feed properly.

I don't know if 6 months is some sort of miles stone but after coping ok for a while I feel really physically exhausted, my whole body is heavy, like the cumulative effect of the past 6 months is finally hitting me.

Yes, we have the different cries too. No rhyme or reason as to which we get!

narmada I could be wrong but I don't think there's a medical cause. DS is such a happy, smiley little chap nearly all of the time these days (except when overtired, then he's a bloody nightmare bit less cheerful). For example, the last few nights since the clocks went forward, he's not wanted to go to sleep at 7 and has screamed blue murder as soon as I turn the light out; turn it back on again and he's instantly smiling and chuckling. He just doesn't like going to sleep, I think ...

I'm trying to be more positive today. I've got upset the last two nights when he's woken halfway through the evening because that's the only time I get to myself to relax (Bumper, am sure you can relate). But I was amazed that he did a four and a half hour stretch last night. Interesting to see what tonight's like ...

Did you have a nice birthday, Bumper?

Sounds like there's not a medical cause. Have you tried a nightlight? Maybe he doesn't like the dark [clutchingdesparatelyatstrawsemoticon] although if he's anything like my hyper-alert babies that is about the worst thing you could do, illuminate the room!

Sorry, that was for you count!

Actually we've just introduced a v dim light but only because he was only settling in pitch black and we were terrified we'd never get him to sleep come British Summertime or if we went somewhere where there were no blackout blinds. As you say, lights just stimulate him.

He's still awake now and screaming at DH. We're both at our wits' end.

Sorry things are tough count. Sounds like you are getting some good stretches. Hopefully you are slowly getting there. Screaming in the evenings is so hard though. Hope it got better. Sound like everyone is having a tough time.
My big news is that I went out for dinner with mpy nct group last night! I was only out for 2 hours but was still exciting. Best of all DH managed to settle DS twice while I was away. I had thought he might scream the whole time as he wouldn't settle for him when we practised but I was determined to go. DH couldn't settle him tonight though so maybe I need to be out for it to work.
We're in such a rut of DS waking every sleep cycle in the evening. I just wish I could get him to stay asleep for a little longer - I don't think he's slept for more than 2 hours since January. I'm rereading the NCSS in the hope it might help. When I read it before I couldn't get DS to sleep reliably so it didn't seem relevant but maybe now it'll be some use.

Hurrah! After all that, positively amazing night for us. DS slept 9 to 11 then fed. Then woke and fed once from then until 6 - two 3 hour stretches!

That's great Judy! hurrah!

warning: huge moan about to follow

We have had a hideous night. DS would not settle all evening. After much to-ing and fro-ing, I eventually fed him to sleep and put him down at 9:45. He then woke at 12:50 (5 min feed, straight back down) and 3:20 (5-min feed, straight back down). I then lay awake for ages, getting more and more frustrated at not being able to get back to sleep myself. DH saw me thrashing about and gave me a cuddle to try and help me sleep. Just as I was relaxing, DS woke at 4:40. I went to get out of bed but DH stopped me, saying he'd try and settle him without a feed (I've managed it a couple of times if I've got in quick enough before he escalates).

Ten minutes later DS is still crying loudly. I go in and say to DH that nobody's getting any sleep this way and I should just give him his short feed and put him back down. DH argues that I shouldn't feed after just one hour, he'll never learn etc etc. So despite using the bloody sleep consultant we're still having the same argument over and over again.

I give DS his short feed but by now he's too upset for that to pacify him and screams when I put him in the cot. After a while I give up and try to re-feed him but by this time am sobbing uncontrollably from frustration, exhaustion and the row with DH, and he is just staring up at me open-mouthed instead of feeding. Another half hour of trying to settle him/arguing with DH, too boring to recount. Finally get him to sleep at 6am, but still couldn't sleep at all myself.

So here I am, it's 6:52am and I haven't slept since 3:20am and I have to get DS up at 7:30 to try and reset his body clock after the sodding clocks went forward and messed everything up, and this is just so fucking shit and I have no idea what to do to sort this out.

Sorry everyone, I am such dreadful company at the moment

And now DS has woken up screaming ...

Oh poor you, what a dreadful night. I do totally sympathize, it sounds a bit like my Saturday night. Last night wasn't too bad, but he was in bed with me. Fed at 10pm, then 2am, then managed to settle him back to sleep without feeding about 5am, and he woke up at 6.30am. He's still not hungry though. And I'm still knackered.

The difference is that DH and I are not arguing about it because we're in separate rooms and haven't attempted any sleep training, so he just sympathizes with me and takes him away if I need it (but I do know all about falling out with other half about sleep though, when DS1 was a toddler). Also, I guess I am not really doing anything to tackle it. I am just accepting that for now he wants feeding in the night, albeit frequently and he doesn't necessarily need it. So I attempt to settle him without feeding depending on what he sounds like, but quickly resort to feeding if this doesn't work. I figured that while I am bfing, that's what is going to happen! But then I don't know anyone still bfing at this stage, so I don't have anyone giving me any advice. I am hoping he's going to grow out of it on his own.

Having said all that, I still weep in the middle of night sometimes! You must be completely knackered. At least if you had an evening, that would be better. DS2 sometimes wakes around 8.30pm at the moment - until 12 weeks this would have been unheard of and it does my head in.

I don't have any suggestions that you won't have already tried. Other than (brace yourself), would he go to sleep do you think if you both went to bed together at 7pm? Forget having an evening for a while, I know that's hard especially with your first DC. Forget trying to sleep train, clocks, etc, just to get some sleep? A week isn't going to make any difference to him, but it may give you enough energy to tackle it head on and do what you wanted re: the sleep consultant? Not a great suggestion I know, sorry.

Thanks Camper. Glad you had an OK night.

DS just isn't one of those babies that magically goes to sleep in his parents' bed. I've heard about them but he isn't one of them! He'd just lie there fidgeting then evenntually start crying, same as in the cot. He doesn't feed to sleep in the evenings either - only after about 9pm usually. Until then he's wide awake and grinning and bouncing around after a feed.

He just napped for an hour. It took me ages to fall asleep, as usual, but think I managed half an hour. Not sure if it's made me feel better or worse.

*eventually

Ok count. Now, our DD was almost exactly like you describe your son to be. She woke frequently, wanted feeding, would not sleep our bed (oh, how we tried).

I think I've said this before but.... I'll risk repeating myself because you sound so utterly desperate and who knows, the same approach might work with your DS. I know your DS can self settle tho which is a little different from my DD at that age...

DD was about 7 months at this point and I had reached complete breaking point. One nap time I put her in her cot, sat with her, and stayed with her until she went to sleep. I cut off a piece of my dressing gown to give her to hold while she went to sleep. She screamed, and got agitated and wound up. Took over 2 hours BUT she did go to sleep. Next time same, but took less time. I think on about 4th or 5 time, left her to it in the room. By that point there wasn't much crying. Carried on like that for every day sleep and night sleep. Never fed her to sleep again (except a couple of times when she was ill and really needed boob for comfort). It wasn't a miracle cure but things got so, so much better. I am not boasting about having my baby cry, but honestly, sometimes things get so bad that it's the least worst option.

I'll tell you what, I have never ever met a child so sensitive to habit and routine as my DD, now 3. Looking back, I think she was just such a habitual creature she needed to do the same thing every time she went to bed and every night waking. Once she realised that that 'thing' was going to be snuggling with her bit of dressing gown, on her own, things did get better.

You poor thing, I really feel for you.

Sorry you had a crap night again count. Been trying to think of suggestions but I'm sure you've been through them all already. Sure you have, but have you discussed with your DH what you should do in that scenario (DS awake and screaming but fed an hour before) in the evening or some point other than the middle of the night? What decisions do you come to? Maybe you should agree that if you've managed to do things "right" for a set number of wakings you can give in on one or two. It might take longer but I'm sure you'll get there in the end. Or are you better at settling DS than your DH? It might be tougher on you for a while but maybe you should always settle him (sounds like you're not getting much sleep if your DH settles him anyway). We're pretty much doing that now though the downside is that DH feels a bit useless sometimes as he can't settle him and I'm a bit knackered.
My great night was down to co-sleeping though appreciate it doesn't work for everyone (and not hopeful it will continue). How I'm doing it is that I settle DS in the cot from bedtime and then move him through after I've fed him to sleep. Would that work? DH has been in the spare room since last week but since he's getting more sleep he gets up with DS at 6am and I get an hour of sleep without worrying.
BTW, I know you read the BW book. Do you think that helped in general? I read it when I was pregnant and it seemed to make great sense and I felt really prepared to get DS sleeping well and thought I understood that babies need to be taught to sleep. I feel now it made things worse and just won't work for a baby like DS. Everytime I do something I feel I shouldn't (rock DS to sleep or take him into bed) all these phrases from the book pop into my head like "accidental parenting" and make me feel bad. I'm sure that hasn't helped. Just curious how you felt about the book.

always made me a bit cross, too, BW book. There is nothing accidental about parenting babies who are difficult sleepers - you don't do things cos it's the easy/ nice option, but because it's the only thing that works.

One other thought about babies like your DS and my DD, count. DD1 was sort of hyper-sensitive to any and all forms of stimulation. It's like she would constantly seek out sensation and couldn't stop herself - e.g., habitually and repetitively pulled at the wallpaper in the bathroom while I changed her nappy (!). I used to think that was part of the reason she couldn't easily get off to sleep. She's still hyper-aware of her surroundings now - for example I cannot even oh-so-quietly open a sweet wrapper in the front of the car without her immediately saying 'what's that, mummy', or she will coment on the fact that she can smell I've been eating a biscuit about half an hour after I've eaten one and I'm talking to her or breathing on her for some other reason! I don't really have any advice based on those observations, apart from strip out any form of sensory stimulation in your DS's sleep environment. And just to say it does improve. I still look back with extreme fondness on a particular holiday in sweden when DD was just over 1 and slept 2 hours morning and afternoon, and all night long...................was in seventh heaven.

On a completely random note, Have you tried some avocado mush for weaning? nicely calorific, very digestible, and will at least take hunger a bit more out of the equasion.

Oh count, sorry you are having such a hard time. I can completely empathise with the sobbing in the middle of the night and with arguing with DH. My dh is still on the sofa! But then his job is getting up with DD1. I wish I had some advice for you. I hate that whole 'accidental parenting' bullshit. Make you feel like you are failing your child just by, you know, comforting them when they are upset .

We are still mostly feeding to sleep. At 3am when you know it will take 5 minutes it just seems like the easiest thing to do at the time, although not helpful in the long run.