The 'newborn - sleep nightmare' continuation thread, Cosmosis, count, emo etc. Still a sleep nightmare?

[Bumperlicious]

Just thought I'd catch up with all of you from the last thread to see if now we've moved on from the newborn stage things are any better?

Dd2 is nearly 5 months and sleep is still hit and miss. She is not good at sleeping when out and about so mornings are either spent at home or I choose to socialise and spend the rest of the day fighting to get her to sleep.

She still rarely goes down in the evening despite me trying for 1.5 hours. Eventually goes down 11.30ish and still often wakes twice a night

Am knackered, no end in sight. How's everyone else doing?

Spoke too soon. He woke an hour after the second short feed. He hasn't done that for ages. Wouldn't settle without a feed and very quickly escalated when we tried. Gave him another short feed and he seemed v upset when I unlatched him but he did settle after that, albeit only for an hour and a half.

So he has actually slept considerably worse than usual, and I was so stressed that I didn't sleep at all between 3.30 and 5.30 and just when I got back to sleep DS woke me up again :(

This is never going to work.

Count . I am sorry to hear it was so hard. That sounds like a nightmare, poor you. I am really dreading this.

For those looking for a cheap consultation option, the baby sleep answers website offers week-long consultation via email for £50. I am booking one for DS. You tell them your routine and goals and they help you work out how you're going to get there. Sounds too good to ne true but I thought it might get us started at least. The forum looks quite helpful too. The book has the virtue of being short and simple.

Oh Count, what a shame the first night was so hard for you. Maybe it's a case of things getting worse before they get better? I hope Andrea continues to support you.

By the way, is DS the only child in the world who won't sleep in his parents' bed?! He woke at 5.20 this morning, disturbed by clattering from DH who had to get an early train, and after attempts to get him back to sleep failed I brought him into bed. After 20 minutes of him thrashing around and clawing at my face, babbling and playing with the duvet, I gave in and got up. HATE it when the day starts with a 5!!!!

Pidgin, I don't know what you do with CC, it's one of the reasons I don't want to do it as I think if he's crying, nothing other than a proper cuddle and rock etc will console him and I don't think you are supposed to do that.

I know they say cc can be done after 6mo but I don't think DS would be ready for it at all yet, maybe 12mo when he can understand words a bit more.

Count sorry you had such a bad night :(

blonde No, my DS is similarly rubbish at co-sleeping. I never really understood why people suggest it for non-sleeping babies. It's just as much of a palaver getting him to settle in our bed as it is his cot, so we might as well put him in his cot!

DS fell asleep on the boob at 6:30am (whoops) so I got some sleep at least. Have had an email back from Andrea saying we should persevere and it'll get worse before it gets better. It is horrible but we don't have much choice really - we have to at least try to get DS sleeping better for all our benefit.

Going to email back and ask how she suggests we approach bedtime for the next few nights seeing as rapid return was such a disaster.

I do thinks she is right about it getting worse first, after all you are changing his routine and he will be a bit confused and fighting it. I know when I stopped feeding DS to sleep there was a lot of crying at first, but they were definitely angry tears not sad.

Yes, the crying after the shortened feeds was definitely annoyed crying. It was very distinct from the distressed screaming at the start of the evening. Once that started I knew we had to stop it straight away

Feel so guilty about that. Never again :( :(

don't feel guilty count, you are only trying to do what is best for him and you won't have done him any harm.

Count - I just wanted to let you know that when we started our similar plan with DS (restricting night feeds to 5 mins) he was awake every hour the first night. I think it was the same the next night then he settled into 2 hourly wake ups. (We haven't progressed the plan any further due to illness etc).

So you may indeed find things better tonight. Our worst night so far was definitely the first one.

Thanks everyone. Really helps to have this support.

Raising, were you going to try for full night weaning? ie 7-6 no feeds? I am finding that element a bit extreme TBH but Andrea is quite insistent on this point. But dreamfeeding is clearly working fine for Enoon. I find it difficult to unlatch DS because I keep thinking he is hungry, but then I guess he wouldn't go back to sleep if he was. Enoon are Millpond advising you to drop the dreamfeed eventually or are you keeping it indefinitely?

I'm really conflicted about night weaning...based on the sleep plan I'm using from her book, yes its full night weaning. But I'm not sure my DS would be able to manage that.

He doesn't seem to take a lot in during his 5 min feeds - I had hoped that there would be one feed where it was clear he was properly hungry. Then again, 5 min feeds every 2 hours through the night is still quite a lot of milk overall.

I'm dropping down to 3 min feeds for the next 2 nights so will see how that goes.

I may try to make him go 11-6 rather than 7-6. He is older than your DS too...I do feel that 12 hour night weaning is quite harsh, I think its partly what's stopped me fully progressing with the plan tbh.

Sorry last night was so stressful count. Think everyone has said it all already but sure you won't have harmed your lovely DS and won't if you continue either. I guess the first few nights were always going to be tough and only you can tell if it is right for you in the end. At least you know more what to expect when you try again tonight and you'll still have the plan to come back to if it takes a little bit longer. Sounded really tough - is your DH helping as well?

Pidgin - my HV originally said that below 6 months you should put them in the cot and stay with them and not pick them up rather than full on CC where you leave the room. I didn't think it would work for us but maybe it's something you could look into and try?

Beingblonde - funny you mentioned co-sleeping as we made the decision yesterday we are going to go down that route for a while. I think it helped that I sometimes would feed DS lying down and we would both fall asleep. I've never tried taking him under the duvet but have him on top of the covers in a sleeping bag. Our plan is now to settle DS in the cot and keep resettling there through the evening. I'll then take him into bed with me around 10.30pm/11pm when I first refeed him. I did it last night and it was so much better for me - I can't cope with him waking every hour anymore. He woke only 1 or 2 times between 11 and 5.15am that I can remember. Even though I fed him sitting up I can't remember when it was). He still woke at 5.15am and there was nothing I could do to get him back to sleep . Not sure if this is another rod for my back but will see how it goes for a week anyway and still work on getting him to self settle at the beginning of the night. I'm also planning to let him feed for as long as he wants at 11pm and then try the reducing the feeds by a minute at the others. I'm not sure if this is a good plan but it feels like something I can do. One thing the nursery nurse helped me with is having a bit more confidence to just do something that would work for us and not worry about taking him into bed with us (I thought she would really disapprove of that). Anyway, sorry for mammoth post but maybe if you do want to try and co-sleep you could try it that way and move him in after he has fed to sleep (if he does that).

Yes, I was thinking 11-6 to start with. I might have to just cheat and feed him at 10:30! But then if it throws the rest of the plan out I will blame myself.

Oh god oh god oh god this is so, so hard.

X-post judy - glad you had a better night.

Hi Count, sorry you are having such a hard time. Sounds like it's been tough - I'm sure that it will get easier though, like the others have said, I think the first times are the hardest. I found my DD screamed the loudest just before she went to sleep when I first did shush pat for naps, she did this about three or four times I think (not for every nap) and it was really really hard. I think she only cried for 10 -15 minutes at the very worst, but it was horrible. The only way I got through it was to think - I've put her through this much already, if we stop now, I've put her through all this for nothing, so I need to hold on and see it through. It helped that I had seen her go to sleep from full on screaming before, when driving back to London and she had a meltdown - we couldn't stop and she eventually fell asleep, so I knew that it would happen eventually.

Millpond say to start weaning her off the dream feed once she has been sleeping through consistently, in my own time, just so we can go out and not worry about rushing back or organising a dream feed. At the minute I give her a dream feed about 930 - 945 before I go to bed. I'm to cut back a minute every 3-4 nights. Bit worried as DD is very hungry when she gets up, but will try it, possibly starting next week.

Good luck for tonight.

One thing though - Millpond said it was really important to have her on three meals a day before starting restricting the night feeds, so that I knew she wasn't hungry. TBH, I didn't really buy this, if DD was crying for food, I would really struggle to not feed her even if she had had three meals a day. But I've been trying to fill her up properly on solids at every meal, then offering a breast feed after, so when I put her down for naps, I KNOW she can't be hungry. She now isn't waking for food in the night anyway - whether this is because of shush pat or solids, who knows.

I know you guys are doing BLW (hats off coz I am nowhere near patient enough), so that's an important difference - frankly I am trying to fill DD up as much as possible during the day!

I see what you mean Enoon re three meals a day. I thought that they got most of their calories from milk until they're a year old? "Food is fun until they're one" and all that. In fact, I've heard that weaning can make babies hungrier because their bellies are stuffed with carrot puree or whatever so they don't have room for milk, which is what gives them calories. So much conflicting advice out there. V confusing.

So, night 2. Andrea suggested we go back to settling DS in the usual way tonight - ie hand on tummy in the cot - and we'll work out how to get him falling asleep alone later. But I am still to limit feeds to 10 minutes and put him down awake afterwards. That bit wasn't too bad last night

I've made one tweak and kept the light from the clock radio on rather than having him fall asleep in pitch black. This is partly to prepare for the lighter evenings/holidays etc but also to make it easier to do gradual withdrawal - if we kept it pitch black he wouldn't be able to see us moving the chair away etc. I thought I would have a job settling him because he's so nosy, but he went right to sleep. So at least the night's started better than yesterday ...

BTW am not doing pure BLW. I'm giving him finger food and mashed stuff at each meal so he gets to play and learns to feed himself, but gets to eat something too - he really gobbles up yoghurt and mashed banana so he's clearly liking his food but is struggling a bit with swallowing finger foods. So today at lunch he had toast soldiers with mashed banana on to suck away at, then I gave him banana sticks, then a bit of mashed banana off a spoon. Then spent all afternoon enjoying the whiff of banana-flavoured bottom burps ...

Hello all

Count I am sorry you had such a tough time. Complete night weaning at this age seems quite harsh, but you have to do whatever feels right. I really hope it starts having an effect for you.

Things here are erratic as usual. We actually had two evenings where she went down (eventually) and I had to dream feed her, but then she woke at 2 and then 6 by which time I find it hard to get back off.

Next night she went down for an hour or so then up again, and we gave up trying to settle her, back down again about 9.30 and decided to risk not dream feeding and she didn't wake up till half 3.

She is down again this evening. We seem to have progressed from not going down in the evenings and/or me spending the whole evening stuck trying to feed her to sleep, to at least an hour or two in the evening after having to go and feed her back off 2 or 3 times.

I've been half heartedly trying the Pantley Pull Off method on her, but the only time the feeding to sleep thing is an issue is in the evenings (usually anyway, sometimes I just can't get her to settle the whole day). At night I just feel too tired to concentrate and I know she will go off fine is I just leave her to it while I doze.

She is also still swaddled. Have no idea how to progress from that.

The one good thing going on is the BLW. She is doing fab, not turned her nose up at anything, jambalaya, broccolli, courgette frittatta, quiche. She loves cucumber, and today was sucking the life out of a Clementine. TBH I'm less purist than I was with DD1 and have been spoonfeeding a little, but mostly I just load the spoon up for her and she shoves it in. I even got her eating some porridge for tea today, she seemed more keen when I just let her feed herself. Can't say it has helped the sleep yet, but here's hoping.

Arrgh that's her stirring now!

Count, I was about the three meals as well - I had heard the same about the 70% 30% too. DD is still b-feeding as much as before I think! Sounds like the weaning is going well, DD didn't get the hang of it for ages and still is quite fussy. I do the same - some finger foods and some spoon feeding. She definitely prefers to be in charge but mostly spreads food all over the table and her face instead of eating it. Am v impressed by Bumper's DD eating all those different things!

Oh god the banana poos though ! Worse than banana bottom burps!

I did the same with dd1 and she is fussy as hell! So I think as with the sleep you get what you're given. Aitch's BLW blog forums are great for recipe ideas.

Bumper yes, it does seem harsh, doesn't it? Been reading Pantley again today and she says many babies still need night feeds until 9 months old. Think I'm going to keep a sneaky dream feed in ...

Great news about the BLW. Jambalaya!

Re swaddling, we've just bitten the bullet on that with DS, TBH, as figured his sleep couldn't get much worse, and we're working on gradually weaning him off it. DH started trying daytime naps with one arm out once in a while and it wasn't as bad as we thought (though I tend to keep him swaddled when it's just me and DS during the week because I can't be doing with faffing round resettling him). At night he sleeps in a grobag - 6-18 month size, which is gigantic, like a christening gown - I tuck it into the end of the cot so it feels cosy and stops his legs flapping about. Then for his arms, I swaddle his top half loosely with a small cellular blanket over the grobag. He usually gets an arm out at some point while he goes off, but wrapping him up seems to settle him in the cot and his arms don't seem to wake him the way they did before, so if one gets out I just leave him like that.

He slept for three and a quarter hours this evening and didn't even grumble at being unlatched after 10 minutes - in fact he was already half asleep (whoops, mustn't feed to sleep) ... he's gone off in his cot v easily so fingers crossed for a slightly better night.

bumper it does sound as though things are improving for you a little, and well done on the food!

Hope everyone's nights were reasonable. We have come to the conclusion that he had finally outgrown his basket, which I have been praying wil not happen as it means his own room - ours is too small for the cot (even with the basket I can't open my wardrobe). which means getting out of bed a million times a night. We are hoping that maybe his sleep will miraculously improve if he's got more space and nothing to disturb him.

Cosmosis hope the move to his own room goes well for your DS!

Last night was interesting. DS woke every two hours again but mostly took the short feeds in his stride, going right back to sleep in the cot after each one, except for one around 1am when he got really upset and wouldn't settle - I was convinced he was still hungry, so after quite a bit of crying, gave him another 10mins and although he grumbled about being unlatched he did settle from wide awake after that. He also let out a little shout at one point in the early hours but went back to sleep, which is an encouraging sign.

Last night proved to me (not that I really needed convincing) that full night weaning is far too extreme. Spoke to Andrea today and we've agreed I'll do a dreamfeed at 10pm so I have more confidence limiting the feeds between 11 and 6. She was a bit about it but agreed that I am the one who has to implement this plan and that I need to be comfortable with it if it's to be successful. It does seem a bit nuts to insist on full night weaning at this age - even Weissbluth (Mr Cry-It-Out himself) says many babies need one or two night feeds until nine months! I mean, it's fine if your baby can handle it, but not at all convinced that DS can yet.

Anyway, at least we have a plan. If tonight goes OK, might drop down to 7-min feeds at the weekend.

In other news, I have an appointment with a counsellor on Monday for an initial assessment. My GP said today that my test scores indicated 'moderate' PND. Still, I have felt much better since contacting Andrea and knowing we're working towards a solution.